Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
Sorry, *still* catching up on stuff after the holidays, a mental breakdown, a car breakdown, replacing that car with a truck, not being able to tag the truck because of the holidays for a month, a truck breakdown... On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 4:25 AM, Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: On Fri, 2014-12-05 at 11:55 -0600, Shawn K. Quinn wrote: On Fri, 2014-12-05 at 09:46 -0800, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: A hybrid approach is possible also where simple is acceptable: amenity=fuel, shop=yes Shouldn't this be shop=convenience (in most cases)? In many cases the shop will be a convenience store, but not always. There are still more traditional shops that are there primarily to take payment for fuel but will sell oil, bulbs, and cold soft drinks and sweets for the journey. It has limited use so far, but I tag these as shop=forecourt. I'd still tend to tag these as seperate features, as (save for some Conoco and P66 stations and virtually all independent stations, and all QuikTrip and Murphy USA locations) the store rarely has the same name and (save for some Valero, Tesoro and unusual P66 locations) are rarely to never under the same roof as the fuel. Granted, in some places, this doesn't make much difference. But consider a QuikTrip anywhere there's ever been a QuikTrip for as long as there's ever been a QuikTrip, and suddenly knowing the best way to the store as opposed to the fuel line is at least five minutes travel and possibly not getting rammed by someone backing up blindly (for those who don't have QuikTrip, you're kinda missing out on the best possible and cheapest independent gas station/convenience store chain going; people don't go to QT for gas and lunch occasionally so much as they tithe it ritually. amenity=place_of_worship; denomination=bodega?). The fuel islands that do have a shop under the same roof tend to be more of the kiosk variety (with the largest being Circle K locations stripped down so bad you have to wonder why they'd even let one wear the name when it doesn't even fit their brand concept). ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 3:44 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2014-12-12 17:28 GMT+01:00 fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com: Am 05.12.2014 um 21:30 schrieb Paul Johnson: How about site relations? Seems like a good use of a site relation. As long as it possible to draw the whole site as a single polygon, there is no need of a site relation. +1 unless you want to express some particular relation between some of the members (i.e. use a role different than outer/inner). I'm curious if we're thinking the same thing. http://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Relations/Proposed/Site (granted, while it's not my proposal, with two or three uses I've generated myself, it wouldn't surprise me if I'm the most prolific user of it thus far...) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
2014-12-16 4:12 GMT+01:00 johnw jo...@mac.com: As long as it’s a pizza shop, it’s all cuisine=pizza, right? ;-) The main distinction in Italy (and you can find similar differences in the offering probably also in other countries, think Pizza Hut vs. a nice Italian restaurant) is between round pizza and pizza slices [1], where you will get the first mostly in restaurant like places (prepared after you order) and the slices in fast food like dedicated places (already baked typically, often no seating), bakeries, etc., with the variation of fried pizza (e.g. pizza fritta napoletana) [3]. And then there are the pizzette (small round pizza) [2]. And the pizza tonda (round) is often distinguished in alta (high) and bassa (flat), with only a few places offering both types (different pastry needed). Next distinction is the oven: wood fired or electrical (obviously the real pizza comes out of an oven=wood_fired). Cheers, Martin [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pizza_al_taglio [2] https://www.google.it/search?q=pizzettesafe=offprmd=ivnsesource=lnmstbm=ischsa=Xei=ehKQVPPfNNX3atv9gqgDved=0CAUQ_AU [3] http://www.verapizza.eu/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/pizza-fritta-verapizza.jpg?bd5854 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
2014-12-12 17:28 GMT+01:00 fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com: Am 05.12.2014 um 21:30 schrieb Paul Johnson: How about site relations? Seems like a good use of a site relation. As long as it possible to draw the whole site as a single polygon, there is no need of a site relation. +1 unless you want to express some particular relation between some of the members (i.e. use a role different than outer/inner). cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
2014-12-15 8:00 GMT+01:00 johnw jo...@mac.com: PS:Basic categories of restaurants in Japan - Ramen, soba, udon - cutlet - Steak - Italian - Indian - “Family” restaurant (denny’s, etc) - Sushi / traditional Japanese - Chinese - takoyaki (octopus balls) - karaage (Japanese style fried chicen) - conveyor belt sushi - bakery - Burger - Izakaiya (pub). - Snack (bar) This covers about 99% of restaurants in Japan - the first 6 cover about 80% I think this is similar in many countries: Italian food might be sufficient for Italian restaurants in Japan, but obviously isn't for Italian restaurants (and similar places that would be restaurants for OSM) in Italy, just as japanese (and maybe sushi) seems sufficient for japanese restaurants in Italy, but in Japan you'd want to distinguish a lot of different subtypes. The best way is probably locals developping a tagging scheme for their field. The only problem then would be cuisine types that don't exist in the country of which they pretend to come from ;-) cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
