Re: [Tagging] Driving side
On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 3:35 PM, John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com wrote: The advantage of not having opposite as a value is not to need to verify the country's driving_side to be able to tell which driving_side that way has. On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 7:51 PM, John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com wrote: I removed the value opposite from the page. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:driving_sideoldid=1008962 Sad. I'll not come back on this but you missed the main advantages of the opposite value: - for applications that need to know the driving side, they will need to know the country rule anyway since we cannot expect that all highways will be tagged with this attribute. - for contributors, forcing them to use opposite on ways is clearly indicating that we only want to tag the exceptions (avoid an uncontrolled growth of normal driving_side=left/right on ways) Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Driving side
On 31.03.2014 10:52, Pieren wrote: On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 3:35 PM, John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com wrote: The advantage of not having opposite as a value is not to need to verify the country's driving_side to be able to tell which driving_side that way has. On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 7:51 PM, John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com wrote: I removed the value opposite from the page. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:driving_sideoldid=1008962 Sad. I'll not come back on this but you missed the main advantages of the opposite value: - for applications that need to know the driving side, they will need to know the country rule anyway since we cannot expect that all highways will be tagged with this attribute. - for contributors, forcing them to use opposite on ways is clearly indicating that we only want to tag the exceptions (avoid an uncontrolled growth of normal driving_side=left/right on ways) +1 fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Driving side
I removed the value opposite from the page. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:driving_sideoldid=1008962 2014-03-28 19:27 GMT-03:00 Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de: On 27.03.2014 16:11, Pieren wrote: But you force the QA tools to search and load country relations even if they just have to check locally a way. This is not a problem for tools like osmose or keepright but it is a problem for tools like JOSM validator. There are other reasons why JOSM and its plugins should ideally have access to the driving_side (implicit or explicit) of each way anyway. Other functionality affected by it includes the Lanes Details style and the Turn Lanes plugin. And this functionality is not made easier by the new value. Introducing a value just for the sake of one test case within a subset of the available validators isn't worth it imo, especially as it only detects unnecessary rather than wrong data. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Driving side
While I suggested the value opposite with the same reasoning as Pieren i.e. to guarantee this tag is used on ways only when necessary; the truth is there wouldn't be any guarantee because the values left and right still exist (though theorically only for countries). The advantage of *not* having opposite as a value is not to need to verify the country's driving_side to be able to tell which driving_side that way has. Since we need to use validator rules anyway, we could use: 1. driving_side is only allowed ways that belong to countries that have driving_side specified; 2. driving_side (on ways) must have the opposite value of the driving_side specified in that country. 2014-03-25 5:51 GMT-03:00 Pieren pier...@gmail.com: On Mon, Mar 24, 2014 at 4:37 PM, Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de wrote: Could you elaborate? The left/right is only on boundary relations. The opposite is only on ways. This will also avoid a proliferation of unnecessary driving_side=left/right on ways where it's only required for the non-default rule. Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Driving side
On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 3:35 PM, John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com wrote: Since we need to use validator rules anyway, we could use: 1. driving_side is only allowed ways that belong to countries that have driving_side specified; 2. driving_side (on ways) must have the opposite value of the driving_side specified in that country. But you force the QA tools to search and load country relations even if they just have to check locally a way. This is not a problem for tools like osmose or keepright but it is a problem for tools like JOSM validator. Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Driving side
On Mon, Mar 24, 2014 at 4:37 PM, Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de wrote: Could you elaborate? The left/right is only on boundary relations. The opposite is only on ways. This will also avoid a proliferation of unnecessary driving_side=left/right on ways where it's only required for the non-default rule. Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Driving side
