Re: [Tagging] Area with restaurants, hotels, cinemas - is it landuse=commercial?

2018-11-01 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer 


sent from a phone

> On 1. Nov 2018, at 15:47, bkil  wrote:
> 
> I initially disliked the idea of only tagging retail landuse for mixed-use 
> urban centers, but it makes sense based on the need to tag one feature on one 
> area, and the limited options for rendering maps with overlapping landuse.


I still believe we could have landuse for mixed areas. It was my first proposal 
in OSM, ten years ago:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/centre_zone

and I had almost forgotten about it ;-)

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Re: [Tagging] Area with restaurants, hotels, cinemas - is it landuse=commercial?

2018-11-01 Thread bkil 
Yes, I agree that this sounds reasonable.
On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 1:23 AM Joseph Eisenberg
 wrote:
>
> If it’s 40 storeys of apartments above a 3 storey mall, use landuse=retail 
> for the whole mall area, and building=apartment for the residential towers. 
> The whole, larger mall building could probably be building=mall; it sounds 
> like there are several tall but narrow residential towers around or on top of 
> a bigger mall.
>
> Basically, retail is the most interesting landuse. Consider that Google shows 
> very few areas on its maps, but it does highlight retail areas as “areas of 
> interest”, because they contain the shops and restaurants that people are 
> most likely to want to search for.
>
> You only look for a new job or residence very occasionally, but most of us 
> like to eat out and shop once a week or more (even in poor countries like 
> here in Indonesia).
>
> Commercial areas are less important but are still more likely to be 
> destinations of trips, compared to residential and industrial.
>
> I initially disliked the idea of only tagging retail landuse for mixed-use 
> urban centers, but it makes sense based on the need to tag one feature on one 
> area, and the limited options for rendering maps with overlapping landuse.
> On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 8:11 AM Graeme Fitzpatrick  
> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 30 Oct 2018 at 08:51, Joseph Eisenberg  
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> We should map the most intensive landuse, from a map user standpoint. So a 
>>> mixed-use area of tall buildings would be retail. There might be condos and 
>>> apartments on the 20th to 40th floor, offices on the 10th 20th floors, a 
>>> garage for cars from floor 2 to 9, but the first couple of levels are 
>>> retail, therefore it is just as interesting as a 1 or 2 Storey retail 
>>> building for map users.
>>
>>
>> But the wiki for apartments 
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:building%3Dapartments says in part
>> "Some apartment blocks may also have retail outlets on the ground floor" 
>> with one example being
>> Residential tower - The Taikoo Shing development on Hong Kong Island 
>> involved placing a large number of tower apartment blocks above a large 
>> shopping mall.
>>
>> So wouldn't that building you described also be a building=apartment with 
>> landuse=residential?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Area with restaurants, hotels, cinemas - is it landuse=commercial?

2018-10-30 Thread Michael Patrick 
> If it’s 40 storeys of apartments above a 3 storey mall, use landuse=retail
for the whole mall area, and building=apartment for the residential towers.
The whole, larger mall building could probably be building=mall; it sounds
like there are several tall but narrow residential towers around or on top
of a bigger mall.

You're describing ( in the USA anyways) Mixed Use classification.
>From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed-use_development
*Mixed-use development is a type of urban development that blends
residential, commercial, cultural, institutional, or entertainment uses,
where those functions are physically and functionally integrated, and that
provides pedestrian connections. Mixed-use development can take the form of
a single building, a city block, or entire neighbourhoods. The term may
also be used more specifically to refer to a mixed-use real estate
development project—a building, complex of buildings, or district of a town
or city that is developed for mixed-use by a private developer, (quasi-)
governmental agency, or a combination thereof. *

In the USA, under the impetus of Growth Management legislation in most
states and metropolitan areas, the concept isn't only restricted to urban
areas.

> Commercial areas are less important but are still more likely to be
destinations of trips, compared to residential and industrial.

There is lots of trip data, but most trips are multiple pairs and or
multi-modal.
> I initially disliked the idea of only tagging retail landuse for mixed-use
> urban centers, but it makes sense based on the need to tag one feature on
> one area, and the limited options for rendering maps with overlapping
> landuse.