The best way is probably locals developping a tagging scheme for their field. The only problem then would be cuisine types that don't exist in the country of which they pretend to come from ;-) Yep - I’m sure the traditional, sushi, soba, udon, and maybe even the imported-from-china ramen would get lumped into “Japanese” restaurant in the US. Almost all the imported cultural foods (Sushi in the US, almost all Italian Dishes in Japan) are all warped and changed into something made for the locals. Most Japanese people (out here in rural Japan) look at me in disbelief or amusement when I tell them there is a sushi roll in the US with cream cheese in it. As long as the taggers stick to the local definition of what the restaurant would be (pizza, Italian, Chinese, etc) - then everything should sort itself out. Corn, mayo, and mixed seafood is a popular pizza here, pepperoni in the US, and maybe a magehrita in a Italy (I imagine) - As long as it’s a pizza shop, it’s all cuisine=pizza, right? I guess a chop suey house (if they still exist) is what you speak of - but it would still fall into “Chinese” food, I suppose. I think we need to work out some really robust presets in the editors to connect the english tags back to the non-english tags, or some really detailed wiki pages in the languages. I don’t the data customers can parse the tags if the non-name data is written in Japanese. Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
Maybe in Japan a convenience store doesn't have food in it. Japan has the nicest conbinis you can find - you could actually eat a real (premade) lunch every day from a convenience store here, rather than getting food poisoning from a hot dog at one in the US. However - to them Fast food iconography might be a bowl of noodles - Ramen shops, soba shops, Udon shops - or a takeout of Fried cutlet, fried octopus balls, or other quick fried food (fried chicken, etc) - but mostly noodles. While McDonalds are prevalent, the category of fast food in Japan is not represented by a burger - or a knife fork. Categories are easy - as long as we decide on how we structure the tags - are the categories flat, with a few distinctions - and let the taggers decide; or do we make everything very hierarchical and make everything fit into ever narrower sub-categories? I think flat is the way to go, just like amenity=* is full of stuff. I think the iconography is arguably more important - having some regional icons for common food - a Mexican food icon won’t get much use in Japan, just as a noodle bowl icon would be similarly disused in the US - but both are equally necessary in their home country. Trying to make standard rules for fast_food vs restaurant is a losing battle - unless you you visit the place (or it’s a chain), you’d probably know. Leave it to the taggers to figure out. What we need to do is make the cuisine tags set about 100 times bigger - and get some regional differences represented in the tags so when someone searches for “ラーメン” - a ridiculously common search for fast food here in Japan - it doesn’t populate the screen with burger icons. I imagine fixing that starts with tagging. Gas stations with conbini’s is easy - tag them both. no one complains when there is more than one tag at a mall - the same goes for a gas station with a connivence store. I believe there is a tag for a small pay booth or cashier’s office, if the gas station isn’t a convenience store, right? Javbw PS:Basic categories of restaurants in Japan - Ramen, soba, udon - cutlet - Steak - Italian - Indian - “Family” restaurant (denny’s, etc) - Sushi / traditional Japanese - Chinese - takoyaki (octopus balls) - karaage (Japanese style fried chicen) - conveyor belt sushi - bakery - Burger - Izakaiya (pub). - Snack (bar) This covers about 99% of restaurants in Japan - the first 6 cover about 80% ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
2014-12-12 17:28 GMT+01:00 fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com: Am 05.12.2014 um 21:30 schrieb Paul Johnson: How about site relations? Seems like a good use of a site relation. As long as it possible to draw the whole site as a single polygon, there is no need of a site relation. Correct. I would like to ask everyone to keep in mind that OSM data is usually stored in some kind of spatial database. On core feature of any spatial database is the ability to determine what features overlap others or what feature(s) contain(s) specific other feature(s). In short: a relation is never necessary if you simple want to know what features are contained within an area. Just draw the area. And never forget the biggest advantage of a simple area compared to a relation: if you want to add a new feature and you used an area, you simply add the new feature and you're done. If you used the relation, you need to add the new feature also to the relation. If different mappers are involved, it is very likely that one or the other forgets this - or doesn't even know about it - and therefore breaks the relation. The site relation is a good example of a often misused relation. It is only necessary if the features of the site are spread over different places. I seriously doubt that this would be true for most - if not all - gas stations world wide. br, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