Note that the article states that many countries allow use of both left-hand-drive and right-hand-drive vehicles on their roadways, which contradicts your earlier blanket statement that you have to change vehicles when at a border between a left-hand-traffic country and a right-hand-traffic country. On March 21, 2014 4:09:59 PM CDT, Fernando Trebien fernando.treb...@gmail.com wrote: Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-_and_left-hand_traffic#Driver_seating_position http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-_and_left-hand_traffic#Restrictions_on_wrong-hand_drive_vehicles On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 6:04 PM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 3:24 PM, Fernando Trebien fernando.treb...@gmail.com wrote: A change of driver side requires either a change of vehicle or some special vehicle that can drive on both sides. In the case of your city, driving side changes, but driver side doesn't. You could include that in the description of opposite. I wish this urban legend would die already, because I know of no place on the planet this is actually true. If this were actually true, the US Postal Service would have all of 3 vehicles in their multimillion-vehicle fleet with the steering wheel on the legal side, and an ever growing population of kei cars imported from Japan registered in Oklahoma would be banned (they are in most states because Japan's domestic vehicles don't meet crash standards in most states, whereas Oklahoma places a stronger emphasis on driver ability than vehicle crash-worthiness than most states). The seating position of the driver is merely a feature of convenience and largely up to driver preference. Most drivers prefer left hand drive in keep-right countries, and right hand drive in keep-left countries because it greatly increases visibility when overtaking. Having driven RHS vehicles in North America, I can safely say it's not impossible, but you have to really increase your run-up length to pass safely just because of the sightline when looking to overtake. Drivers who have to reach for curbside objects a lot tend to prefer RHS vehicles because they don't have to step in traffic or reach across the vehicle to, say, collect garbage, deliver mail, restripe a curb, deliver a package, etc. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Driving side
On 23.03.2014 19:23, Pieren wrote: I like the idea to use left/right on the global definition (on relation) and opposite on exceptions (on ways). It's also easier for QA tools I guess. I modified the wiki accordingly. Revert if you don't like it. I don't like it, but before I consider reverting it, I would like to understand the benefit for QA tools to make sure I didn't miss something. Could you elaborate? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Driving side
2014-03-23 2:37 GMT+01:00 John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com: Left-hand-driver cars are sometimes used in right-hand-drive countries, and vice versa. So, changing cars at a national border where the driving conventions differ is not mandatory in all cases. In fact, I have not heard of any cases where it is mandatory. In fact just this week there was a related case at the Court of Justice of the European Union. Some countries did not allow to register cars with the steering wheel on the right-hand side. The court decided that the countries must allow registration ( http://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/2014-03/cp140037en.pdf ). ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Driving side
I think having only one value (driving_side=opposite (or inverted)) would be better to tag highways. On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 5:37 PM, Steve Doerr doerr.step...@gmail.com wrote: On 22/03/2014 14:24, Tobias Knerr wrote: I agree: let's leave it as-is but add the possibility of using it on ways to mark exceptions. It's a sensible thing to tag on countries, and I'm quite surprised it hasn't been more used. I like the idea to use left/right on the global definition (on relation) and opposite on exceptions (on ways). It's also easier for QA tools I guess. I modified the wiki accordingly. Revert if you don't like it. Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Driving side
On 21/03/2014 20:42, Paul Johnson wrote: On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 3:07 PM, John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com mailto:john.pack...@gmail.com wrote: There are, in my city, a couple of streets that have an /inverted/ driving side. So I am going to extend this tag's documentation to include ways that have it's driving side opposite to it's country's normal driving side. In the US, I'm aware that there's some instances of this, however, are there any instances where this is the case and there's no median? Because I'm unaware of any that are on a single carriageway in the US. (Remembers a quiz question from many years ago.) There's one in London: http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/4253954 -- Steve ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Driving side
Here in Japan, because of the imports - mostly German or vintage - most toll plazas have a left hand drive spot ticket taking and toll collection. I was so surprised to see pics of kei cars in the US. This explains it. As a driver of a kei in Japan, I certainly wouldn't drive it in California, except as a farming truck or something. Someone in Sent from my iPhone On Mar 22, 2014, at 6:29 AM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 4:15 PM, Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: You get other problems too, such as paying tolls. I was shouted at for getting out of the car to pay put my card in the toll machine on The Øresundsbron. French Peage staff have never had a problem with that. This seems to be an issue for the kei car drivers here on the plains, especially since the OTA won't issue kei cars a PIKEPASS, as they're not even supposed to be on the Turnpikes to start with (though this restriction is largely ignored by both the Oklahoma Highway Patrol and tollmasters alike because these vehicles are capable of the speed and tend to be more stable at those speeds than, say, a smart forTwo, which somehow manages to avoid Oklahoma's kei class). ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Driving side
