Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
On 17/08/2019 17:02, Andrew Hain wrote: In the UK every business that handles food has its hygiene ratings and usually address published as open data under a licence we can use. Sometimes a business in an unmarked house is listed with an unredacted address; I don’t record the business or the existence of the listing in that case. This is becoming a less useful source. Many objects that were listed in the early version have now disappeared, such as pubs. My local used to have a 5, sticker now gone and no mention in FHRS. The pub has not closed. Phil (trigpoint) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
On 19/08/19 21:14, ael wrote: On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 05:21:22PM +0900, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: Interesting! I remembered a problem with "trade=*" - it's already been used almost 5000 times to specify the type of trade goods sold at a shop=trade - see https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/trade and https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dtrade Yes. I invented that tag and have already noted the possible confusion earlier in this thread. I have dithered about whether this second usage of "trade" would be confusing. Just as long as it can be used in a clearly distinct way, and the documentation clearly notes the other use and indicates how they are distinguished, I guess it would be OK. I am not proposing that 'trade' be used in OSM in that way, but if it were then there can be problems. If necessary then something along the lines of payment=trade;cash;* Long way off topic. I would certainly not use trade=* to indicate what is for sale in shop=* other than shop=trade. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 08:25:30PM +1000, Warin wrote: > On 19/08/19 19:12, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: > > > > > > > > 19 Aug 2019, 10:44 by 61sundow...@gmail.com: > > > > On 19/08/19 18:21, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: > > > > Interesting! > > > > I remembered a problem with "trade=*" - it's already been used > > almost > > 5000 times to specify the type of trade goods sold at a > > shop=trade - > > see https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/trade and > > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dtrade > > > > > > Not a 'good tag' as it can only be used with shop=trade. > > > > Why? It can be added to any shop, > > not only ones tagged with shop=trade. > > If I saw a shop=car with trade=car I would tend to think I could trade my > car for another car. I would think it mistagged. :-) shop=trade trade=motor_dealing is my best, but horrible, invention of a value to indicate a place probably auctioning cars for the motor trade. But I wouldn't use shop as the primary tag for such a place. The point is to indicate the sort of tagging already established for the trade tag, rather than to suggest anyone do that. ael ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 11:12:58AM +0200, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: > > > > 19 Aug 2019, 10:44 by 61sundow...@gmail.com: > > > On 19/08/19 18:21, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: > > > >> Interesting! > >> > >> I remembered a problem with "trade=*" - it's already been used almost > >> 5000 times to specify the type of trade goods sold at a shop=trade - > >> see https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/trade and > >> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dtrade > >> > > > > Not a 'good tag' as it can only be used with shop=trade. > > > Why? It can be added to any shop, > not only ones tagged with shop=trade. > > Though I agree "sells" would be a probably > more clear name. Again, sells is not equivalent to trade which has a distinct meaning about to whom it sells (primarily). Not quite the same as wholesale, but a certain similarity. ael ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 06:44:31PM +1000, Warin wrote: > On 19/08/19 18:21, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: > > Interesting! > > > > I remembered a problem with "trade=*" - it's already been used almost > > 5000 times to specify the type of trade goods sold at a shop=trade - > > see https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/trade and > > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dtrade > > Not a 'good tag' as it can only be used with shop=trade. > Where it has a distinct meaning about *whom* a shop serves, as well as indicating what is sold. I simplify for brevity here. So you are overlooking the full semantics of the shop=trade tag. ael ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 05:21:22PM +0900, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: > Interesting! > > I remembered a problem with "trade=*" - it's already been used almost > 5000 times to specify the type of trade goods sold at a shop=trade - > see https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/trade and > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dtrade Yes. I invented that tag and have already noted the possible confusion earlier in this thread. I have dithered about whether this second usage of "trade" would be confusing. Just as long as it can be used in a clearly distinct way, and the documentation clearly notes the other use and indicates how they are distinguished, I guess it would be OK. ael ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
