Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Leisure=Skatepark

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 11 Dec 2019 at 01:03, Tom Pfeifer  wrote:

> On 09.12.2019 19:09, Paul Allen wrote:
> >  Where it does cause problems is for people using the query tool (or
> > equivalent in things like maps.me ) being confused by
> tennis pitches, shooting
> > pitches, andthe like.
>


> I'd say that your query tool has to be improved.


It's not MY query tool.  It's the query tool built into the standard map.
It returns tags which do
not match natural language, rather than the meanings they have to mappers.
So a query on
a holiday cottage shows a chalet:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/517689668
A query on a bowling green shows a sports pitch
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/217882225#map=18/52.08830/-4.65389 etc.

Not a problem for editors.  They translate from natural language (holiday
cottage, bowling green)
to badly-named tags (chalet, pitch).  A problem for consumers.  And not
just a problem with
the standard query tool but with maps.me and anything else that responds to
a request for
more detail by exposing raw tags.

We can't fix widely-used tags (unless there is an exact one-to-one mapping,
and even then
we probably won't do it).  We can fix query tools, but probably won't fix
all of them or even some
of the main ones.  We CAN avoid adding to the confusion by not forcing
square pegs into
round holes.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Leisure=Skatepark

[Tom Pfeifer]

On 09.12.2019 19:09, Paul Allen wrote:

On Mon, 9 Dec 2019 at 17:31, Tom Pfeifer mailto:t.pfei...@computer.org>> wrote:

I'd prefer to keep it leisure=pitch, avoiding top-level tag fragmentation. 
Refinements about the
sport definition can appear in the sport=* subtagging.

I can understand that viewpoint.  I'm not sure that there is any technical 
merit, in terms of db
queries, to it, other than making life easier for somebody who wants to find 
all types of sporting
activity in a given area.  Where it does cause problems is for people using the 
query tool (or
equivalent in things like maps.me ) being confused by tennis pitches, shooting 
pitches, and

the like.  It's far from the only tagging infelicity we have, and we'll never 
be able to fix it because
of existing usage, but I see no reason to extend the confusion.


I'd say that your query tool has to be improved. Tagging in OSM is done in 
key/value pairs,
and using elements from natural language for them is just to slightly improve 
human readability.
Sure there are some deviations from the dictionary use of a term when used in 
OSM, but tools like
presets in editors can cope with it.

tom

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Leisure=Skatepark

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mo., 9. Dez. 2019 um 18:31 Uhr schrieb Tom Pfeifer <
t.pfei...@computer.org>:

> On 09.12.2019 03:13, Scott via Tagging wrote:
> > Description: An area designated and equipped for skateboarding, in-line
> skating, BMX'ing, or scootering.
> >
> > Proposal for fixing improper definition of sport=skateboarding, creating
> skatepark as a result, and
> > other relevant access and equipment tags.
> >
>
> I'd prefer to keep it leisure=pitch, avoiding top-level tag fragmentation.



to me a skatepark is a clearly defined "thing", while a "pitch" is not, I'd
rather see the skatepark as kind of sports centre (albeit not really
comparable, as sport centres tend to have opening hours, require the
payment of fees, or even membership in an association, while skateparks may
be like this, but often are just areas where you can go anytime to do your
sports, and without any kind of staff). The skatepark can be a bigger
entity, within which you might find several "pitches" (obstacles / circuits
/ stations), e.g a halfpipe (again would prefer leisure=halfpipe over
leisure=pitch for these).



> Refinements about the
> sport definition can appear in the sport=* subtagging.



sure

Cheers
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Leisure=Skatepark

[Lorenzo Mastrogiacomi]

To me a skatepark is a well defined thing, different and with no major
problems of conflict with other places for sport.
I don't see particular problems in using an appropriate tag that better
characterizes what it is instead of relying a rather vague recipe of
tags.

I suggest to check the proposed access tags (inline_skates=designated,
skateboards=designated, bmx=no, scooters=no). We usually use the term
singular.
These would perhaps be better discussed apart because they could be of
general use. Scooter for example means something different ouside a
skatepark.



Lorenzo


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Leisure=Skatepark

[Paul Allen]

On Mon, 9 Dec 2019 at 22:34, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

leisure=pitch has never sat well with many sports;
> table tennis .. a pitch?
> chess .. a pitch?
> cricket.. the pitch is the bit in the middle .. not the playing area which
> is a 'field'...
>
> leisure=sports_field might be better than pitch?
>

Works for me.  Table tennis and chess on sports fields rather than pitches.
:)

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Leisure=Skatepark

[Warin]

On 10/12/19 05:09, Paul Allen wrote:
On Mon, 9 Dec 2019 at 17:31, Tom Pfeifer > wrote:



I'd prefer to keep it leisure=pitch, avoiding top-level tag
fragmentation. Refinements about the
sport definition can appear in the sport=* subtagging.