Am 05.12.2014 um 21:30 schrieb Paul Johnson: How about site relations? Seems like a good use of a site relation. As long as it possible to draw the whole site as a single polygon, there is no need of a site relation. cu fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
Dana 11. 12. 2014. 08:57 osoba Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl napisala je: I agree with Greg. Many people still think it is possible to get worldwide consensus on tagging. This will never happen as long as the tags are so subjective. Check out the thread on the definitions of cafe/restaurant/fast_food for a wonderful case of what happens if the input side rules the project. You have heard of ROM? Ever heard of WOM? A large part of the IT budget of large companies is spent on understanding the data they already have. Missing or incorrect documentation, misuse of fields (overloading), no data quality control... I spend my life trying to save them money. Unfortunately every day they are still creating more of tomorrow's legacy. Unless someone wants to declare OSM to be a big data project (store everything you have, just in case it's useful later) and get IBM Watson to find your nearest place to buy a burger. Colin I think we don't need IBM Watson, we just need a database of semantically organised tags. A database which has categories like a place where you can buy food for money which has restaurants, fast foods and convenience stores in it. Geography has to plays a role in it. Maybe in Japan a convenience store doesn't have food in it. Then a data consumer tells its renderer render this category with a big fork and knife and that's all there is to it. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
Am 05.12.2014 um 17:51 schrieb Jack Burke burke...@gmail.com: -1. I don't really agree. The parking/driving area is no more a part of the gas station than any other parking lot is part of the store/building they service. are you referring to drive ins or to shops where people could walk to just as well? cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
I'm in favor of two nodes/elements, one for gas and one for the shop. The main reason is that while designign complicated tagging seems to be what people do, tagging designs should be done from the point of view of those writing code to consume the database and do something useful. Two nodes (or a node and an area, whatever) can be found trivially by code that can search for gas, or for convenience stores, and they don't have to understand the new rules. The address should be on the building. If a POI doesn't have an address, that's totally fine - navigating to an OSM POI can be done without regard to addressing, because it has coordinates. The POI address notion is from garmin and others where the db contains a list of point POIs, and that's it. So, it may make sense to have some sort of relation to denote that a POI is in a building with an address. Or perhaps to have have it be imclicit, if one really needs an address. Typically, I'd expect the convenience shop might have a different phone. Maybe not. In the US, there are gas stations with both a convenience shop (often the same business with the same cashier) and a donut/coffee shop that is a separate business, with a separate sign, license, phone, and hours. So even if the convenience shop and gas are the same business, it's far easier for data consumers to have two POI items. pgp2Qv7s6JhBX.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
2014-12-11 0:52 GMT+01:00 Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com: The main reason is that while designign complicated tagging seems to be what people do, tagging designs should be done from the point of view of those writing code to consume the database and do something useful. 100% incorrect. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
I agree with Greg. Many people still think it is possible to get worldwide consensus on tagging. This will never happen as long as the tags are so subjective. Check out the thread on the definitions of cafe/restaurant/fast_food for a wonderful case of what happens if the input side rules the project. You have heard of ROM? Ever heard of WOM? A large part of the IT budget of large companies is spent on understanding the data they already have. Missing or incorrect documentation, misuse of fields (overloading), no data quality control... I spend my life trying to save them money. Unfortunately every day they are still creating more of tomorrow's legacy. Unless someone wants to declare OSM to be a big data project (store everything you have, just in case it's useful later) and get IBM Watson to find your nearest place to buy a burger. Colin On 2014-12-11 08:34, Martin Vonwald wrote: 2014-12-11 0:52 GMT+01:00 Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com: The main reason is that while designign complicated tagging seems to be what people do, tagging designs should be done from the point of view of those writing code to consume the database and do something useful. 100% incorrect. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging [1] Links: -- [1] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
On Fri, 2014-12-05 at 11:55 -0600, Shawn K. Quinn wrote: On Fri, 2014-12-05 at 09:46 -0800, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: A hybrid approach is possible also where simple is acceptable: amenity=fuel, shop=yes Shouldn't this be shop=convenience (in most cases)? In many cases the shop will be a convenience store, but not always. There are still more traditional shops that are there primarily to take payment for fuel but will sell oil, bulbs, and cold soft drinks and sweets for the journey. It has limited use so far, but I tag these as shop=forecourt. The tag shop=convenience implies a wide range of food available and will be used by customers not buying fuel. Phil (trigpoint) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