On Sat, 2014-03-22 at 18:31 +0900, John Willis wrote: Here in Japan, because of the imports - mostly German or vintage - most toll plazas have a left hand drive spot ticket taking and toll collection. In France, at the start of Péages near the channel ports where there are a high number of UK cars. The A16 (South of Boulogne) and A26 (West of Calais) have right hand ticket pickup machines, unfortunately there are no right hand machines to pay at the other end of the péage section. Phil (trigpoint) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Driving side
On 21.03.2014 21:07, John Packer wrote: There are, in my city, a couple of streets that have an /inverted/ driving side. So I am going to extend this tag's documentation to include ways that have it's driving side opposite to it's country's normal driving side. That's a good and useful extension, as has already been mentioned on the key's talk page. So I suggest you go ahead and extend it. Perhaps, with this new definition, this tag could be redefined to have only one value: driving_side=opposite (this way, it could avoid any confusion about it's use) What do you think? I don't think there is any good reason to force someone who wants to tag countries' driving sides to invent new tags. The current values would work well for both streets and countries, so keep them. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Driving side
The current values would work well for both streets and countries, so keep them. Actually, that's why I want to change it. I think having only one value (driving_side=opposite (or inverted)) would be better to tag highways. It is a little shameful to admit it, but sometimes I confuse left and right; so by restricting this tag's values there wouldn't be any confusion, and restrict it's use only to highways that actually need them (besides making it simpler to use). This tag never went through a formal proposal process, and have very few uses, so I think there is no impediment for changing it's use. Of course, another option is to restrict *left/right* values to countries and the *inverted* value to highways, but if there is no interest to applying this tag to the countries, then it might as well be restricted to highways. 2014-03-22 8:09 GMT-03:00 Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de: On 21.03.2014 21:07, John Packer wrote: There are, in my city, a couple of streets that have an /inverted/ driving side. So I am going to extend this tag's documentation to include ways that have it's driving side opposite to it's country's normal driving side. That's a good and useful extension, as has already been mentioned on the key's talk page. So I suggest you go ahead and extend it. Perhaps, with this new definition, this tag could be redefined to have only one value: driving_side=opposite (this way, it could avoid any confusion about it's use) What do you think? I don't think there is any good reason to force someone who wants to tag countries' driving sides to invent new tags. The current values would work well for both streets and countries, so keep them. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Driving side
On 22.03.2014 14:30, John Packer: I think having only one value (driving_side=opposite (or inverted)) would be better to tag highways. It is a little shameful to admit it, but sometimes I confuse left and right; so by restricting this tag's values there wouldn't be any confusion, and restrict it's use only to highways that actually need them (besides making it simpler to use). It's not only highways that need them. That would tell an application about the exceptions, but how is it supposed to know the default driving side for a country if it isn't tagged? Of course the application could consult an external database, but by that reasoning, countries (and cities) wouldn't need population tags, translated names, ISO-Codes, currency tags and so on either. Nevertheless, some people like to map all that and we have keys for these purposes. That using these values poses a problem for people who confuse left and right is unfortunate, but with those inverted highways being really rare, I think looking at a labelled left/right arrow before tagging it would be a feasible workaround? This tag never went through a formal proposal process, and have very few uses, so I think there is no impediment for changing it's use. Changing it wouldn't be a problem, which is why I support adding highways as a use case. I just don't think changing the values would be an improvement. Of course, another option is to restrict /left/right/ values to countries and the /inverted/ value to highways, but if there is no interest to applying this tag to the countries, then it might as well be restricted to highways. With a tag that has been used on 4 countries and 14 highways, it's a bit too early to analyse mappers' interest imo. Tobias ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Driving side