Back in 1994, after examining existing schemes, the APA came up with the
LBCS  as a minimal schema to make
sense of the semantics of LULC. The EU also has a similar LULC
harmonization under the INSPIRE framework
.

Michael Patrick
Data Ferret
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Re: [Tagging] Area with restaurants, hotels, cinemas - is it landuse=commercial?

2018-10-29 Thread Joseph Eisenberg 
If it’s 40 storeys of apartments above a 3 storey mall, use landuse=retail
for the whole mall area, and building=apartment for the residential towers.
The whole, larger mall building could probably be building=mall; it sounds
like there are several tall but narrow residential towers around or on top
of a bigger mall.

Basically, retail is the most interesting landuse. Consider that Google
shows very few areas on its maps, but it does highlight retail areas as
“areas of interest”, because they contain the shops and restaurants that
people are most likely to want to search for.

You only look for a new job or residence very occasionally, but most of us
like to eat out and shop once a week or more (even in poor countries like
here in Indonesia).

Commercial areas are less important but are still more likely to be
destinations of trips, compared to residential and industrial.

I initially disliked the idea of only tagging retail landuse for mixed-use
urban centers, but it makes sense based on the need to tag one feature on
one area, and the limited options for rendering maps with overlapping
landuse.
On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 8:11 AM Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, 30 Oct 2018 at 08:51, Joseph Eisenberg 
> wrote:
>
>> We should map the most intensive landuse, from a map user standpoint. So
>> a mixed-use area of tall buildings would be retail. There might be condos
>> and apartments on the 20th to 40th floor, offices on the 10th 20th floors,
>> a garage for cars from floor 2 to 9, but the first couple of levels are
>> retail, therefore it is just as interesting as a 1 or 2 Storey retail
>> building for map users.
>>
>
> But the wiki for apartments
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:building%3Dapartments says in part
> "Some apartment blocks may also have retail outlets on the ground floor"
> with one example being
> *Residential tower* - The Taikoo Shing development on Hong Kong Island
> involved placing a large number of tower apartment blocks above a large
> shopping mall.
>
> So wouldn't that building you described also be a building=apartment with
> landuse=residential?
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
> ___
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>
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Re: [Tagging] Area with restaurants, hotels, cinemas - is it landuse=commercial?

2018-10-29 Thread Graeme Fitzpatrick 
On Tue, 30 Oct 2018 at 08:51, Joseph Eisenberg 
wrote:

> We should map the most intensive landuse, from a map user standpoint. So a
> mixed-use area of tall buildings would be retail. There might be condos and
> apartments on the 20th to 40th floor, offices on the 10th 20th floors, a
> garage for cars from floor 2 to 9, but the first couple of levels are
> retail, therefore it is just as interesting as a 1 or 2 Storey retail
> building for map users.
>

But the wiki for apartments
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:building%3Dapartments says in part
"Some apartment blocks may also have retail outlets on the ground floor"
with one example being
*Residential tower* - The Taikoo Shing development on Hong Kong Island
involved placing a large number of tower apartment blocks above a large
shopping mall.

So wouldn't that building you described also be a building=apartment with
landuse=residential?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Area with restaurants, hotels, cinemas - is it landuse=commercial?

2018-10-29 Thread Joseph Eisenberg 
We should map the most intensive landuse, from a map user standpoint. So a
mixed-use area of tall buildings would be retail. There might be condos and
apartments on the 20th to 40th floor, offices on the 10th 20th floors, a
garage for cars from floor 2 to 9, but the first couple of levels are
retail, therefore it is just as interesting as a 1 or 2 Storey retail
building for map users.