I can understand that viewpoint.  I'm not sure that there is any 
technical merit, in terms of db
queries, to it, other than making life easier for somebody who wants 
to find all types of sporting
activity in a given area.  Where it does cause problems is for people 
using the query tool (or
equivalent in things like maps.me ) being confused by 
tennis pitches, shooting pitches, and
the like.  It's far from the only tagging infelicity we have, and 
we'll never be able to fix it because

of existing usage, but I see no reason to extend the confusion.



leisure=pitch has never sat well with many sports;
table tennis .. a pitch?
chess .. a pitch?
cricket.. the pitch is the bit in the middle .. not the playing area 
which is a 'field'...


leisure=sports_field might be better than pitch?

As for searching for sports .. some sports are leisure=track, some 
highway=raceway, some landuse=recreation_ground ...  best top search on 
sport=*?



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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Leisure=Skatepark

[Paul Allen]

On Mon, 9 Dec 2019 at 17:31, Tom Pfeifer  wrote:

>
> I'd prefer to keep it leisure=pitch, avoiding top-level tag fragmentation.
> Refinements about the
> sport definition can appear in the sport=* subtagging.
>

I can understand that viewpoint.  I'm not sure that there is any technical
merit, in terms of db
queries, to it, other than making life easier for somebody who wants to
find all types of sporting
activity in a given area.  Where it does cause problems is for people using
the query tool (or
equivalent in things like maps.me) being confused by tennis pitches,
shooting pitches, and
the like.  It's far from the only tagging infelicity we have, and we'll
never be able to fix it because
of existing usage, but I see no reason to extend the confusion.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Leisure=Skatepark

[Tom Pfeifer]

On 09.12.2019 03:13, Scott via Tagging wrote:

Description: An area designated and equipped for skateboarding, in-line 
skating, BMX'ing, or scootering.

Proposal for fixing improper definition of sport=skateboarding, creating skatepark as a result, and 
other relevant access and equipment tags.




I'd prefer to keep it leisure=pitch, avoiding top-level tag fragmentation. Refinements about the 
sport definition can appear in the sport=* subtagging.


tom

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Leisure=Skatepark

[Scott via Tagging]

Great question. I'm not a BMXer, just an aggressive inline skater so I am not a 
definitive authority on BMX culture by any stretch. I thought they were still 
called skate parks given I've seen organizations like Red Bull have referred to 
them as such (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LgM0ralVVM). However looking 
further into this it seems based on the cities of both Houston and Chandler 
where I could easily find them as well as this list of them, they're classified 
'Bike parks':

https://www.houstoniamag.com/articles/2019/8/14/rockstar-energy-bike-park-bmx-park-opens-north-houston
https://www.chandleraz.gov/explore/chandler-parks/guide/espee-park/bike-park
https://www.twowheelingtots.com/kid-friendly-bike-park-pump-track-directory/

I'll update the proposal in the next 15 minutes to remove that BMX only example 
and add a blurb that bike only parks be tagged as leisure=bike_park

-Scott

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Sunday, December 8, 2019 7:29 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrick  
wrote:

> One question (from a very non-skateboarder!) ...
>
> You've made reference to a "BMX only skatepark".
>
> If it's BMX only, would it still be called a skatepark?
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
> On Mon, 9 Dec 2019 at 12:14, Scott via Tagging  
> wrote:
>
>> Description: An area designated and equipped for skateboarding, in-line 
>> skating, BMX'ing, or scootering.
>>
>> Proposal for fixing improper definition of sport=skateboarding, creating 
>> skatepark as a result, and other relevant access and equipment tags.
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/skatepark
>>
>> Constructive feedback appreciated!
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Leisure=Skatepark

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

One question (from a *very* non-skateboarder!) ...

You've made reference to a "BMX only skatepark".

If it's BMX only, would it still be called a skatepark?

Thanks

Graeme


On Mon, 9 Dec 2019 at 12:14, Scott via Tagging 
wrote:

> Description: An area designated and equipped for skateboarding, in-line
> skating, BMX'ing, or scootering.
>
> Proposal for fixing improper definition of sport=skateboarding, creating
> skatepark as a result, and other relevant access and equipment tags.
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/skatepark
>
>
>
> Constructive feedback appreciated!
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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Leisure=Skatepark

[Scott via Tagging]

Description: An area designated and equipped for skateboarding, in-line 
skating, BMX'ing, or scootering.

Proposal for fixing improper definition of sport=skateboarding, creating 
skatepark as a result, and other relevant access and equipment tags.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/skatepark

Constructive feedback appreciated!___
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