Hi - It doesn't make sense to me to have a specific tag for fuel and convenience. Maybe I misunderstand you. I would say, keep copying the addresses! There are lots of situations where multiple co-located items have the same address, e.g. a small post office inside a supermarket. If you invented a new tag it would be harder for people to find the convenience shop... Best Dan 2014-12-05 5:19 GMT+00:00 Hans De Kryger hans.dekryge...@gmail.com: Hopefully this gets enough attention on the tagging list. Thought about posting this to talk U.S but changed my mind. Anyways to my problem. One of my passions to map in osm is gas stations. I've done hundreds since I've joined and now have fully come to realize a persistent problem that occurs frequently. The duplicate address tagging of a gas station and convenience store run by the same company. For example, say i just added a circle k gas station down the street from me to osm. But the gas station also has a convenience store. Well i have to copy over all the address info from one poi to the other since leaving the address Field blank makes no sense if someone would like to get there using a navigation app. I have thought about it a lot. And i go back and forth thinking both places should be tagged. Still a part of me thinks it makes no sense to have a address for a gas station tagged twice. One reason we cant completely combine the gas station and convenience store tag is some gas stations have the convenience store run by separate companies. As is the case with a circle k down the street from me. The convenience store is a circle k but the gas station is a shell. It would be nice to have a separate tag that combined the gas and convenience store shop together. I just want to make clear i don't want to get rid of the existing tags i just want to add one. Regards, Hans ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
You could also put the address information on the building and place the two POIs inside it. At least Nominatim supports this. There is no reason why another program cannot find the surrounding building. Of course this is not as easy as taking it from the node. Since this is a rather recent feature, I've always doubled the address information. regards m On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 6:19 AM, Hans De Kryger hans.dekryge...@gmail.com wrote: Hopefully this gets enough attention on the tagging list. Thought about posting this to talk U.S but changed my mind. Anyways to my problem. One of my passions to map in osm is gas stations. I've done hundreds since I've joined and now have fully come to realize a persistent problem that occurs frequently. The duplicate address tagging of a gas station and convenience store run by the same company. For example, say i just added a circle k gas station down the street from me to osm. But the gas station also has a convenience store. Well i have to copy over all the address info from one poi to the other since leaving the address Field blank makes no sense if someone would like to get there using a navigation app. I have thought about it a lot. And i go back and forth thinking both places should be tagged. Still a part of me thinks it makes no sense to have a address for a gas station tagged twice. One reason we cant completely combine the gas station and convenience store tag is some gas stations have the convenience store run by separate companies. As is the case with a circle k down the street from me. The convenience store is a circle k but the gas station is a shell. It would be nice to have a separate tag that combined the gas and convenience store shop together. I just want to make clear i don't want to get rid of the existing tags i just want to add one. *Regards,* *Hans* ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
In my opinion the gas station is not the building but the whole area. Also the address belongs to the whole area and that's the way I tag gas stations: - Draw an area to cover the complete gas station and put amenity=fuel together with additional tags like the address on it. In my region it is usually quite clear on an aerial image where the station starts and where it ends (some kind of fence, barrier, whatever, ...). - Draw the roads (highway=service) and buildings (building=yes resp. building=roof + layer=1) - Additional attributes like amenity=car_wash, amenity=parking, shop=convenience go to there actual position, i.e. if there is a convenience store in one of the buildings I add the tag there. - No need to provide the address more than once: the address belongs to everything within the area tagged with amenity=fuel best regards, Martin 2014-12-05 6:19 GMT+01:00 Hans De Kryger hans.dekryge...