You are right, since these streets are rare, there is no need to add the value inverted. With a tag that has been used on 4 countries and 14 highways, it's a bit too early to analyse mappers' interest imo. Actually, it's not early, this tag was documented since early 2012. But let's hope this lack of interest can change now. Ok, I have officially extended this tag's use on highways. Please review: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:driving_side One question: I am using the following template on this wiki page to show one example: map lat=-26.30884 lon=-48.84413 z=17 w=350 h=100 format=jpeg layer=mapnik/ However I want to use Mapnik's zoom level 19. But the wiki won't let me have zoom levels bigger than 17. I believe this template was not updated to know Mapnik support bigger zoom levels. Does someone knows how to fix this? Thanks 2014-03-22 11:24 GMT-03:00 Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de: On 22.03.2014 14:30, John Packer: I think having only one value (driving_side=opposite (or inverted)) would be better to tag highways. It is a little shameful to admit it, but sometimes I confuse left and right; so by restricting this tag's values there wouldn't be any confusion, and restrict it's use only to highways that actually need them (besides making it simpler to use). It's not only highways that need them. That would tell an application about the exceptions, but how is it supposed to know the default driving side for a country if it isn't tagged? Of course the application could consult an external database, but by that reasoning, countries (and cities) wouldn't need population tags, translated names, ISO-Codes, currency tags and so on either. Nevertheless, some people like to map all that and we have keys for these purposes. That using these values poses a problem for people who confuse left and right is unfortunate, but with those inverted highways being really rare, I think looking at a labelled left/right arrow before tagging it would be a feasible workaround? This tag never went through a formal proposal process, and have very few uses, so I think there is no impediment for changing it's use. Changing it wouldn't be a problem, which is why I support adding highways as a use case. I just don't think changing the values would be an improvement. Of course, another option is to restrict /left/right/ values to countries and the /inverted/ value to highways, but if there is no interest to applying this tag to the countries, then it might as well be restricted to highways. With a tag that has been used on 4 countries and 14 highways, it's a bit too early to analyse mappers' interest imo. Tobias ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Driving side
On 22/03/2014 14:24, Tobias Knerr wrote: Changing it wouldn't be a problem, which is why I support adding highways as a use case. I just don't think changing the values would be an improvement. I agree: let's leave it as-is but add the possibility of using it on ways to mark exceptions. It's a sensible thing to tag on countries, and I'm quite surprised it hasn't been more used. -- Steve ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Driving side
On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 4:59 AM, Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: On Sat, 2014-03-22 at 18:31 +0900, John Willis wrote: Here in Japan, because of the imports - mostly German or vintage - most toll plazas have a left hand drive spot ticket taking and toll collection. In France, at the start of Péages near the channel ports where there are a high number of UK cars. The A16 (South of Boulogne) and A26 (West of Calais) have right hand ticket pickup machines, unfortunately there are no right hand machines to pay at the other end of the péage section. This reminds me of something we have going on here in Oklahoma. Not sure if it's just conveniently bad planning on the part of the chain or an intentional attempt to cater to the relatively large number (for North America, at least) right hand drive vehicles we have here. The chain of fast food places called Burger Street have two drive-thrus, one on either side of the building. If you're right-hand steer or don't mind the extra long reach (or have a codriver with you), the left line is typically faster. Coincidentally, since gas stations are de-facto one-way (from street towards back) in many places, and du jure at most travel centers, truck stops, concessions plazas and most minimum or full service fuel lines, I truly hate having to get gas in a car with the fuel filler on the left, since lines for left hand pumps tend to be 3 or 4 times longer than for a right hand pump. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Driving side
Left-hand-driver cars are sometimes used in right-hand-drive countries, and vice versa. So, changing cars at a national border where the driving conventions differ is not mandatory in all cases. In fact, I have not heard of any cases where it is mandatory. On March 21, 2014 3:24:21 PM CDT, Fernando Trebien fernando.treb...@gmail.com wrote: I wonder what you mean by Is there any interest of using it on countries?. It's been defined for countries, and is used on it, as you said. You could simply tag the country with driving_side=right/left and use the same (but with the opposite value) on those streets. That said, I think driving side also implies driver side inside the vehicle. Though I find it very unlikely to see this information in use one day, it's best to define this meaning early on. A change of driver side requires either a change of vehicle or some special vehicle that can drive on both sides. In the case of your city, driving side changes, but driver side doesn't. You could include that in the description of opposite. One more thing: this only makes sense if there is no physical barrier between the opposite traffic directions. If there is, then it's just a separate way with no special change in driving side. On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 5:19 PM, Fernando Trebien fernando.treb...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 5:07 PM, John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com wrote: There is a tag documented on the wiki called driving_side=right/left. According to it's description, this tag should only be used on countries, and it describes the side of the traffic in the whole country. So far so good, but according to taginfo it is used only once on a relation, however there are some uses on some ways, and even nodes(?). There are, in my city, a couple of streets that have an inverted driving side. So I am going to extend this tag's documentation to include ways that have it's driving side opposite to it's country's normal driving side. Is there any interest of using it on countries? If there is not, I will exclude the possibility of use on countries from this tag's documentation. Perhaps, with this new definition, this tag could be redefined to have only one value: driving_side=opposite (this way, it could avoid any confusion about it's use) What do you think? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months. (Moore's law) The speed of software halves every 18 months. (Gates' law) -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Driving side
