Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Sauna

[Jyri-Petteri Paloposki]

On 11.06.2018 10:29, Rory McCann wrote:
> I suggest adding `sauna=gay`, for a gay bathhouse. "gay" is a
> simplification since many men who have sex with men visit them (not just
> gay men). `sauna=msm` sounds clinical and might be not obvious to data
> users.
> 
> In some countries (like Germany) saunas are always naked, in others
> (e.g. Ireland) that is definitely not the case, you're expected to wear
> your swimsuit). I don't know if that's worth tagging or if data users
> should just deduce it from the country.

Thanks for the suggestion!

IMO this fits better as a separate amenity tag, with the sauna=* tag
only specifying what kind of saunas the amenity has – steam, dry etc. In
the wiki discussion I noted that there's a used (though undocumented)
tag brothel:saunaclub, which to me sounds a bit similar but might still
not be correct. Nevertheless I think this doesn't really fit with the
suggested tag, but needs to be a separate amenity tag.

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-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Sauna

[Max]

On 11.06.2018 19:28, Jyri-Petteri Paloposki wrote:

Number eight sounds like it would fit in this ”experience”, so we should
probably add that one. Is there a western spelling for that?


The romanization reads Jjimjilbang
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jjimjilbang

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Sauna

[Jyri-Petteri Paloposki]

On 11.06.2018 12:17, Max wrote:
> Great idea to make the sauna key more useful. But it should be looked at
> in more detail and with less of a Finnish bias. :)
> 
> Some questions that the tag should address:
> 
> 1. How to tag a place which has several individual saunas?
> 1b. What about other sauna related amenities like cold pools (how
> cold?), whirlpools, hot tubs (how hot?)... Ice buckets, etc.
> 2. What's the method of heating: Wood, electricity...
> 3. What's the designated temperature in that sauna?
> 4. Are occupants allowed to handle the löyly themselves or is only staff
> allowed to do that? At what times do they (often Saunas have löyly at
> the full hour/ half hour, etc)
> 5. how many people fit inside?
> 6. how to tag the opening hours if they are different for men/women/mixed?
> 7. is clothing allowed?
> 8. There ara also other types of saunas in the world that might have
> their particularities. 찜질방 in Korea come to my mind, where you can
> actually spend as much time as you want and even stay overnight. The
> very traditional types are basically a kiln and have a fire burning
> inside for a day and then the ashea are brushed out and the walls
> radiate the heat for another day.
> 
> Then there are countries where the word sauna is just a synonym for a
> place where people fuck, like it is in France. Might lead to odd
> situations if those are confused.
> 
> Some of these things on the list may indeed be concluded from the
> country specific customs, but a map and tagging scheme should at least
> consider them

Thanks for the comment!

Right now I decided to go with the easy one, ie. the sauna experience.
The heating, strict temperature etc. are more of per-location things,
and go quite a bit deeper – of course we could expand the definition
right away to those also.

Number eight sounds like it would fit in this ”experience”, so we should
probably add that one. Is there a western spelling for that?

Not sure what to do with the ”brothel sauna”. I'd say we add that as a
”see also”, as there seems to be a used tagging for that already:
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/brothel%3Asaunaclub . I don't
think it fits the sauna=* definition very well anyway :)

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Sauna

[Max]

Great idea to make the sauna key more useful. But it should be looked at 
in more detail and with less of a Finnish bias. :)


Some questions that the tag should address:

1. How to tag a place which has several individual saunas?
1b. What about other sauna related amenities like cold pools (how 
cold?), whirlpools, hot tubs (how hot?)... Ice buckets, etc.

2. What's the method of heating: Wood, electricity...
3. What's the designated temperature in that sauna?
4. Are occupants allowed to handle the löyly themselves or is only staff 
allowed to do that? At what times do they (often Saunas have löyly at 
the full hour/ half hour, etc)

5. how many people fit inside?
6. how to tag the opening hours if they are different for men/women/mixed?
7. is clothing allowed?
8. There ara also other types of saunas in the world that might have 
their particularities. 찜질방 in Korea come to my mind, where you can 
actually spend as much time as you want and even stay overnight. The 
very traditional types are basically a kiln and have a fire burning 
inside for a day and then the ashea are brushed out and the walls 
radiate the heat for another day.


Then there are countries where the word sauna is just a synonym for a 
place where people fuck, like it is in France. Might lead to odd 
situations if those are confused.


Some of these things on the list may indeed be concluded from the 
country specific customs, but a map and tagging scheme should at least 
consider them


m.


On 10.06.2018 14:01, Jyri-Petteri Paloposki wrote:

Hi,

proposing a new (or actually amended) use of the sauna key to specify
which kind of sauna the leisure=sauna is. The proposal can be found in
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/sauna.

