Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - admin_title=*
On 10.05.2015 22:48, Eugene Alvin Villar wrote: Then there should be an effort to standardize the possible values of designation=* when applied to administrative entities. I think your current proposal is a good time to discuss that. The resulting standardized tags would need to be included in the http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:designation page, making that page even more confusing than it already is. Do you have any proof that application developers will not implement it, other than just personal conjecture? That's my experience with OSM for 5 years, and with IT for 25 years. Routing developers have not implemented the tables given on http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Speed_limits#Country_code.2Fcategory_conversion_table, http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_tags_for_routing/Maxspeed and http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_tags_for_routing/Access-Restrictions for years even though some of them they get payed. They also did not implement routing over areas although it is a trivial task. The most important application to incorporate the designation=* or admin_title=* key would be Carto, because that's what people get to see when they try out OSM or when an OSM map is included within another site. Carto is optimized for speed. Changes in data are immediately queued to be rendered. There is no preprocessing. I know of no wiki table ever implemented in carto. That would require continuously keeping the implementation up to date. Who is supposed to do that? Only a few people have a commit privilegue. And those are reluctant to do anything. I made lots of comments and suggestions in their bug tracking systems, both old and new, and none of my suggestions was ever implemented. When I asked them for their criteria what features to render, they did not give me an answer. How do you think you get them implement a conversion table and keep it up to date? I bet you will not even try. And as I said before, such automatic replacement, if wrong, is not a catastrophic problem. Maybe not catastrophic, but it is wrong, and I will not write a proposal for something of which we already know beforehand that it is wrong. If a tag such as designation=* when applied to administrative entities were to be widely and consistently applied, and the documentation on the wiki is clear, then developers will find value in supporting such tables. According to Andy Allen (Gravitystorm), who seems to be the owner of Carto, this is absolutely not how we decide what things to render. -- Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - admin_title=*
On Mon, 11 May 2015 08:44:25 +0200 Friedrich Volkmann b...@volki.at wrote: If a tag such as designation=* when applied to administrative entities were to be widely and consistently applied, and the documentation on the wiki is clear, then developers will find value in supporting such tables. According to Andy Allen (Gravitystorm), who seems to be the owner of Carto, this is absolutely not how we decide what things to render. Please, avoid quoting out of context. It was response to is used 9461 times, it is approved, and it has its wiki page, thus it should be rendered (source: https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/545 ) Many tags are widely used, have wiki page and will never be rendered in openstreetmap-carto - and any amount of approvals will not change it (source tag is an obvious example). Only a few people have a commit privilegue. And those are reluctant to do anything. I made lots of comments and suggestions in their bug tracking systems, both old and new, and none of my suggestions was ever implemented. Note that there are over 300 open issues. Reporting problems and discussion is useful, but it is not something that may be committed. It can be done only once somebody writes code - and it may be done by anyone, commit rights are not necessary to submit a pull request. About 40 pull requests were processed within last month, with 17 currently waiting. Within last 50 closed pull requests 36 were merged, 11 were rejected, 2 were replaced by an improved version and 1 pull request was a test, not intended as mergeable. About are reluctant to do anything - see https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/commits/master ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - admin_title=*
On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 5:53 PM, Friedrich Volkmann b...@volki.at wrote: On 10.05.2015 10:38, Eugene Alvin Villar wrote: I prefer designation=* since it it already a widely used tag that fits the intended purpose of the proposed admin_title=* tag. The question on whether the value should be human-readable or machine-readable can be solved by using correspondence tables to link the two. Barring such a table, I don't see a catastrophic problem in automatically converting civil_parish to Civil Parish and vice versa, to use the example in the talk page. designation=* is widely used (193 293 times), but look at the values in taginfo. The only relevant value is civil_parish (3346 times). All other values are just a mess. Then there should be an effort to standardize the possible values of designation=* when applied to administrative entities. I think your current proposal is a good time to discuss that. The automatic replacement of underscores and lowercase initials with blanks and uppercase initials would be easy, but no application developer will implement it, and the uppercase initials may be wrong in some cases. Do you have any proof that application developers will not implement it, other than just personal conjecture? And as I said before, such automatic replacement, if wrong, is not a catastrophic problem. It would also be easy to put a conversion table in the wiki, similar to the tables we already have for implicit maxspeed and access values by highway type and country. But again, application developers will ignore those tables. Again, why are you so sure that developers will ignore such tables? If a tag such as designation=* when applied to administrative entities were to be widely and consistently applied, and the documentation on the wiki is clear, then developers will find value in supporting such tables. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - admin_title=*
I prefer designation=* since it it already a widely used tag that fits the intended purpose of the proposed admin_title=* tag. The question on whether the value should be human-readable or machine-readable can be solved by using correspondence tables to link the two. Barring such a table, I don't see a catastrophic problem in automatically converting civil_parish to Civil Parish and vice versa, to use the example in the talk page. On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 3:55 PM, Friedrich Volkmann b...@volki.at wrote: On 17.12.2014 16:25, I wrote: This is about a new attribute for administrative devisions. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/admin_title So far there were 3 alternative suggestions, which all have their drawbacks: 1) official_status: It remains unclear what the prefix means (country code? language code?) and why it is needed, see my entry from 29 December 2014 17:33 on the talk page. 2) designation: contains machine readable values instead of human readable values, see my entry from 23 December 2014 12:51 on the talk page. A proposal with machine readable values was already voted down (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Designation). 3) admin_centre role: I don't see that purpose documented anywhere, and it does not work for all countries, see Zverik's entry from 18 December 2014 15:21 on the talk page. There's no more activity on the talk page, nor is here, so the only way to get this issue forward is by starting the voting phase, which is what I am doing now. Anyone who still prefers one of the alternatives will hopefully come out of the woodwork and append to the discussion. -- Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - admin_title=*
On 17.12.2014 16:25, I wrote: This is about a new attribute for administrative devisions. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/admin_title So far there were 3 alternative suggestions, which all have their drawbacks: 1) official_status: It remains unclear what the prefix means (country code? language code?) and why it is needed, see my entry from 29 December 2014 17:33 on the talk page. 2) designation: contains machine readable values instead of human readable values, see my entry from 23 December 2014 12:51 on the talk page. A proposal with machine readable values was already voted down (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Designation). 3) admin_centre role: I don't see that purpose documented anywhere, and it does not work for all countries, see Zverik's entry from 18 December 2014 15:21 on the talk page. There's no more activity on the talk page, nor is here, so the only way to get this issue forward is by starting the voting phase, which is what I am doing now. Anyone who still prefers one of the alternatives will hopefully come out of the woodwork and append to the discussion. -- Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - admin_title=*
On 10.05.2015 10:38, Eugene Alvin Villar wrote: I prefer designation=* since it it already a widely used tag that fits the intended purpose of the proposed admin_title=* tag. The question on whether the value should be human-readable or machine-readable can be solved by using correspondence tables to link the two. Barring such a table, I don't see a catastrophic problem in automatically converting civil_parish to Civil Parish and vice versa, to use the example in the talk page. designation=* is widely used (193 293 times), but look at the values in taginfo. The only relevant value is civil_parish (3346 times). All other values are just a mess. The automatic replacement of underscores and lowercase initials with blanks and uppercase initials would be easy, but no application developer will implement it, and the uppercase initials may be wrong in some cases. It would also be easy to put a conversion table in the wiki, similar to the tables we already have for implicit maxspeed and access values by highway type and country. But again, application developers will ignore those tables. -- Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
