Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Emergency=Rescue Stations

2020-12-22 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer 


sent from a phone

> On 22. Dec 2020, at 09:42, Andrew Harvey  wrote:
> I think it's fine to use marine here, even though it may not strictly be at 
> sea and could be related to inland waters. So long as this is clearly stated 
> in the wiki documentation. It's not always possible to have OSM tags match 
> how the term is commonly used.
> 
> Water rescue could be confused with the lifeguard tags which are for rescuing 
> swimmers.


At least for inland water rescue there is probably significant overlap with 
rescuing swimmers. Where do we draw the line, if at all? I am referring to the 
German situation, with DLRG being a volunteer driven organization (half a 
million members, only 94 paid staff, 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Life_Saving_Association )

similarly there’s also a water division of the German Red cross, which also 
provides rescuing swimmers as well as boats and emergency response units.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasserwacht

Sometimes emergency response on water is performed by the fire department (e.g. 
divers)

Cheers Martin ___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Emergency=Rescue Stations

2020-12-22 Thread Andrew Harvey 
On Tue, 22 Dec 2020 at 19:15, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

>
>
>
> Dec 22, 2020, 00:42 by graemefi...@gmail.com:
>
>
>
> On Mon, 21 Dec 2020 at 23:24, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <
> tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>
> Dec 20, 2020, 23:29 by graemefi...@gmail.com:
>
> On Sun, 20 Dec 2020 at 17:55, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <
> tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>
>
> How objects tagged now with amenity=lifeboat_station should be tagged
> after this proposal passes?
>
>
> They were a late addition after somebody pointed out that they exist. They
> would be replaced by emergency=marine_rescue, which has already been
> defined as groups " dedicated to the rescue of vessels &/or sailors at sea"
>
> The problem is that some water rescue stations are not marine but inland.
>
>
> Yes, not many but some, which is why I have changed the marine rescue
> definition to include "or inland waters".
>
> marine rescue defined to not be limited to marine is quite ugly
>
> Is term "water rescue" clear and acceptable? (not a native speaker)
>

I think it's fine to use marine here, even though it may not strictly be at
sea and could be related to inland waters. So long as this is clearly
stated in the wiki documentation. It's not always possible to have OSM tags
match how the term is commonly used.

Water rescue could be confused with the lifeguard tags which are for
rescuing swimmers.
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Emergency=Rescue Stations

2020-12-21 Thread Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging 
Dec 20, 2020, 23:29 by graemefi...@gmail.com:

> On Sun, 20 Dec 2020 at 17:55, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <> 
> tagging@openstreetmap.org> > wrote:
>
>>
>> How objects tagged now with amenity=lifeboat_station should be tagged after 
>> this proposal passes?
>>
>
> They were a late addition after somebody pointed out that they exist. They 
> would be replaced by emergency=marine_rescue, which has already been defined 
> as groups " dedicated to the rescue of vessels &/or sailors at sea"
>
The problem is that some water rescue stations are not marine but inland.

>>
>> Also "The area of the Rescue base should render with the same pink colour as 
>> currently used for
>> Police & Fire Stations, together with an "SOS" icon." is problematic as 
>> proposal process has no
>> power to select any rendering in any map style.
>>
>
> Yes, but all proposals suggest a rendering scheme.
>
Suggesting rendering is OK. But "should render with the same pink colour as 
currently used for"
reads like instruction that render is supposed to follow - while it is not 
working this way.

Also, not all of them 
(see for example 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/carpet_hanger
where I skipped this section) 

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Emergency=Rescue Stations

2020-12-20 Thread Graeme Fitzpatrick 
Thanks Andrew!

Done!

Graeme


On Mon, 21 Dec 2020 at 10:21, Andrew Harvey 
wrote:

> Per the Proposal Process at
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_process#Voting it's normal
> to send a new email with the subject like "Feature Proposal - Voting -
> (Feature Name)" to the list.
>
> Many people might not be reading every email in the RFC thread, but do
> want to know when voting is open, so a new thread makes it more visible.
>
> On Sun, 20 Dec 2020 at 14:33, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 6 Dec 2020 at 12:18, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Rescue_Stations
>>>
>>
>> Moved to voting.
>>
>> If you still have any comments or concerns, please raise them for
>> discussion, rather than just voting "No, because ..."!
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Graeme
>>
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Emergency=Rescue Stations

2020-12-20 Thread Andrew Harvey 
Per the Proposal Process at
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_process#Voting it's normal to
send a new email with the subject like "Feature Proposal - Voting -
(Feature Name)" to the list.

Many people might not be reading every email in the RFC thread, but do want
to know when voting is open, so a new thread makes it more visible.