The proposed values as of now are as follows:

– sauna=yes
   General purpose value
– sauna=hot
   A Finnish-style sauna with a temperature of over 60°C because of the
water thrown on the rocks of the stove. This kind of sauna is relatively
dry because of the high temperature.
– sauna=steam
   A Turkish-style steam sauna with a lower temperature and limited
visibility because of the steam generated.
– sauna=smoke
   A Finnish-style hot sauna in which the stove has no chimney but
instead the smoke fills the room when the sauna is prepared, and the
smoke is then ventilated out when the sauna is ready.
– sauna=dry
   A non-steam dry sauna in which water is not thrown on the stove.
– sauna=aroma
   A sauna that constantly has an aroma. A Finnish sauna with occasional
aroma liquid added to the water is tagged as sauna=hot.
– sauna=infrared
   A sauna-like construction that is used for infrared therapy.

Best regards,




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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Sauna

[Tom Pfeifer]

I suggest to distinguish the key for the operation mode (hot, steam etc)
from those for the expected user group and dress code.

On 11.06.2018 09:29, Rory McCann wrote:

I suggest adding `sauna=gay`, for a gay bathhouse. "gay" is a
simplification since many men who have sex with men visit them (not just
gay men). `sauna=msm` sounds clinical and might be not obvious to data
users.

In some countries (like Germany) saunas are always naked, in others
(e.g. Ireland) that is definitely not the case, you're expected to wear
your swimsuit). I don't know if that's worth tagging or if data users
should just deduce it from the country.

On 10/06/18 14:01, Jyri-Petteri Paloposki wrote:

Hi,

proposing a new (or actually amended) use of the sauna key to specify
which kind of sauna the leisure=sauna is. The proposal can be found in
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/sauna.

The proposed values as of now are as follows:

– sauna=yes
   General purpose value
– sauna=hot
   A Finnish-style sauna with a temperature of over 60°C because of the
water thrown on the rocks of the stove. This kind of sauna is relatively
dry because of the high temperature.
– sauna=steam
   A Turkish-style steam sauna with a lower temperature and limited
visibility because of the steam generated.
– sauna=smoke
   A Finnish-style hot sauna in which the stove has no chimney but
instead the smoke fills the room when the sauna is prepared, and the
smoke is then ventilated out when the sauna is ready.
– sauna=dry
   A non-steam dry sauna in which water is not thrown on the stove.
– sauna=aroma
   A sauna that constantly has an aroma. A Finnish sauna with occasional
aroma liquid added to the water is tagged as sauna=hot.
– sauna=infrared
   A sauna-like construction that is used for infrared therapy.




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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Sauna

[Rory McCann]

I suggest adding `sauna=gay`, for a gay bathhouse. "gay" is a
simplification since many men who have sex with men visit them (not just
gay men). `sauna=msm` sounds clinical and might be not obvious to data
users.

In some countries (like Germany) saunas are always naked, in others
(e.g. Ireland) that is definitely not the case, you're expected to wear
your swimsuit). I don't know if that's worth tagging or if data users
should just deduce it from the country.

On 10/06/18 14:01, Jyri-Petteri Paloposki wrote:

Hi,

proposing a new (or actually amended) use of the sauna key to specify
which kind of sauna the leisure=sauna is. The proposal can be found in
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/sauna.

The proposed values as of now are as follows:

– sauna=yes
   General purpose value
– sauna=hot
   A Finnish-style sauna with a temperature of over 60°C because of the
water thrown on the rocks of the stove. This kind of sauna is relatively
dry because of the high temperature.
– sauna=steam
   A Turkish-style steam sauna with a lower temperature and limited
visibility because of the steam generated.
– sauna=smoke
   A Finnish-style hot sauna in which the stove has no chimney but
instead the smoke fills the room when the sauna is prepared, and the
smoke is then ventilated out when the sauna is ready.
– sauna=dry
   A non-steam dry sauna in which water is not thrown on the stove.
– sauna=aroma
   A sauna that constantly has an aroma. A Finnish sauna with occasional
aroma liquid added to the water is tagged as sauna=hot.
– sauna=infrared
   A sauna-like construction that is used for infrared therapy.

Best regards,





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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Sauna

[osm.tagging]

It might be interesting to tag the presence of a cold plunge pool/dunking pool.