On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 5:07 PM, John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com wrote: There is a tag documented on the wiki called driving_side=right/left. According to it's description, this tag should only be used on countries, and it describes the side of the traffic in the whole country. So far so good, but according to taginfo it is used only once on a relation, however there are some uses on some ways, and even nodes(?). There are, in my city, a couple of streets that have an inverted driving side. So I am going to extend this tag's documentation to include ways that have it's driving side opposite to it's country's normal driving side. Is there any interest of using it on countries? If there is not, I will exclude the possibility of use on countries from this tag's documentation. Perhaps, with this new definition, this tag could be redefined to have only one value: driving_side=opposite (this way, it could avoid any confusion about it's use) What do you think? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months. (Moore's law) The speed of software halves every 18 months. (Gates' law) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Driving side
I wonder what you mean by Is there any interest of using it on countries?. It's been defined for countries, and is used on it, as you said. You could simply tag the country with driving_side=right/left and use the same (but with the opposite value) on those streets. That said, I think driving side also implies driver side inside the vehicle. Though I find it very unlikely to see this information in use one day, it's best to define this meaning early on. A change of driver side requires either a change of vehicle or some special vehicle that can drive on both sides. In the case of your city, driving side changes, but driver side doesn't. You could include that in the description of opposite. One more thing: this only makes sense if there is no physical barrier between the opposite traffic directions. If there is, then it's just a separate way with no special change in driving side. On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 5:19 PM, Fernando Trebien fernando.treb...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 5:07 PM, John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com wrote: There is a tag documented on the wiki called driving_side=right/left. According to it's description, this tag should only be used on countries, and it describes the side of the traffic in the whole country. So far so good, but according to taginfo it is used only once on a relation, however there are some uses on some ways, and even nodes(?). There are, in my city, a couple of streets that have an inverted driving side. So I am going to extend this tag's documentation to include ways that have it's driving side opposite to it's country's normal driving side. Is there any interest of using it on countries? If there is not, I will exclude the possibility of use on countries from this tag's documentation. Perhaps, with this new definition, this tag could be redefined to have only one value: driving_side=opposite (this way, it could avoid any confusion about it's use) What do you think? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months. (Moore's law) The speed of software halves every 18 months. (Gates' law) -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months. (Moore's law) The speed of software halves every 18 months. (Gates' law) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Driving side
There is a tag documented on the wiki called driving_sidehttp://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:driving_side =right/left. According to it's description, this tag should only be used on countries, and it describes the side of the traffic in the whole country. So far so good, but according to taginfo it is used only once on a relation, however there are some uses on some ways, and even nodes(?). There are, in my city, a couple of streets that have an *inverted* driving side. So I am going to extend this tag's documentation to include ways that have it's driving side opposite to it's country's normal driving side. Is there any interest of using it on countries? If there is not, I will exclude the possibility of use on countries from this tag's documentation. Perhaps, with this new definition, this tag could be redefined to have only one value: driving_side=opposite (this way, it could avoid any confusion about it's use) What do you think? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Driving side
On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 3:07 PM, John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com wrote: There are, in my city, a couple of streets that have an *inverted*driving side. So I am going to extend this tag's documentation to include ways that have it's driving side opposite to it's country's normal driving side. In the US, I'm aware that there's some instances of this, however, are there any instances where this is the case and there's no median? Because I'm unaware of any that are on a single carriageway in the US. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Driving side
