Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Fire_Hydrant
On Sat, 31 Jul 2010 12:30:14 +0100, Dave F. wrote: Why? What advantages does it bring? It's not going forward just splitting stepping sideways. What's wrong with have lot's of amenities? Do you generally consider fire equipment in the same category as restrooms and tourist information, or as emergency apparatus? Personally, I don't routinely look for a hydrant, but I do seek out the can¹. ¹ Well, I suppose if I were a dog, I might consider the two interchangeable. But I'm a grizzly; I might consider natural=woods to be equivalent, but that's a topic not entirely on-topic for this newsgroup... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Fire_Hydrant
On 31 July 2010 21:30, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: Why? What advantages does it bring? Stephen did a pros and cons email on this topic, you would have been better replying to that. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Fire_Hydrant
I think there might be more types of public fire control equipment... I remember often seeing fire beaters (broomstick with flaps of rubber/leather) in a rack on moor and heathland prone to fires. Maybe amenity=fire_beater can be added to the proposal? Colin On 28/07/2010 02:41, Richard Welty wrote: On 7/27/10 6:57 PM, John F. Eldredge wrote: S. Higashi stated, earlier in the thread, that the Japanese government provided fire extinguisher stations along some residential streets, and posted a link to a photograph:http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Fire_extinguisher_ja.jpg. Such a fire extinguisher station would be useful to map, as you would be likely to find a fire extinguisher there. ok. i've not previously seen any sort of public fire extinguisher station, the concept is a bit new to me. richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Fire_Hydrant
At 2010-07-27 23:25, Colin Smale wrote: I think there might be more types of public fire control equipment... I remember often seeing fire beaters (broomstick with flaps of rubber/leather) in a rack on moor and heathland prone to fires. Maybe amenity=fire_beater can be added to the proposal? There are also fire hoses which are attached to building water supplies and fan-folded inside largish glass-front metal cases inset into walls. emergency=fire_hose maybe, though I'd like something that better indicates that it is attached to a water supply, not just a hose by itself. -- Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Fire_Hydrant
On 28 July 2010 17:50, Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net wrote: There are also fire hoses which are attached to building water supplies and fan-folded inside largish glass-front metal cases inset into walls. emergency=fire_hose maybe, though I'd like something that better indicates that it is attached to a water supply, not just a hose by itself. emergency=fire_hose fire_hose=[mains|pump|etc] ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Fire_Hydrant
At 2010-07-28 01:49, Nathan Edgars II wrote: On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 3:50 AM, Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net wrote: There are also fire hoses which are attached to building water supplies and fan-folded inside largish glass-front metal cases inset into walls. emergency=fire_hose maybe, though I'd like something that better indicates that it is attached to a water supply, not just a hose by itself. Would this be a fire department connection with a hose attached? No. They are designed to be used by civilians. They are much smaller and lower-volume than standard firefighter hoses. See http://www.femalifesafety.com/stand_pipe/stand_pipe.html . They are apparently called standpipe fire hose stations. -- Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Fire_Hydrant
Hi, How about a fire extinguisher[1]? Could it be included to fire_hydrant tag? Seems the same purpose to me. They are equipped by local government mainly along with residential roads/living streets for emergency use in Japan. [1]http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Fire_extinguisher_ja.jpg Shu Higashi On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 8:25 AM, David Groom revi...@pacific-rim.net wrote: Why *should* newly entered hydrants use this new precise scheme. Voting hasn't even started on the proposal, it might not get approved, the FRC start date is today, so it might get changed. I interpret that statement as part of the proposal to be (dis)approved. -- Bill n1...@arrl.net bill.n1...@gmail.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Fire_Hydrant
On 27 July 2010 15:59, S.Higashi s_hig...@mua.biglobe.ne.jp wrote: How about a fire extinguisher[1]? I don't think this is a good idea, as they are 2 completely different things... Could it be included to fire_hydrant tag? Seems the same purpose to me. They are equipped by local government mainly along with residential roads/living streets for emergency use in Japan. A fire hydrant is usually hooked up to water mains, where as an extinguisher has a limited reservoir of either water or some other chemical cocktail and may be used for various purposes depending on the type of fire and this information could be very useful, but I'd tag them separately... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Fire_Hydrant
On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 3:12 AM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: How about a fire extinguisher[1]? I don't think this is a good idea, as they are 2 completely different things... t... but I'd tag them separately... +1 -- Bill n1...@arrl.net bill.n1...@gmail.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Fire_Hydrant