@gmail.com: Hopefully this gets enough attention on the tagging list. Thought about posting this to talk U.S but changed my mind. Anyways to my problem. One of my passions to map in osm is gas stations. I've done hundreds since I've joined and now have fully come to realize a persistent problem that occurs frequently. The duplicate address tagging of a gas station and convenience store run by the same company. For example, say i just added a circle k gas station down the street from me to osm. But the gas station also has a convenience store. Well i have to copy over all the address info from one poi to the other since leaving the address Field blank makes no sense if someone would like to get there using a navigation app. I have thought about it a lot. And i go back and forth thinking both places should be tagged. Still a part of me thinks it makes no sense to have a address for a gas station tagged twice. One reason we cant completely combine the gas station and convenience store tag is some gas stations have the convenience store run by separate companies. As is the case with a circle k down the street from me. The convenience store is a circle k but the gas station is a shell. It would be nice to have a separate tag that combined the gas and convenience store shop together. I just want to make clear i don't want to get rid of the existing tags i just want to add one. *Regards,* *Hans* ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
On 5 December 2014 at 06:19, Hans De Kryger hans.dekryge...@gmail.com wrote: One reason we cant completely combine the gas station and convenience store tag is some gas stations have the convenience store run by separate companies. As is the case with a circle k down the street from me. The convenience store is a circle k but the gas station is a shell. It would be nice to have a separate tag that combined the gas and convenience store shop together. I just want to make clear i don't want to get rid of the existing tags i just want to add one. Hi Hans In OSM we have this principle of one feature - one element http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/One_feature,_one_OSM_element In my world a gas station and a convenience store are two distinct features, so they should indeed exist as two elements also in the osm database. Also an address should be considered a feature in its own right so it should also be a distinct element. Regards Markus ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
2014-12-05 10:49 GMT+01:00 Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com: In my opinion the gas station is not the building but the whole area. Also the address belongs to the whole area and that's the way I tag gas stations: - Draw an area to cover the complete gas station and put amenity=fuel together with additional tags like the address on it. In my region it is usually quite clear on an aerial image where the station starts and where it ends (some kind of fence, barrier, whatever, ...). - Draw the roads (highway=service) and buildings (building=yes resp. building=roof + layer=1) - Additional attributes like amenity=car_wash, amenity=parking, shop=convenience go to there actual position, i.e. if there is a convenience store in one of the buildings I add the tag there. - No need to provide the address more than once: the address belongs to everything within the area tagged with amenity=fuel +1, the same around here. There is also an attribute shop=yes that some people add to the amenity=fuel object to say that it's a gas station with a shop. Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
2014-12-05 10:50 GMT+01:00 Markus Lindholm markus.lindh...@gmail.com: In OSM we have this principle of one feature - one element http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/One_feature,_one_OSM_element this is not a clear rule, e.g. I wouldn't consider it wrong to have an area tagged as amenity=bank, atm=yes and have another object amenity=atm for the (same) atm. The atm=yes is an attribute that says: this bank also has an atm (it's a property of the bank). And the amenity=atm says: this is the atm. In my world a gas station and a convenience store are two distinct features, so they should indeed exist as two elements also in the osm database. not clear. In my world the convenience store is part of the gas station. ;-) Also an address should be considered a feature in its own right so it should also be a distinct element. an address can be seen as a feature on its own, but it can also be an attribute of another feature. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
2014-12-05 10:49 GMT+01:00 Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com: In my opinion the gas station is not the building but the whole area. Also the address belongs to the whole area and that's the way I tag gas stations: - Draw an area to cover the complete gas station and put amenity=fuel together with additional tags like the address on it. In my region it is usually quite clear on an aerial image where the station starts and where it ends (some kind of fence, barrier, whatever, ...). - Draw the roads (highway=service) and buildings (building=yes resp. building=roof + layer=1) - Additional attributes like amenity=car_wash, amenity=parking, shop=convenience go to there actual position, i.e. if there is a convenience store in one of the buildings I add the tag there. - No need to provide the address more than once: the address belongs to everything within the area tagged with amenity=fuel best regards, Martin +1, this is the way I would tag it. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
On 5 December 2014 at 10:57, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2014-12-05 10:50 GMT+01:00 Markus Lindholm markus.lindh...@gmail.com: Also an address should be considered a feature in its own right so it should also be a distinct element. an address can be seen as a feature on its own, but it can also be an attribute of another feature. If you do it that way, that is place the address tags on an other feature you will end up with a database that has the same feature multiple times, which is clearly not a good thing. Regards Markus ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
On 5 December 2014 at 10:49, Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com wrote: No need to provide the address more than once: the address belongs to everything within the area tagged with amenity=fuel In general it is not sustainable to place address tags on area/building elements as there can be many addresses within such an element. You're not going to comma separate the different address values I hope. Regards Markus ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
On 5 December 2014 at 11:40, Markus Lindholm markus.lindh...@gmail.com wrote: In general it is not sustainable to place address tags on area/building elements as there can be many addresses within such an element. You're not going to comma separate the different address values I hope. This depends on the country. In Luxembourg, there is a one-building-one-address rule. Stacked occupants, or occupants sharing a building, always have the same house number (the post man uses the addressee name to resolve the postbox he needs to put it in). I know this is different in other countries, where every postbox needs to have its own address and the post man essentially ignores the addressee name. -- Matthijs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
2014-12-05 12:40 GMT+01:00 Markus Lindholm markus.lindh...@gmail.com: In general it is not sustainable to place address tags on area/building elements as there can be many addresses within such an element. this is country dependent, in Germany addresses are typically refering to a site/plot (not just to a building but to all buildings on that site and to the site itself), and only if necessary additional numbers will be issued, e.g for buildings, entrances, staircases, etc.. In Italy addresses are refering to entrances. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
This topic interests me greatly. In my world a gas station and a convenience store are two distinct features, so they should indeed exist as two elements also in the osm database. Also an address should be considered a feature in its own right so it should also be a distinct element. Regards Markus +1 Same here. In my opinion the gas station is not the building but the whole area. Also the address belongs to the whole area and that's the way I tag gas stations: - Draw an area to cover the complete gas station and put amenity=fuel together with additional tags like the address on it. In my region it is usually quite clear on an aerial image where the station starts and where it ends (some kind of fence, barrier, whatever, ...). - Draw the roads (highway=service) and buildings (building=yes resp. building=roof + layer=1) - Additional attributes like amenity=car_wash, amenity=parking, shop=convenience go to there actual position, i.e. if there is a convenience store in one of the buildings I add the tag there. - No need to provide the address more than once: the address belongs to everything within the area tagged with amenity=fuel +1, the same around here. There is also an attribute shop=yes that some people add to the amenity=fuel object to say that it's a gas station with a shop. Cheers, Martin -1. I don't really agree. The parking/driving area is no more a part of the gas station than any other parking lot is part of the store/building they service. I usually do building=roof + layer=1 + amenity=fuel + brand=Foo for the pumps, and building=retail + shop=convenience for the store part. I also usually put opening_hours on each of them if/as I find out what those are. Lately I've been playing with using a multipolygon as a way to handle the too-many-address-entries problem. Join the building=roof and building=retail into a multipolygon, then apply the address data to that. (I do have to do this before applying the other tags to the areas-that-make-up-the-building bits, but that's easy.) --jack ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 8:51 AM, Jack Burke burke...@gmail.com wrote: -1. I don't really agree. The parking/driving area is no more a part of the gas station than any other parking lot is part of the store/building they service. I usually do building=roof + layer=1 + amenity=fuel + brand=Foo for the pumps, and building=retail + shop=convenience for the store part. I also usually put opening_hours on each of them if/as I find out what those are. That is how I try to tag them. Especially since the fuel brand often changes but the convenience store often stays the same. I usually leave the address node as separate node. Lately I've been playing with using a multipolygon as a way to handle the too-many-address-entries problem. Join the building=roof and building=retail into a multipolygon, then apply the address data to that. (I do have to do this before applying the other tags to the areas-that-make-up-the-building bits, but that's easy.) That is a great suggestion. I'll have to try that. -- @osm_seattle osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 3:40 AM, Markus Lindholm markus.lindh...