It's been defined for countries, and is used on it, as you said. I don't think I said that, all I said was according to taginfo it is used only *once* on a relation. If people aren't going to use it, I intend to restrict it's use to streets. It seems it wasn't formally proposed anyway. I don't see why there should be any distinction regarding the driver's side. One more thing: this only makes sense if there is no physical barrier between the opposite traffic directions. If there is, then it's just a separate way with no special change in driving side. The streets I mentioned do not have any physical barrier. Also, there are some signs indicating they use an inverted driving side (Mão inglesa) This is one of these streets: http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/266622965 2014-03-21 17:24 GMT-03:00 Fernando Trebien fernando.treb...@gmail.com: I wonder what you mean by Is there any interest of using it on countries?. It's been defined for countries, and is used on it, as you said. You could simply tag the country with driving_side=right/left and use the same (but with the opposite value) on those streets. That said, I think driving side also implies driver side inside the vehicle. Though I find it very unlikely to see this information in use one day, it's best to define this meaning early on. A change of driver side requires either a change of vehicle or some special vehicle that can drive on both sides. In the case of your city, driving side changes, but driver side doesn't. You could include that in the description of opposite. One more thing: this only makes sense if there is no physical barrier between the opposite traffic directions. If there is, then it's just a separate way with no special change in driving side. On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 5:19 PM, Fernando Trebien fernando.treb...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 5:07 PM, John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com wrote: There is a tag documented on the wiki called driving_side=right/left. According to it's description, this tag should only be used on countries, and it describes the side of the traffic in the whole country. So far so good, but according to taginfo it is used only once on a relation, however there are some uses on some ways, and even nodes(?). There are, in my city, a couple of streets that have an inverted driving side. So I am going to extend this tag's documentation to include ways that have it's driving side opposite to it's country's normal driving side. Is there any interest of using it on countries? If there is not, I will exclude the possibility of use on countries from this tag's documentation. Perhaps, with this new definition, this tag could be redefined to have only one value: driving_side=opposite (this way, it could avoid any confusion about it's use) What do you think? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months. (Moore's law) The speed of software halves every 18 months. (Gates' law) -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months. (Moore's law) The speed of software halves every 18 months. (Gates' law) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Driving side
On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 3:24 PM, Fernando Trebien fernando.treb...@gmail.com wrote: A change of driver side requires either a change of vehicle or some special vehicle that can drive on both sides. In the case of your city, driving side changes, but driver side doesn't. You could include that in the description of opposite. I wish this urban legend would die already, because I know of no place on the planet this is actually true. If this were actually true, the US Postal Service would have all of 3 vehicles in their multimillion-vehicle fleet with the steering wheel on the legal side, and an ever growing population of kei cars imported from Japan registered in Oklahoma would be banned (they are in most states because Japan's domestic vehicles don't meet crash standards in most states, whereas Oklahoma places a stronger emphasis on driver ability than vehicle crash-worthiness than most states). The seating position of the driver is merely a feature of convenience and largely up to driver preference. Most drivers prefer left hand drive in keep-right countries, and right hand drive in keep-left countries because it greatly increases visibility when overtaking. Having driven RHS vehicles in North America, I can safely say it's not impossible, but you have to really increase your run-up length to pass safely just because of the sightline when looking to overtake. Drivers who have to reach for curbside objects a lot tend to prefer RHS vehicles because they don't have to step in traffic or reach across the vehicle to, say, collect garbage, deliver mail, restripe a curb, deliver a package, etc. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Driving side
We only map the roads because we have an interest in using them, right? Therefore, we also often map how vehicles are supposed to use these roads. See: access, oneway, maxspeed, surface, tracktype, smoothness, height, restriction, etc. On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 5:54 PM, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote: Sorry, bad idea. We map the roads, not the vehicles. It is not illegal to drive a car with the wheel on the wrong side - millions of Europeans do it regularly, both on holiday and because certain models of car are only made for certain markets. Let's stick to driving_side referring to the side of the road. By the way, when Samoa changed from driving on the right to driving on the left a couple of years ago, that was because most of the vehicles were imported second-hand from Australia and therefore had the steering wheel on the right anyway... Colin On 2014-03-21 21:24, Fernando Trebien wrote: I wonder what you mean by