> -Original Message-
> From: Jyri-Petteri Paloposki 
> Sent: Monday, 11 June 2018 01:47
> To: tagging@openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Sauna
> 
> On 10.06.2018 18:34, Johnparis wrote:
> > You might (or might not) want to reconcile this with
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dpublic_bath
> 
> Thanks for the suggestion! A sauna, at least in Finland, is quite
> different from a public bath. These two might of course exist in
> the same place: A sauna nicely adds to a public bath, but most
> saunas in Finland are just the sauna room next to the bathroom –
> and quite often even without, for example at cabins that allow you
> to wash yourself in the water. So I think we should change the
> division; though I'll probably edit the Related tags -description
> in amenity=public_bath, it's a bit misleading.
> 
> Best regards,
> --
> Jyri-Petteri Paloposki
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Sauna

[Jyri-Petteri Paloposki]

On 10.06.2018 18:34, Johnparis wrote:
> You might (or might not) want to reconcile this with
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dpublic_bath

Thanks for the suggestion! A sauna, at least in Finland, is quite
different from a public bath. These two might of course exist in the
same place: A sauna nicely adds to a public bath, but most saunas in
Finland are just the sauna room next to the bathroom – and quite often
even without, for example at cabins that allow you to wash yourself in
the water. So I think we should change the division; though I'll
probably edit the Related tags -description in amenity=public_bath, it's
a bit misleading.

Best regards,
-- 
Jyri-Petteri Paloposki

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Sauna

[Johnparis]

You might (or might not) want to reconcile this with
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dpublic_bath


On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 3:19 PM, Jyri-Petteri Paloposki <
jyri-petteri.palopo...@iki.fi> wrote:

> On 10.06.2018 16:14, osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au wrote:
> > If you are tagging one individual leisure=sauna, it makes sense that the
> sauna key has only one value.
> >
> > But if you are tagging sauna=* on a hotel or other larger object that
> contains a sauna, there might be different ones available.
> >
> > In that case, there should be some defined way to allow multiple values,
> probably either:
> >
> > sauna=hot;steam;dry
> >
> > or
> >
> > sauna:hot=yes
> > sauna:steam=yes
> > sauna:dry=yes
> >
> > The 2nd variant has the advantage that it invites easy extensions like:
> >
> > sauna:hot:count=3
> > sauna:steam:opening_hours=16:00:22:00
>
> The proposal has already been updated to allow multiple values with a
> semicolon. It is true that the subkey solution would be more extendable,
> should the proposal be changed to use that?
>
> Best regards,
> --
> Jyri-Petteri Paloposki
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Sauna

[Jyri-Petteri Paloposki]

On 10.06.2018 16:14, osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au wrote:
> If you are tagging one individual leisure=sauna, it makes sense that the 
> sauna key has only one value. 
> 
> But if you are tagging sauna=* on a hotel or other larger object that 
> contains a sauna, there might be different ones available.
> 
> In that case, there should be some defined way to allow multiple values, 
> probably either:
> 
> sauna=hot;steam;dry
> 
> or
> 
> sauna:hot=yes
> sauna:steam=yes
> sauna:dry=yes
> 
> The 2nd variant has the advantage that it invites easy extensions like:
> 
> sauna:hot:count=3
> sauna:steam:opening_hours=16:00:22:00

The proposal has already been updated to allow multiple values with a
semicolon. It is true that the subkey solution would be more extendable,
should the proposal be changed to use that?

Best regards,
-- 
Jyri-Petteri Paloposki

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Sauna

[osm.tagging]

If you are tagging one individual leisure=sauna, it makes sense that the sauna 
key has only one value. 

But if you are tagging sauna=* on a hotel or other larger object that contains 
a sauna, there might be different ones available.

In that case, there should be some defined way to allow multiple values, 
probably either:

sauna=hot;steam;dry

or

sauna:hot=yes
sauna:steam=yes
sauna:dry=yes

The 2nd variant has the advantage that it invites easy extensions like:

sauna:hot:count=3
sauna:steam:opening_hours=16:00:22:00



> -Original Message-
> From: Jyri-Petteri Paloposki 
> Sent: Sunday, 10 June 2018 22:36
> To: tagging@openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Sauna
> 
> On 10.06.2018 15:14, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
> > What is the point of adding sauna=yes to leisure=sauna?
> 
> None. sauna=yes is currently apparently used when tagging other
> features than leisure=sauna that also have a sauna (hotels etc.)  I
> amended the proposed description to state that sauna=yes should
> only be used with features other than leisure=sauna.
> 
> Best regards,
> --
> Jyri-Petteri Paloposki
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Sauna

[Jyri-Petteri Paloposki]

On 10.06.2018 15:14, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
> What is the point of adding sauna=yes to leisure=sauna?

None. sauna=yes is currently apparently used when tagging other features
than leisure=sauna that also have a sauna (hotels etc.)  I amended the
proposed description to state that sauna=yes should only be used with
features other than leisure=sauna.