@gmail.com wrote: In general it is not sustainable to place address tags on area/building elements as there can be many addresses within such an element. You're not going to comma separate the different address values I hope. It's also unsustainable to duplicate address elements on multiple POI's. Among other problems there's a maintenance issue, where it's unlikely that corrections will be applied to all the elements. The two tagging approaches seem to be: - It's primarily a gas station, and it has attributes like store, restroom, water bottle filling station, wiper water. - It's primarily a designated area with a name and address. Inside that area are individual nodes for: - fuel sale/pumps/cash register - wiper water - air hose - restroom - drinking water, permissive, wheelchair accessible - water bottle filling station - hot coffee - complimentary - dark roast - Electric charging station - operator=charge point - fee=yes - Vending machine - condoms - lollipops - Sign - name=Esso - height=20m - lighted=yes A hybrid approach is possible also where simple is acceptable: amenity=fuel, shop=yes But once a station gets past a certain level of complexity, the expectation is the mapper will break out all the elements. - Whatever solution is chosen, it should be easy to create a summary database. For example an offline map may want to simplify the full tagging down to two icons: gas or gas shop ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
On Fri, 2014-12-05 at 09:46 -0800, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: A hybrid approach is possible also where simple is acceptable: amenity=fuel, shop=yes Shouldn't this be shop=convenience (in most cases)? -- Shawn K. Quinn skqu...@rushpost.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
Am 05.12.2014 um 18:55 schrieb Shawn K. Quinn: On Fri, 2014-12-05 at 09:46 -0800, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: A hybrid approach is possible also where simple is acceptable: amenity=fuel, shop=yes Shouldn't this be shop=convenience (in most cases)? +1 shop=yes was removed from JOSM defaultpresets in order to set a proper shop value. cu fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
Am 05.12.2014 um 18:49 schrieb Bryce Nesbitt: On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 8:51 AM, Jack Burke burke...@gmail.com mailto:burke...@gmail.com wrote: I usually do building=roof + layer=1 + amenity=fuel + brand=Foo for the pumps, and building=retail + shop=convenience for the store part. I also usually put opening_hours on each of them if/as I find out what those are. That's worth highlighting. In the USA the shop hours may be limited, where the pumps are left on 24/7 for credit card users. Sounds more like an extra value for payment:*:* in opening_hours format like payment:cash=08:00-22:00 for amenity=fuel? cu fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
On Fri, 2014-12-05 at 09:49 -0800, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 8:51 AM, Jack Burke burke...@gmail.com wrote: I usually do building=roof + layer=1 + amenity=fuel + brand=Foo for the pumps, and building=retail + shop=convenience for the store part. I also usually put opening_hours on each of them if/as I find out what those are. That's worth highlighting. In the USA the shop hours may be limited, where the pumps are left on 24/7 for credit card users. I know of at least one Kroger store locally where the pumps are card only. The grocery store is 24/7 but did close for Thanksgiving; I didn't check if the pumps were left on or locked down for the holiday. But the setup of having 24/7 pay at the pump for credit/debit/gift card purchases is not uncommon. In fact, Exxon used to run a few entirely automated gas stations (including cash at the pump!) under the Exxon Express label (but this didn't last). -- Shawn K. Quinn skqu...@rushpost.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
On 5 December 2014 at 14:15, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2014-12-05 12:40 GMT+01:00 Markus Lindholm markus.lindh...@gmail.com: In general it is not sustainable to place address tags on area/building elements as there can be many addresses within such an element. this is country dependent, But OSM is a global database, so at least in the part of the world that has the familiar street name plus house number scheme I don't see any reason for divergence. Even in countries with a strict rule of one building - one address, I wonder what they do with a single building that occupies a whole city block, facing four streets. Would it still only be allowed one address? Regards Markus ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
On 5 December 2014 at 17:51, Jack Burke burke...@gmail.com wrote: Lately I've been playing with using a multipolygon as a way to handle the too-many-address-entries problem. Join the building=roof and building=retail into a multipolygon, then apply the address data to that. (I do have to do this before applying the other tags to the areas-that-make-up-the-building bits, but that's easy.) Please have a look at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relations/Proposed/Provides_feature I think it addresses exactly your problem. Regards Markus ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
Problem with this idea is usually the fuel is not sold in the convenience store, and at newer convenience store models that actually care about their customers beyond being a walking wallet (ie, OnCue, QuikTrip) will have a separate driveway and parking area behind the store so you don't have to get all caught up in the busy fuel line just to run in and get a cup of coffee. Therefore, separately mapping the store and the fuel line is definitely appropriate as any halfway decent routing engine seems to be pretty good about picking the driveway that doesn't get you caught in the ratscrew if you tell it you want the convenience store, not the fuel line. On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 11:19 PM, Hans De Kryger hans.dekryge...@gmail.com wrote: Hopefully this gets enough attention on the tagging list. Thought about posting this to talk U.S but changed my mind. Anyways to my problem. One of my passions to map in osm is gas stations. I've done hundreds since I've joined and now have fully come to realize a persistent problem that occurs frequently. The duplicate address tagging of a gas station and convenience store run by the same company. For example, say i just added a circle k gas station down the street from me to osm. But the gas station also has a convenience store. Well i have to copy over all the address info from one poi to the other since leaving the address Field blank makes no sense if someone would like to get there using a navigation app. I have thought about it a lot. And i go back and forth thinking both places should be tagged. Still a part of me thinks it makes no sense to have a address for a gas station tagged twice. One reason we cant completely combine the gas station and convenience store tag is some gas stations have the convenience store run by separate companies. As is the case with a circle k down the street from me. The convenience store is a circle k but the gas station is a shell. It would be nice to have a separate tag that combined the gas and convenience store shop together. I just want to make clear i don't want to get rid of the existing tags i just want to add one. *Regards,* *Hans* ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 3:49 AM, Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com wrote: In my opinion the gas station is not the building but the whole area. Also the address belongs to the whole area and that's the way I tag gas stations: - Draw an area to cover the complete gas station and put amenity=fuel together with additional tags like the address on it. In my region it is usually quite clear on an aerial image where the station starts and where it ends (some kind of fence, barrier, whatever, ...).\\\ That'd be a better polygon for landuse=retail. Odds are you're not going to be getting gas out of the air compressor or a parking space in the far corner. Or the car wash, if there is one. - Draw the roads (highway=service) and buildings (building=yes resp. building=roof + layer=1) - Additional attributes like amenity=car_wash, amenity=parking, shop=convenience go to there actual position, i.e. if there is a convenience store in one of the buildings I add the tag there. - No need to provide the address more than once: the address belongs to everything within the area tagged with amenity=fuel Except now people can't use it to have a routing engine find the fuel line for 'em. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
How about site relations? Seems like a good use of a site relation. On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 11:03 AM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us wrote: On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 8:51 AM, Jack Burke burke...@gmail.com wrote: -1. I don't really agree. The parking/driving area is no more a part of the gas station than any other parking lot is part of the store/building they service. I usually do building=roof + layer=1 + amenity=fuel + brand=Foo for the pumps, and building=retail + shop=convenience for the store part. I also usually put opening_hours on each of them if/as I find out what those are. That is how I try to tag them. Especially since the fuel brand often changes but the convenience store often stays the same. I usually leave the address node as separate node. Lately I've been playing with using a multipolygon as a way to handle the too-many-address-entries problem. Join the building=roof and building=retail into a multipolygon, then apply the address data to that. (I do have to do this before applying the other tags to the areas-that-make-up-the-building bits, but that's easy.) That is a great suggestion. I'll have to try that. -- @osm_seattle osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 10:51 AM, Jack Burke burke...@gmail.com wrote: I usually do building=roof + layer=1 + amenity=fuel + brand=Foo for the pumps, and building=retail + shop=convenience for the store part. I also usually put opening_hours on each of them if/as I find out what those are. This is how I handle it as well. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
Hopefully this gets enough attention on the tagging list. Thought about posting this to talk U.S but changed my mind. Anyways to my problem. One of my passions to map in osm is gas stations. I've done hundreds since I've joined and now have fully come to realize a persistent problem that occurs frequently. The duplicate address tagging of a gas station and convenience store run by the same company. For example, say i just added a circle k gas station down the street from me to osm. But the gas station also has a convenience store. Well i have to copy over all the address info from one poi to the other since leaving the address Field blank makes no sense if someone would like to get there using a navigation app. I have thought about it a lot. And i go back and forth thinking both places should be tagged. Still a part of me thinks it makes no sense to have a address for a gas station tagged twice. One reason we cant completely combine the gas station and convenience store tag is some gas stations have the convenience store run by separate companies. As is the case with a circle k down the street from me. The convenience store is a circle k but the gas station is a shell. It would be nice to have a separate tag that combined the gas and convenience store shop together. I just want to make clear i don't want to get rid of the existing tags i just want to add one. *Regards,* *Hans* ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