On Sun, 20 Dec 2020 at 14:33, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
>
>
> On Sun, 6 Dec 2020 at 12:18, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
> wrote:
>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Rescue_Stations
>>
>
> Moved to voting.
>
> If you still have any comments or concerns, please raise them for
> discussion, rather than just voting "No, because ..."!
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Emergency=Rescue Stations

2020-12-20 Thread Brian M. Sperlongano 
> Yes, but all proposals suggest a rendering scheme.
>

The proposal process wiki page says "Not a part of the proposals process as
such, but hints for the renderer maintainer will help them out. maybe a
description of an icon (refer Map Icons), or an example mock-up. Usually
may be safely omitted from proposal."

Remember that, at the end of the day, the output of a successful proposal
is a change to the wiki, no more, no less.  It is still up to mappers,
renderers, data consumers, editors, etc., to choose to adopt the changes
specified by an approved proposal.  In practice, approved proposals have a
strong influence on all of those user communities, but at the end of the
day, a wiki page is documentation, not legislation.
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Emergency=Rescue Stations

2020-12-20 Thread Graeme Fitzpatrick 
On Sun, 20 Dec 2020 at 19:01, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> On 20. Dec 2020, at 05:43, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
> wrote:
>
> The existing emergency 
> =disaster_response
> 
> will get a better definition to cover each countries Emergency Rescue /
> Civil Defence service/s
>
>
>
> which kind of places should get the tag? Garages and places where
> equipment is stored? Administrative offices? Training areas?
>

It does say: " The various emergency
=xxx

tags are intended to tag the base areas or buildings of various Emergency
Rescue groups as clearly observed. This tag is only intended to be used for
permanent features, not temporary locations eg in the field"

So pretty well all of the above, depending, of course, on what is at any
particular location. eg for this area, it would include the full fenced
area, with several buildings, carpark etc
https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=19/-27.43264/153.00940, whereas
smaller units (usually in country areas) would be a shed only.

How does it relate to
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/emergency_service=technical ?
>
> and to https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:emergency%3Dses_station
>

They would both be replaced by =disaster_response, which would be defined
as " each countries Emergency Rescue / Civil Defence service/" eg
Australian State Emergency Service (SES), US FEMA (Federal Emergency
Management Agency) etc

Thanks

Graeme
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Emergency=Rescue Stations

2020-12-20 Thread Graeme Fitzpatrick 
On Sun, 20 Dec 2020 at 17:55, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

>
> How objects tagged now with amenity=lifeboat_station should be tagged
> after this proposal passes?
>

They were a late addition after somebody pointed out that they exist. They
would be replaced by emergency=marine_rescue, which has already been
defined as groups " dedicated to the rescue of vessels &/or sailors at sea"

Also "The area of the Rescue base should render with the same pink colour
> as currently used for
> Police & Fire Stations, together with an "SOS" icon." is problematic as
> proposal process has no
> power to select any rendering in any map style.
>

Yes, but all proposals suggest a rendering scheme.

And in many renderers different (or none) styling is used for rendering
> this object anyway.
>

Which I hope would change?

Thanks

Graeme
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Emergency=Rescue Stations

2020-12-20 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer 


sent from a phone

> On 20. Dec 2020, at 05:43, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:
> 
> The existing emergency=disaster_response will get a better definition to 
> cover each countries Emergency Rescue / Civil Defence service/s


which kind of places should get the tag? Garages and places where equipment is 
stored? Administrative offices? Training areas? 


How does it relate to 
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/emergency_service=technical ?

and to https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:emergency%3Dses_station
?


Cheers Martin 

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Emergency=Rescue Stations

2020-12-19 Thread Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging 

How objects tagged now with amenity=lifeboat_station should be tagged after 
this proposal passes?

It deprecates some tags without info about proposed replacements about any of 
them,
and some are actually used.

Also "The area of the Rescue base should render with the same pink colour as 
currently used for
Police & Fire Stations, together with an "SOS" icon." is problematic as 
proposal process has no
power to select any rendering in any map style.

And in many renderers different (or none) styling is used for rendering this 
object anyway.

Dec 20, 2020, 04:31 by graemefi...@gmail.com:

>
>
> On Sun, 6 Dec 2020 at 12:18, Graeme Fitzpatrick <> graemefi...@gmail.com> > 
> wrote:
>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Rescue_Stations>>  
>>
>
> Moved to voting.
>
> If you still have any comments or concerns, please raise them for discussion, 
> rather than just voting "No, because ..."! 
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Emergency=Rescue Stations

2020-12-19 Thread Graeme Fitzpatrick 
On Sun, 20 Dec 2020 at 13:50, Joseph Eisenberg 
wrote:

> The text of the proposal is still confusing.
>

Sorry about that - maybe it should have been broken into 2 separate things?

Is the tag emergency=rescue_stations being proposed?
>

Currently the Emergency page has the heading "Other Stations" with
emergency=mountain_rescue being the only thing listed under that heading
(until recently, when you have added emergency=water_rescue_station). This
proposal will change that heading to "Rescue Stations", with various tags
to define each type of Emergency Rescue Station.