On 19/08/19 19:12, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: 19 Aug 2019, 10:44 by 61sundow...@gmail.com: On 19/08/19 18:21, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: Interesting! I remembered a problem with "trade=*" - it's already been used almost 5000 times to specify the type of trade goods sold at a shop=trade - see https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/trade and https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dtrade Not a 'good tag' as it can only be used with shop=trade. Why? It can be added to any shop, not only ones tagged with shop=trade. If I saw a shop=car with trade=car I would tend to think I could trade my car for another car. Though I agree "sells" would be a probably more clear name. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
19 Aug 2019, 10:44 by 61sundow...@gmail.com: > On 19/08/19 18:21, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: > >> Interesting! >> >> I remembered a problem with "trade=*" - it's already been used almost >> 5000 times to specify the type of trade goods sold at a shop=trade - >> see https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/trade and >> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dtrade >> > > Not a 'good tag' as it can only be used with shop=trade. > Why? It can be added to any shop, not only ones tagged with shop=trade. Though I agree "sells" would be a probably more clear name.___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
On 19/08/19 18:21, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: Interesting! I remembered a problem with "trade=*" - it's already been used almost 5000 times to specify the type of trade goods sold at a shop=trade - see https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/trade and https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dtrade Not a 'good tag' as it can only be used with shop=trade. Much better to have a universal shop tag that can be used with any shop. The word that most people (non OSM) would use is 'sells'. Some think OSM should use the word 'vending' as that is what is used for vending machines. However I disagree, I would much rather have a word that is in common use rather than have a word that few would use in relation to a shop. I have raised this before ... and got nowhere, so it looks to me like each shop will have it's own unique tag to describe what it supplies. What a confusing mess that will be. On 8/19/19, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: sent from a phone On 19. Aug 2019, at 02:28, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: But trade= is better than generic business= for the workshop of an individual tradesperson. by the time craft was introduced, it should probably have been “trade”, IIRR the craft tag was invented by Germans and intended for tradespeople, basically it’s a dictionary accident... (German: Handwerk) Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
Interesting! I remembered a problem with "trade=*" - it's already been used almost 5000 times to specify the type of trade goods sold at a shop=trade - see https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/trade and https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dtrade On 8/19/19, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > > sent from a phone > >> On 19. Aug 2019, at 02:28, Joseph Eisenberg >> wrote: >> >> But trade= is better than generic business= for the workshop of an >> individual tradesperson. > > > by the time craft was introduced, it should probably have been “trade”, IIRR > the craft tag was invented by Germans and intended for tradespeople, > basically it’s a dictionary accident... > (German: Handwerk) > > Cheers Martin > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
sent from a phone > On 19. Aug 2019, at 02:28, Joseph Eisenberg > wrote: > > But trade= is better than generic business= for the workshop of an individual > tradesperson. by the time craft was introduced, it should probably have been “trade”, IIRR the craft tag was invented by Germans and intended for tradespeople, basically it’s a dictionary accident... (German: Handwerk) Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
On 19/08/19 10:20, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: This: https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2019-March/044160.html was the original discussion that I had been going to expand on, with the possibility of trade= for places like a plumber's workshop / shed etc. There was also discussion about craft= being more used for "one-off" hand-made handicrafts (wood turning, artists [as opposed to house painters] etc) What's the preference of trade= against business= plumbers, electricians, builders etc who don't work out of an "office"? Where do they 'work from'??? Every plumber, electrician and builder I know are mobile, they work on site. Smaller ones have an 'office' at home. Here they form a legal 'business' and have a 'registered address' with signage. To satisfy the relation the sign is usually on the back door to avoid the local council becoming concerned. As it is not public I would not map them. The larger firms of plumbers, electricians and builders have an office .. so I'd tag them as offices - they sell a service so fit the OSM description. As regards 'business' tagging .. the keys amenity, office, shop all contain businesses so generic tagging has been lost for business. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