Is there any interest of using it on countries?. It's been defined for countries, and is used on it, as you said. You could simply tag the country with driving_side=right/left and use the same (but with the opposite value) on those streets. That said, I think driving side also implies driver side inside the vehicle. Though I find it very unlikely to see this information in use one day, it's best to define this meaning early on. A change of driver side requires either a change of vehicle or some special vehicle that can drive on both sides. In the case of your city, driving side changes, but driver side doesn't. You could include that in the description of opposite. One more thing: this only makes sense if there is no physical barrier between the opposite traffic directions. If there is, then it's just a separate way with no special change in driving side. On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 5:19 PM, Fernando Trebien fernando.treb...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 5:07 PM, John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com wrote: There is a tag documented on the wiki called driving_side=right/left. According to it's description, this tag should only be used on countries, and it describes the side of the traffic in the whole country. So far so good, but according to taginfo it is used only once on a relation, however there are some uses on some ways, and even nodes(?). There are, in my city, a couple of streets that have an inverted driving side. So I am going to extend this tag's documentation to include ways that have it's driving side opposite to it's country's normal driving side. Is there any interest of using it on countries? If there is not, I will exclude the possibility of use on countries from this tag's documentation. Perhaps, with this new definition, this tag could be redefined to have only one value: driving_side=opposite (this way, it could avoid any confusion about it's use) What do you think? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months. (Moore's law) The speed of software halves every 18 months. (Gates' law) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months. (Moore's law) The speed of software halves every 18 months. (Gates' law) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Driving side
Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-_and_left-hand_traffic#Driver_seating_position http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-_and_left-hand_traffic#Restrictions_on_wrong-hand_drive_vehicles On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 6:04 PM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 3:24 PM, Fernando Trebien fernando.treb...@gmail.com wrote: A change of driver side requires either a change of vehicle or some special vehicle that can drive on both sides. In the case of your city, driving side changes, but driver side doesn't. You could include that in the description of opposite. I wish this urban legend would die already, because I know of no place on the planet this is actually true. If this were actually true, the US Postal Service would have all of 3 vehicles in their multimillion-vehicle fleet with the steering wheel on the legal side, and an ever growing population of kei cars imported from Japan registered in Oklahoma would be banned (they are in most states because Japan's domestic vehicles don't meet crash standards in most states, whereas Oklahoma places a stronger emphasis on driver ability than vehicle crash-worthiness than most states). The seating position of the driver is merely a feature of convenience and largely up to driver preference. Most drivers prefer left hand drive in keep-right countries, and right hand drive in keep-left countries because it greatly increases visibility when overtaking. Having driven RHS vehicles in North America, I can safely say it's not impossible, but you have to really increase your run-up length to pass safely just because of the sightline when looking to overtake. Drivers who have to reach for curbside objects a lot tend to prefer RHS vehicles because they don't have to step in traffic or reach across the vehicle to, say, collect garbage, deliver mail, restripe a curb, deliver a package, etc. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months. (Moore's law) The speed of software halves every 18 months. (Gates' law) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Driving side
Agreed, we map roads and attributes of those roads. Sorry, I thought you were suggesting a tag with the meaning cars have their steering wheels on the left|right. Colin On 2014-03-21 22:06, Fernando Trebien wrote: We only map the roads because we have an interest in using them, right? Therefore, we also often map how vehicles are supposed to use these roads. See: access, oneway, maxspeed, surface, tracktype, smoothness, height, restriction, etc. On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 5:54 PM, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote: Sorry, bad idea. We map the roads, not the vehicles. It is not illegal to drive a car with the wheel on the wrong side - millions of Europeans do it regularly, both on holiday and because certain models of car are only made for certain markets. Let's stick to driving_side referring to the side of the road. By the way, when Samoa changed from driving on the right to driving on the left a couple of years ago, that was because most of the vehicles were imported second-hand from Australia and therefore had the steering wheel on the right anyway... Colin On 2014-03-21 21:24, Fernando Trebien wrote: I wonder what you mean by Is there any interest of using it on countries?. It's been defined for countries, and is used on it, as you said. You could simply tag the country with driving_side=right/left and use the same (but with the opposite value) on those streets. That said, I think driving side also implies driver side inside the vehicle. Though I find it very unlikely to! see this information in use one day, it's best to define this meaning early on. A change of driver side requires either a change of vehicle or some special vehicle that can drive on both sides. In the case of your city, driving side changes, but driver side doesn't. You could include that in the description of opposite. One more thing: this only makes sense if there is no physical barrier between the opposite traffic directions. If there is, then it's just a separate way with no special change in driving side. On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 5:19 PM, Fernando Trebien fernando.treb...