Best regards,
-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Sauna

[Mateusz Konieczny]

10. Jun 2018 14:01 by jyri-petteri.palopo...@iki.fi 
:


> Hi,
>
> proposing a new (or actually amended) use of the sauna key to specify
> which kind of sauna the leisure=sauna is. The proposal can be found in
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/sauna 
> > .
>
> The proposed values as of now are as follows:
>
> – sauna=yes
>   General purpose value




What is the point of adding sauna=yes to leisure=sauna?

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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Sauna

[Jyri-Petteri Paloposki]

Hi,

proposing a new (or actually amended) use of the sauna key to specify
which kind of sauna the leisure=sauna is. The proposal can be found in
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/sauna.

The proposed values as of now are as follows:

– sauna=yes
  General purpose value
– sauna=hot
  A Finnish-style sauna with a temperature of over 60°C because of the
water thrown on the rocks of the stove. This kind of sauna is relatively
dry because of the high temperature.
– sauna=steam
  A Turkish-style steam sauna with a lower temperature and limited
visibility because of the steam generated.
– sauna=smoke
  A Finnish-style hot sauna in which the stove has no chimney but
instead the smoke fills the room when the sauna is prepared, and the
smoke is then ventilated out when the sauna is ready.
– sauna=dry
  A non-steam dry sauna in which water is not thrown on the stove.
– sauna=aroma
  A sauna that constantly has an aroma. A Finnish sauna with occasional
aroma liquid added to the water is tagged as sauna=hot.
– sauna=infrared
  A sauna-like construction that is used for infrared therapy.

Best regards,
-- 
Jyri-Petteri Paloposki

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Sauna

[Steve Bennett]

On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 11:34 PM, Peter Körner osm-li...@mazdermind.de wrote:
 Hi Kim,

 why exactly do you want to convert a widely used tag (amenity=sauna, ~1000
 uses) to a very rarely used tag (leisure=sauna, ~13 uses).

Agreed. Unless there is something very clearly broken with the naming
of the tag (power=sub_station comes to mind), it's a bad idea to
change a tag to something that is marginally more correct.

Steve

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Sauna

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2010/8/28 John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com:
 On 27 August 2010 23:34, Peter Körner osm-li...@mazdermind.de wrote:
 why exactly do you want to convert a widely used tag (amenity=sauna, ~1000
 uses)

 I wouldn't exactly say 1000 uses is widely used... A handful of
 mappers, or perhaps even a single mapper, is capable of doing more
 than that...


I disagree with you. Have a look at amenity in the planet (tagwatch):
http://tagwatch.stoecker.eu/Planet/En/ignored_amenity.html

more than 1000 is significant.

I can hardly imagine a single mapper (or even a small group) mapping
more than 1000 saunas, but this is maybe due to the area I'm living
in, where there are few of them.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Sauna

[John Smith]

On 28 August 2010 18:58, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
 I can hardly imagine a single mapper (or even a small group) mapping
 more than 1000 saunas, but this is maybe due to the area I'm living
 in, where there are few of them.

If someone had a fetish for saunas and had a GPX file full of
locations prior to finding out about OSM it wouldn't be hard for one
person to add that many.

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Sauna

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2010/8/28 John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com:
 On 28 August 2010 18:58, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
 I can hardly imagine a single mapper (or even a small group) mapping
 more than 1000 saunas, but this is maybe due to the area I'm living
 in, where there are few of them.

 If someone had a fetish for saunas and had a GPX file full of
 locations prior to finding out about OSM it wouldn't be hard for one
 person to add that many.


sure. Who is that?

cheers,
Martin

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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Sauna

[Kim Slotte]

 Hello,

There is plans to replace amenity=sauna with leisure=sauna. Also usage 
access in combination is proposed.


Feel free to discuss about the map feature at:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Sauna

Br, Kim S

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Sauna

[Peter Körner]

Hi Kim,

why exactly do you want to convert a widely used tag (amenity=sauna, 
~1000 uses) to a very rarely used tag (leisure=sauna, ~13 uses).


The Proposal does not tell why this change is required.

Peter


Am 27.08.2010 14:31, schrieb Kim Slotte:

Hello,

There is plans to replace amenity=sauna with leisure=sauna. Also usage
access in combination is proposed.

Feel free to discuss about the map feature at:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Sauna

Br, Kim S

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Sauna

[John Smith]

On 27 August 2010 23:34, Peter Körner osm-li...@mazdermind.de wrote:
 why exactly do you want to convert a widely used tag (amenity=sauna, ~1000
 uses)

I wouldn't exactly say 1000 uses is widely used... A handful of
mappers, or perhaps even a single mapper, is capable of doing more
than that...

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