What are the tags which are proposed and what will be the definition of
> each tag?
>

The existing  emergency =
mountain_rescue
 will
remain unchanged.

The existing emergency =
disaster_response

will get a better definition to cover each countries Emergency Rescue /
Civil Defence service/s

Two new tags

emergency =marine_rescue

for non-military "lifeboat" / Marine Rescue units

emergency =mine_rescue

for dedicated Mine Rescue stations

I did mention that the existing Lifeguard classification could also be
moved to this area, possibly under a new emergency=water_rescue tag, but
that would probably be better done as a separate proposal.

Thanks

Graeme
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Emergency=Rescue Stations

2020-12-19 Thread Joseph Eisenberg 
The text of the proposal is still confusing.

Is the tag emergency=rescue_stations being proposed?

What are the tags which are proposed and what will be the definition of
each tag?

— Joseph Eisenberg

On Sat, Dec 19, 2020 at 7:33 PM Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
>
>
> On Sun, 6 Dec 2020 at 12:18, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
> wrote:
>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Rescue_Stations
>>
>
> Moved to voting.
>
> If you still have any comments or concerns, please raise them for
> discussion, rather than just voting "No, because ..."!
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Emergency=Rescue Stations

2020-12-19 Thread Graeme Fitzpatrick 
On Sun, 6 Dec 2020 at 12:18, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Rescue_Stations
>

Moved to voting.

If you still have any comments or concerns, please raise them for
discussion, rather than just voting "No, because ..."!

Thanks

Graeme
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Emergency=Rescue Stations

2020-12-15 Thread Graeme Fitzpatrick 
On Wed, 16 Dec 2020 at 14:51, Andrew Harvey 
wrote:

>
> Personally I'd usually try to add the operator and operator:wikidata tags
> in combination to give more context.
>

Thanks - I never think of wikidata tags as I don't usually use them.

Added

Graeme
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Emergency=Rescue Stations

2020-12-15 Thread Andrew Harvey 
Looks good to me.

Personally I'd usually try to add the operator and operator:wikidata tags
in combination to give more context.

On Wed, 16 Dec 2020 at 13:47, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
> On Sun, 6 Dec 2020 at 12:18, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
> wrote:
>
>> Please visit https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Rescue_Stations & have
>> a look.
>>
>
> Reminder that voting is close to opening on this proposal.
>
> *Precis:*
>
> Amend the heading emergency=other_stations to emergency=rescue_stations /
> rescue_services (still in two minds about this one?)
>
> Under that heading, introduce new, or define existing, tags for various
> rescue services:
>
> emergency =
> disaster_response
> 
>
> emergency =
> marine_rescue
> 
>
> emergency =mine_rescue
> 
>
> emergency =
> mountain_rescue
> 
>
> Deprecate:
>
>- emergency =
>ses_station
>
>- emergency_service
>
> 
>=technical
>
>- amenity =
>rescue_station
>
>
>
> So far, there have been very few comments, so if there is anything you'd
> like to bring up about the idea, please do so, either here or on the talk
> page.
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Emergency=Rescue Stations

2020-12-15 Thread Graeme Fitzpatrick 
On Sun, 6 Dec 2020 at 12:18, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

> Please visit https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Rescue_Stations & have a
> look.
>

Reminder that voting is close to opening on this proposal.

*Precis:*

Amend the heading emergency=other_stations to emergency=rescue_stations /
rescue_services (still in two minds about this one?)

Under that heading, introduce new, or define existing, tags for various
rescue services:

emergency =
disaster_response


emergency =marine_rescue


emergency =mine_rescue


emergency =
mountain_rescue


Deprecate:

   - emergency =
   ses_station
   
   - emergency_service
   

   =technical
   
   - amenity =
   rescue_station
   


So far, there have been very few comments, so if there is anything you'd
like to bring up about the idea, please do so, either here or on the talk
page.

Thanks

Graeme
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Emergency=Rescue Stations

2020-12-07 Thread Graeme Fitzpatrick 
On Sun, 6 Dec 2020 at 12:18, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
> Please visit https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Rescue_Stations & have a
> look.
>

Thinking about this further, I'm thinking that Rescue Services may be
better than Rescue Stations?

I've also realised that Stations / Services is only a header on the page,
so there's no reason for it to actually be included in the tagging, so
instead of tagging things as eg emergency=rescue_station +
rescue=disaster_response, they would only be tagged
rescue=disaster_response

Thanks

Graeme
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Emergency=Rescue Stations

2020-12-05 Thread Graeme Fitzpatrick 
Following on from
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2020-November/056482.html,
I've put together a proposal to make some changes & additions under the
Emergency key.

Please visit https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Rescue_Stations & have a
look.

All comments welcome either here or on the Talk page.

(It's my first actual proposal, so please be gentle!)

Thanks

Graeme
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging