Re: [Tagging] Continuous shoulder rumble strips (CSRS)

2020-12-20 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer 


sent from a phone

> On 20. Dec 2020, at 22:50, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:
> I can understand why a cyclist would like to know about them, but I'm not 
> sure how we'd map them? A way drawn along the side of the road, like a fence, 
> or added to the roads properties eg cycleway=lane + cycleway:rumble_strip=yes?


it could be done like lane tagging, see this example from the wiki:

lanes=3
oneway=yes
maxspeed:lanes=100|100|80
 in analogy:
if all dividers were rumble strips

rumble_strips=

if only the lateral borders of the carriageway were rumble strips:

rumble_strips=%||%

(to be read from left to right and in the direction of the OpenStreetMap way)


Cheers Martin 


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Re: [Tagging] Continuous shoulder rumble strips (CSRS)

2020-12-20 Thread Paul Johnson 
On Sun, Dec 20, 2020 at 4:00 PM Volker Schmidt  wrote:

> The OSM wiki page Traffic_calming defines
>
>- traffic_calming=rumble_strip
>
>
> as a structure that crosses the road. It also says explicitly:
> " Do not confuse with longitudinally placed rumble strips to alert drivers
> that they are leaving their lane, which are generally not mapped by OSM.
> (See rumble strips .)"
>
> Regarding the legal aspect of riding on the hard shoulder. I don't know
> the general rules in the US States, but I rode several hundred km on
> freeway hard shoulders in the western US that were explicitly signed as
> "cyclist use hard shoulder". If necessary I can check with my friends of
> Adventure Cycling Association - they are running a campaign to improve the
> situation regarding the danger posed by longitudinal rumbling strips in the
> US.
>

Bicycles *can* use hard shoulders, but this doesn't make the shoulder a
cycleway.  And shoulders that are open to bicycles and have been built or
rebuilt in the last decade or so will have gaps in the rumble strip
specifically to make it safer for bicycle traffic to get on or off the
shoulder safely.  There's usually 40-60 feet of rumble strip followed by a
10-15 foot long gap in a repeating pattern.  Pennsylvania has been
experimenting with buffered bike lanes, putting a rumble strip in the
buffer, but AFAICT, this is the only state that does this due to being the
only place with experimental approval to use a rumble strip on a bike lane.

But for just a generic hard shoulder on a freeway or highway?  cycleway=*
wouldn't apply at all.  Where signed as above where using the hard shoulder
is compulsory, then "no" would be a good value for all lanes in the
bicycle:lanes=* key along with bicycle=yes.
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Re: [Tagging] Continuous shoulder rumble strips (CSRS)

2020-12-20 Thread Volker Schmidt 
The OSM wiki page Traffic_calming defines

   - traffic_calming=rumble_strip
   

as a structure that crosses the road. It also says explicitly:
" Do not confuse with longitudinally placed rumble strips to alert drivers
that they are leaving their lane, which are generally not mapped by OSM.
(See rumble strips .)"

Regarding the legal aspect of riding on the hard shoulder. I don't know the
general rules in the US States, but I rode several hundred km on freeway
hard shoulders in the western US that were explicitly signed as "cyclist
use hard shoulder". If necessary I can check with my friends of Adventure
Cycling Association - they are running a campaign to improve the situation
regarding the danger posed by longitudinal rumbling strips in the US.

On Sun, 20 Dec 2020 at 22:02, Paul Johnson  wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, Dec 20, 2020 at 10:27 AM Jeremy Harris  wrote:
>
>> On 20/12/2020 16:07, Volker Schmidt wrote:
>> > Is there a tagging scheme for these bicycle  killers
>> > ?
>> > I have encountered them on freeways and other major roads that allow
>> > cyclists, in the western States of the USA.
>>
>> How about
>>
>> cycleway = shoulder
>> shoulder:barrier = rumble_strip
>>
>
> I'm pretty sure a hard shoulder isn't actually a cycleway.
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Re: [Tagging] Continuous shoulder rumble strips (CSRS)

2020-12-20 Thread Graeme Fitzpatrick 
On Mon, 21 Dec 2020 at 02:24, Seth Deegan  wrote:

> Those are known as rumble strips.
>
> The wiki has traffic_calming=rumble_strip:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:traffic_calming#Common_values
>

But the description for rumble strip on that page also says "Do not confuse
with longitudinally placed rumble strips to alert drivers that they are
leaving their lane, which are generally not mapped by OSM."

I can understand why a cyclist would like to know about them, but I'm not
sure how we'd map them? A way drawn along the side of the road, like a
fence, or added to the roads properties eg cycleway=lane +
cycleway:rumble_strip=yes?

& wouldn't we then have to include all the rumble strips between normal
traffic lanes?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Continuous shoulder rumble strips (CSRS)

2020-12-20 Thread Paul Johnson 
On Sun, Dec 20, 2020 at 10:27 AM Jeremy Harris  wrote:

> On 20/12/2020 16:07, Volker Schmidt wrote:
> > Is there a tagging scheme for these bicycle  killers
> > ?
> > I have encountered them on freeways and other major roads that allow
> > cyclists, in the western States of the USA.
>
> How about
>
> cycleway = shoulder
> shoulder:barrier = rumble_strip
>

I'm pretty sure a hard shoulder isn't actually a cycleway.
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Re: [Tagging] Continuous shoulder rumble strips (CSRS)

2020-12-20 Thread Jeremy Harris 

On 20/12/2020 16:07, Volker Schmidt wrote:

Is there a tagging scheme for these bicycle  killers
?
I have encountered them on freeways and other major roads that allow
cyclists, in the western States of the USA.


How about

cycleway = shoulder
shoulder:barrier = rumble_strip
--
Cheers,
  Jeremy

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Re: [Tagging] Continuous shoulder rumble strips (CSRS)

2020-12-20 Thread Seth Deegan 
Those are known as rumble strips.

The wiki has traffic_calming=rumble_strip:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:traffic_calming#Common_values

There is no page for the tag though, differentiating the types of rumble
strips there are.

For examples, I’ve seen them on:
The side of a highway (short spaces between bumps)
There are also different types/designs for these:
https://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/roadway_dept/pavement/rumble_strips/rumble_types/


Before construction zones or other approaching features (longer spaces to
warn drivers)
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:North_Luzon_Expressway_Rumble_Strips.jpg#mw-jump-to-license


El El dom, dic. 20, 2020 a la(s) 10:09, Volker Schmidt 
escribió:

> Is there a tagging scheme for these bicycle  killers
> ?
> I have encountered them on freeways and other major roads that allow
> cyclists, in the western States of the USA. In theory there should be no
> problem, as the cyclist is supposed to be on the shoulder all the time, but
> in practice there are many situations where the shoulder is simply not
> usable, and so you have to cross over them and back to avoid the obstacles
> (in most cases a tyre carcass which sheds the dreaded bent-needle shaped
> tire flatteners for cyclists)
>
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-- 
Thanks,
Seth
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[Tagging] Continuous shoulder rumble strips (CSRS)

2020-12-20 Thread Volker Schmidt 
Is there a tagging scheme for these bicycle  killers
?
I have encountered them on freeways and other major roads that allow
cyclists, in the western States of the USA. In theory there should be no
problem, as the cyclist is supposed to be on the shoulder all the time, but
in practice there are many situations where the shoulder is simply not
usable, and so you have to cross over them and back to avoid the obstacles
(in most cases a tyre carcass which sheds the dreaded bent-needle shaped
tire flatteners for cyclists)
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