I believe one of the wiki pages already suggests mapping the “highest” /
most valuable landuse. In other words, retail > commercial > industrial /
residential.
On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 6:29 AM bkil  wrote:

> I use commercial and retail landuse a lot. If you plan to do some
> refactoring, please consider that a map is most informative if it has
> distinct colours. if we applied landuse=residential on hotels, it
> would blend in with other houses. To me, mapping non-housing areas
> where some kind of commercial activities are taking place in a
> different value is a bonus. However, we probably shouldn't have more
> than a handful of colors inside the same city center, maybe 4 tops.
>
> Also, has anybody got a rule of thumb when to map a multi-use area as
> retail considering that it is common to see shops and cafes on the
> first floor of tall buildings?
> On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 9:33 PM Graeme Fitzpatrick
>  wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 at 23:23, SelfishSeahorse 
> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> - Hotels are more about services than sale, so i wouldn't use
> >> landuse=retail for them. Maybe landuse=residential?
> >
> >
> > I think that one would depend on what sort of hotel we're talking about?
> >
> > Is it a place to stay: tourism=accommodation, which would / could be
> =residential,
> > or a place to get a cold beer: amenity=pub, which I think would still be
> =retail?
> >
> >>
> >> - Cinemas: What about landuse=leisure?
> >
> >
> > There's probably a good case for landuse=leisure, but I think you'll
> probably get a few arguments against as well!
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Graeme
> >
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Re: [Tagging] Area with restaurants, hotels, cinemas - is it landuse=commercial?

2018-10-29 Thread bkil 
I use commercial and retail landuse a lot. If you plan to do some
refactoring, please consider that a map is most informative if it has
distinct colours. if we applied landuse=residential on hotels, it
would blend in with other houses. To me, mapping non-housing areas
where some kind of commercial activities are taking place in a
different value is a bonus. However, we probably shouldn't have more
than a handful of colors inside the same city center, maybe 4 tops.

Also, has anybody got a rule of thumb when to map a multi-use area as
retail considering that it is common to see shops and cafes on the
first floor of tall buildings?
On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 9:33 PM Graeme Fitzpatrick
 wrote:
>
>
>
> On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 at 23:23, SelfishSeahorse  
> wrote:
>>
>>
>> - Hotels are more about services than sale, so i wouldn't use
>> landuse=retail for them. Maybe landuse=residential?
>
>
> I think that one would depend on what sort of hotel we're talking about?
>
> Is it a place to stay: tourism=accommodation, which would / could be 
> =residential,
> or a place to get a cold beer: amenity=pub, which I think would still be 
> =retail?
>
>>
>> - Cinemas: What about landuse=leisure?
>
>
> There's probably a good case for landuse=leisure, but I think you'll probably 
> get a few arguments against as well!
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
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Re: [Tagging] Area with restaurants, hotels, cinemas - is it landuse=commercial?

2018-10-29 Thread Graeme Fitzpatrick 
On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 at 23:23, SelfishSeahorse 
wrote:

>
> - Hotels are more about services than sale, so i wouldn't use
> landuse=retail for them. Maybe landuse=residential?
>

I think that one would depend on what sort of hotel we're talking about?

Is it a place to stay: tourism=accommodation, which would / could be
=residential,
or a place to get a cold beer: amenity=pub, which I think would still be
=retail?


> - Cinemas: What about landuse=leisure?
>

There's probably a good case for landuse=leisure, but I think you'll
probably get a few arguments against as well!

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Area with restaurants, hotels, cinemas - is it landuse=commercial?

2018-10-29 Thread SelfishSeahorse 
I'm not very happy with our definition of landuse=commercial as it
isn't self-explanatory: it is mainly used for offices and warehouses,
while retail, although belonging to commerce, has its own landuse=*
value. In my opinion, it would make more sense either to tag retail as
landuse=commercial + commercial=retail or to tag different commercial
land uses with separate landuse=* values, e.g. landuse=offices,
landuse=wholesale or landuse=storage.

Concerning restaurants, hotels and cinemas:

- Restaurants are more similar to shops than to offices or
warehouses (what landuse=commercial is mainly used for), so i think
landuse=retails is ok.

- Hotels are more about services than sale, so i wouldn't use
landuse=retail for them. Maybe landuse=residential?

- Cinemas: What about landuse=leisure?