I agree that fire hydrants and fire extinguishers should be tagged differently. While both are used for putting out fires, fire extinguishers (a) are limited to use on smaller fires, and (b) are useful by themselves, whereas you need a suitable hose in order to use a fire hydrant )and so are of use to firefighters, but not the general public). Using the same tag for both could cost lives, by making delays in finding the necessary equipment (fire hydrant or fire extinguisher) to fight the fire in question. ---Original Email--- Subject :Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Fire_Hydrant From :mailto:deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com Date :Tue Jul 27 02:12:28 America/Chicago 2010 On 27 July 2010 15:59, S.Higashi s_hig...@mua.biglobe.ne.jp wrote: How about a fire extinguisher[1]? I don't think this is a good idea, as they are 2 completely different things... Could it be included to fire_hydrant tag? Seems the same purpose to me. They are equipped by local government mainly along with residential roads/living streets for emergency use in Japan. A fire hydrant is usually hooked up to water mains, where as an extinguisher has a limited reservoir of either water or some other chemical cocktail and may be used for various purposes depending on the type of fire and this information could be very useful, but I'd tag them separately... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Fire_Hydrant
On 27 July 2010 22:33, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: Using the same tag for both could cost lives, by making delays in finding the necessary equipment (fire hydrant or fire extinguisher) to fight the fire in question. While it may be useful to tag these things on OSM, I don't think anyone could or should be using OSM for life threatening emergency help in any way shape or form. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Fire_Hydrant
On 27/07/2010 13:51, John Smith wrote: On 27 July 2010 22:33, John F. Eldredgej...@jfeldredge.com wrote: Using the same tag for both could cost lives, by making delays in finding the necessary equipment (fire hydrant or fire extinguisher) to fight the fire in question. While it may be useful to tag these things on OSM, I don't think anyone could or should be using OSM for life threatening emergency help in any way shape or form. Like an earthquake in Haiti, for example,... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Fire_Hydrant
On 27 July 2010 13:51, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: On 27 July 2010 22:33, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: Using the same tag for both could cost lives, by making delays in finding the necessary equipment (fire hydrant or fire extinguisher) to fight the fire in question. While it may be useful to tag these things on OSM, I don't think anyone could or should be using OSM for life threatening emergency help in any way shape or form. There are actually projects currently going to tag them in different places in the world (there is one such project currently going in France). Whether to use OSM in life threatening emergency is a different discussion with a particular focus on liability. It is a rather large discussion not limited to fire hydrants. Emilie Laffray ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Fire_Hydrant
2010/7/27 John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com: On 27 July 2010 22:33, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: Using the same tag for both could cost lives, by making delays in finding the necessary equipment (fire hydrant or fire extinguisher) to fight the fire in question. While it may be useful to tag these things on OSM, I don't think anyone could or should be using OSM for life threatening emergency help in any way shape or form. Why not? As any other map, it has to be taken with piece of salt, but if data are collected honestly and firefighters knows it, it can be very valuable. Even more - it would be nice if firefighters would use OSM as reference for themselves (having osm file copy somewhere of course). Cheers, Peter. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Fire_Hydrant
On 27 July 2010 23:05, Peteris Krisjanis pec...@gmail.com wrote: Why not? As any other map, it has to be taken with piece of salt Typical CYA legal stuff, that is unless you want to be personally liable for mistakes you make which cost someone their life... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Fire_Hydrant
On 27 July 2010 22:58, David Earl da...@frankieandshadow.com wrote: Like an earthquake in Haiti, for example,... I'd rather not be sued because someone thought they might be able to do something with the data that turned out to be false... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Fire_Hydrant
At 2010-07-27 06:18, John Smith wrote: On 27 July 2010 22:58, David Earl da...@frankieandshadow.com wrote: Like an earthquake in Haiti, for example,... I'd rather not be sued because someone thought they might be able to do something with the data that turned out to be false... Doesn't our use license include a hold-harmless clause? If not, why not? Not that there's much in the way of assets anyway. It seems already that public entities are interested in OSM. If we can keep those from being purely one-way forks, and manage to keep vandalism (intentional or not) at bay, there is certainly the potential to have extremely accurate maps of things (like hydrants, exits, extinguishers) that may not exist anywhere else. I'd certainly find that welcome in a bullding that's on fire. -- Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Fire_Hydrant
Yes, but my point was that fire extinguishers are not interchangeable with fire hydrants. If you don't have a fire hose on hand, a fire hydrant won't be of any benefit to you, but a fire extinguisher might be of use. Also, if the fire has already grown beyond what can be put out with a fire extinguisher can handle, but you do have a fire hose on hand, you need to know the location of the nearest fire hydrant, not of the nearest fire extinguisher. If both fire hydrants and fire extinguishers are tagged identically, then you won't know from looking at a map which is which. ---Original Email--- Subject :Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Fire_Hydrant From :mailto:alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net Date :Tue Jul 27 12:29:25 America/Chicago 2010 At 2010-07-27 06:18, John Smith wrote: On 27 July 2010 22:58, David Earl da...@frankieandshadow.com wrote: Like an earthquake in Haiti, for example,... I'd rather not be sued because someone thought they might be able to do something with the data that turned out to be false... Doesn't our use license include a hold-harmless clause? If not, why not? Not that there's much in the way of assets anyway. It seems already that public entities are interested in OSM. If we can keep those from being purely one-way forks, and manage to keep vandalism (intentional or not) at bay, there is certainly the potential to have extremely accurate maps of things (like hydrants, exits, extinguishers) that may not exist anywhere else. I'd certainly find that welcome in a building that's on fire. -- Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Fire_Hydrant