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 5:07 PM, John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com wrote: There is a tag documented on the wiki called driving_side=right/left. According to it's description, this tag should only be used on countries, and it describes the side of the traffic in the whole country. So far so good, but according to taginfo it is used only once on a relation, however there are some uses on so! me ways, and even nodes(?). There are, in my city, a couple of streets that have an inverted driving side. So I am going to extend this tag's documentation to include ways that have it's driving side opposite to it's country's normal driving side. Is there any interest of using it on countries? If there is not, I will exclude the possibility of use on countries from this tag's documentation. Perhaps, with this new definition, this tag could be redefined to have only one value: driving_side=opposite (this way, it could avoid any confusion about it's use) What do you think? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging [1] -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months. (Moore's law) The speed of software halves every 18 months. (Gates' law) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging [1] Links: -- [1] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Driving side
On Fri, 2014-03-21 at 16:04 -0500, Paul Johnson wrote: Most drivers prefer left hand drive in keep-right countries, and right hand drive in keep-left countries because it greatly increases visibility when overtaking. Having driven RHS vehicles in North America, I can safely say it's not impossible, but you have to really increase your run-up length to pass safely just because of the sightline when looking to overtake. Or a lot of faith in the front seat passenger :) You get other problems too, such as paying tolls. I was shouted at for getting out of the car to pay put my card in the toll machine on The Øresundsbron. French Peage staff have never had a problem with that. Phil (trigpoint) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Driving side
On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 4:15 PM, Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: You get other problems too, such as paying tolls. I was shouted at for getting out of the car to pay put my card in the toll machine on The Øresundsbron. French Peage staff have never had a problem with that. This seems to be an issue for the kei car drivers here on the plains, especially since the OTA won't issue kei cars a PIKEPASS, as they're not even supposed to be on the Turnpikes to start with (though this restriction is largely ignored by both the Oklahoma Highway Patrol and tollmasters alike because these vehicles are capable of the speed and tend to be more stable at those speeds than, say, a smart forTwo, which somehow manages to avoid Oklahoma's kei class). ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Driving side
I did not know that this tag exists. Funny, but but there is a street her in Padova, Italy, where this tag could be used instead of the two separate roads used at the moment: http://goo.gl/maps/EZJVI On 21 March 2014 22:29, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 4:15 PM, Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.ukwrote: You get other problems too, such as paying tolls. I was shouted at for getting out of the car to pay put my card in the toll machine on The Øresundsbron. French Peage staff have never had a problem with that. This seems to be an issue for the kei car drivers here on the plains, especially since the OTA won't issue kei cars a PIKEPASS, as they're not even supposed to be on the Turnpikes to start with (though this restriction is largely ignored by both the Oklahoma Highway Patrol and tollmasters alike because these vehicles are capable of the speed and tend to be more stable at those speeds than, say, a smart forTwo, which somehow manages to avoid Oklahoma's kei class). ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Driving side
On Fri, 2014-03-21 at 23:13 +0100, Volker Schmidt wrote: I did not know that this tag exists. Funny, but but there is a street her in Padova, Italy, where this tag could be used instead of the two separate roads used at the moment: http://goo.gl/maps/EZJVI That looks scarey, minimal signage and surely are there are problems with drivers getting dazzled by oncoming headlights? Phil (trigpoint) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Driving side
It's in town, it's not a real problem. Italians are flexible :-) On 21 March 2014 23:22, Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: On Fri, 2014-03-21 at 23:13 +0100, Volker Schmidt wrote: I did not know that this tag exists. Funny, but but there is a street her in Padova, Italy, where this tag could be used instead of the two separate roads used at the moment: http://goo.gl/maps/EZJVI That looks scarey, minimal signage and surely are there are problems with drivers getting dazzled by oncoming headlights? Phil (trigpoint) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