Regards

Markus

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Re: [Tagging] Area with restaurants, hotels, cinemas - is it landuse=commercial?

2018-10-29 Thread Mateusz Konieczny 
I made first edits - documenting that restaurants, fast food places, fuel 
stations areconsidered retail for landuse purposes - see 

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:landuse%3Dretail=1686815=1685021
 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:landuse%3Dcommercial=1686816=1636771
 



28. Oct 2018 22:30 by matkoni...@tutanota.com :


> > Based on my understanding of term "commercial ara" and how landuse 
> tagging is used in OSM> I think that area with restaurants, hotels, cinemas 
> fits landuse=commercial.
> But I want to confirm that before editing> 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dcommercial 
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Area with restaurants, hotels, cinemas - is it landuse=commercial?

2018-10-28 Thread Graeme Fitzpatrick 
On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 at 08:26, Daniel Koć  wrote:

> "Commercial landuse mainly deals with services and trade (tertiary sector
> ). Such area
> may consists of offices, administration, laboratories, warehouses
> (logistics park), car repair stations and their associated infrastructure
> (car parks, service roads, lawns and so-on)."
>

Not too sure why "car repair stations" would be included in that list
though, when you have shop=car_repair, which strikes me as either retail or
maybe industrial?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Area with restaurants, hotels, cinemas - is it landuse=commercial?

2018-10-28 Thread Daniel Koć 
W dniu 28.10.2018 o 23:14, Graeme Fitzpatrick pisze:
> On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 at 07:32, Mateusz Konieczny
> mailto:matkoni...@tutanota.com>> wrote:
>
> Based on my understanding of term "commercial ara" and how landuse
> tagging is used in OSM
> I think that area with restaurants, hotels, cinemas fits
> landuse=commercial.
>
>
> I would have thought that it would be =retail rather than =commercial?


I also think so - when we have two similar landuses, we should use the
one which is more specific:

1. "Commercial" landuse has been defined more general, as if it was
"offices" mainly, but also including sale:

"Commercial landuse mainly deals with services and trade (tertiary
sector ).
Such area may consists of offices, administration, laboratories,
warehouses (logistics park), car repair stations and their associated
infrastructure (car parks, service roads, lawns and so-on)."

2. Unfortunately retail is similar, but mainly about sale:

"Predominantly shops and their associated infrastructure (car parks,
service roads, lawns and so-on)."


-- 
"Excuse me, I have some growing up to do" [P. Gabriel]

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Re: [Tagging] Area with restaurants, hotels, cinemas - is it landuse=commercial?

2018-10-28 Thread Mateusz Konieczny 

28. Oct 2018 23:14 by graemefi...@gmail.com :


> On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 at 07:32, Mateusz Konieczny <> matkoni...@tutanota.com 
> > > wrote:
>
>>   >> Based on my understanding of term "commercial ara" and how 
>> landuse tagging is used in OSM>> I think that area with restaurants, hotels, 
>> cinemas fits landuse=commercial.
>
> I would have thought that it would be =retail rather than =commercial?




I can see that for restaurants (see recent discussion that recommended 
building=retail

or building=shop for buildings constructed as a restaurant).




But are you sure that retail is better than commercial for hotels and cinemas?

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Re: [Tagging] Area with restaurants, hotels, cinemas - is it landuse=commercial?

2018-10-28 Thread Graeme Fitzpatrick 
On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 at 07:32, Mateusz Konieczny 
wrote:

> Based on my understanding of term "commercial ara" and how landuse tagging
> is used in OSM
> I think that area with restaurants, hotels, cinemas fits
> landuse=commercial.
>

I would have thought that it would be =retail rather than =commercial?

Thanks

Graeme
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[Tagging] Area with restaurants, hotels, cinemas - is it landuse=commercial?

2018-10-28 Thread Mateusz Konieczny 
Based on my understanding of term "commercial ara" and how landuse tagging is 
used in OSMI think that area with restaurants, hotels, cinemas fits 
landuse=commercial.
But I want to confirm that before 
editinghttps://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dcommercial 

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