At 2010-07-27 11:41, John F. Eldredge wrote: Yes, but my point was that fire extinguishers are not interchangeable with fire hydrants. I did not quote, and was not arguing with, that. I agree that hydrants and extinguishers should be tagged differently. At 2010-07-27 06:18, John Smith wrote: On 27 July 2010 22:58, David Earl da...@frankieandshadow.com wrote: Like an earthquake in Haiti, for example,... I'd rather not be sued because someone thought they might be able to do something with the data that turned out to be false... Doesn't our use license include a hold-harmless clause? If not, why not? Not that there's much in the way of assets anyway. It seems already that public entities are interested in OSM. If we can keep those from being purely one-way forks, and manage to keep vandalism (intentional or not) at bay, there is certainly the potential to have extremely accurate maps of things (like hydrants, exits, extinguishers) that may not exist anywhere else. I'd certainly find that welcome in a building that's on fire. -- Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Fire_Hydrant
S. Higashi stated, earlier in the thread, that the Japanese government provided fire extinguisher stations along some residential streets, and posted a link to a photograph: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Fire_extinguisher_ja.jpg. Such a fire extinguisher station would be useful to map, as you would be likely to find a fire extinguisher there. ---Original Email--- Subject :Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Fire_Hydrant From :mailto:rwe...@averillpark.net Date :Tue Jul 27 17:40:28 America/Chicago 2010 On 7/27/10 8:33 AM, John F. Eldredge wrote: I agree that fire hydrants and fire extinguishers should be tagged differently. While both are used for putting out fires, fire extinguishers (a) are limited to use on smaller fires, and (b) are useful by themselves, whereas you need a suitable hose in order to use a fire hydrant )and so are of use to firefighters, but not the general public). i'm uncertain about the case for fire extinguishers -- they're small and portable. please provide scenarios where tagging extinguishers is meaningful. richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Fire_Hydrant
On 7/27/10 6:57 PM, John F. Eldredge wrote: S. Higashi stated, earlier in the thread, that the Japanese government provided fire extinguisher stations along some residential streets, and posted a link to a photograph:http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Fire_extinguisher_ja.jpg. Such a fire extinguisher station would be useful to map, as you would be likely to find a fire extinguisher there. ok. i've not previously seen any sort of public fire extinguisher station, the concept is a bit new to me. richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Fire_Hydrant
Hi, Here is a proposal for a new way to tag fire hydrants. It's more precise than the old amenity=fire_hydrant tag and there is a very active discussion on the German board: http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=762 . Common hydrants can be tagged in the old way, but new ones should be use the new precise scheme. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Fire_Hydrant Regards Martin S. ___ Neu: WEB.DE De-Mail - Einfach wie E-Mail, sicher wie ein Brief! Jetzt De-Mail-Adresse reservieren: https://produkte.web.de/go/demail02 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Fire_Hydrant
On 7/26/10 4:20 AM, John Smith wrote: On 26 July 2010 18:16,technikschlu...@web.de wrote: Hi, Here is a proposal for a new way to tag fire hydrants. It's more precise than the old amenity=fire_hydrant tag and there is a very active discussion on the German board: http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=762 . Common hydrants can be tagged in the old way, but new ones should be use the new precise scheme. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Fire_Hydrant Don't we have enough amenity=* already? Why not use emergency=*? i like emergency=* as a way of going forward for these sorts of things. richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Fire_Hydrant
- Original Message - From: technikschlu...@web.de To: tagging@openstreetmap.org Sent: Monday, July 26, 2010 9:16 AM Subject: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Fire_Hydrant Hi, Here is a proposal for a new way to tag fire hydrants. It's more precise than the old amenity=fire_hydrant tag and there is a very active discussion on the German board: http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=762 . Common hydrants can be tagged in the old way, but new ones should be use the new precise scheme. Why *should* newly entered hydrants use this new precise scheme. Voting hasn't even started on the proposal, it might not get approved, the FRC start date is today, so it might get changed. David http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Fire_Hydrant Regards Martin S. ___ Neu: WEB.DE De-Mail - Einfach wie E-Mail, sicher wie ein Brief! Jetzt De-Mail-Adresse reservieren: https://produkte.web.de/go/demail02 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Fire_Hydrant
On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 8:25 AM, David Groom revi...@pacific-rim.net wrote: Why *should* newly entered hydrants use this new precise scheme. Voting hasn't even started on the proposal, it might not get approved, the FRC start date is today, so it might get changed. I interpret that statement as part of the proposal to be (dis)approved. -- Bill n1...@arrl.net bill.n1...@gmail.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