Re “What's the preference of trade= against business= plumbers, electricians, builders etc who don't work out of an "office"?” Some of those do have offices, especially if it’s a company that employed several plumbers. But trade= is better than generic business= for the workshop of an individual tradesperson. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
This: https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2019-March/044160.html was the original discussion that I had been going to expand on, with the possibility of trade= for places like a plumber's workshop / shed etc. There was also discussion about craft= being more used for "one-off" hand-made handicrafts (wood turning, artists [as opposed to house painters] etc) What's the preference of trade= against business= plumbers, electricians, builders etc who don't work out of an "office"? Thanks Graeme ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
sent from a phone > On 18. Aug 2019, at 11:53, ael wrote: > > Of course, the more specific tagging is right where there is a good > match. +1, and where there isn’t yet a good match I’d prefer to invent one. Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 10:46:45PM +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > > On 17. Aug 2019, at 22:36, ael wrote: > > > > But do we have any generic terms already? Unless > > you just mean office. > > > businesses can already be found in amenity (e.g. food and drink, pharmacies, > post offices, prisons (US), etc.), tourism, leisure, shop, craft, office, > healthcare and probably more. I think those are "species" of businesses, rather than generic. I guess a slight mismatch with our understanding of semantics. Of course, the more specific tagging is right where there is a good match. ael ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
sent from a phone > On 17. Aug 2019, at 22:36, ael wrote: > > But do we have any generic terms already? Unless > you just mean office. businesses can already be found in amenity (e.g. food and drink, pharmacies, post offices, prisons (US), etc.), tourism, leisure, shop, craft, office, healthcare and probably more. Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
sent from a phone > On 17. Aug 2019, at 15:18, Paul Allen wrote: > > Also out of courtesy. yes, there may always be considerations from individual mappers to refrain from mapping certain things , for different reasons like courtesy, respect etc., and this is perfectly fine (more difficult to judge are deletions for such reasons) > >> Unlike real people, businesses don’t have privacy and should not be able to >> dictate what we can map and what not. > > But they do control if they make that information public. My > next-door-neighbour might > be running some sort of business from home, but if she is then she's keeping > it secret > from me. I can't map what I don't know about. not sure, this will probably depend on the jurisdiction, I am aware of situations where the addresses and names of businesses are public. Speaking about ordinary registered businesses here, if the activity is illegal or at least not registered for tax avoidance (likely illegal as well), the situation may be different, but usually you would require a VAT number and other businesses would have a means to check it, but this might also vary across jurisdictions. Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
sent from a phone > On 17. Aug 2019, at 13:49, Joseph Eisenberg > wrote: > > > I restarted the thread more recently with a specific example: > craft=atelier had just been documented after being used a dozen times, > and was added to the Key:craft page and to Map Features. My question > is: was this ok, or should it have been discussed first? IMHO wasn’t ok and should be reverted . Neither is “atelier” an English term, nor is it a craft. Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
On Sat, 17 Aug 2019 at 13:28, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > you have mentioned the owner’s wishes already yesterday, but I wasn’t > aware we had a requirement that the owners must tolerate having their > property mapped. We don't (that I know of). > So far I thought the only strict requirement was that the thing is > verifiably there. Indeed. If it's publicly verifiable, I map it. If I learn about a business from information which is not publicly verifiable then I ask the owner for permission. Because if the owner refuses that permission then another mapper may be unable to verify it. Also out of courtesy. > Unlike real people, businesses don’t have privacy and should not be able > to dictate what we can map and what not. > But they do control if they make that information public. My next-door-neighbour might be running some sort of business from home, but if she is then she's keeping it secret from me. I can't map what I don't know about. One Facebook-advertised beautician stated that she operated in a cabin on a named farm. I could identify the farm, but I couldn't figure out which outbuilding was hers so I couldn't map it with any precision. So I asked her for clarification and she said she didn't want to be mapped. I could visit her to get beautified (with all the effect of tying a ribbon on dog poop) and then I'd know and could map her whether she wanted it or not (but still might not do so if I thought she was operating on the black economy and there was a risk of it getting her prosecuted). I went past a farm, once. As well as the name of the farm, there was a sign saying "XYZ Holiday Cottages." I could spot the farmhouse (more of a mansion) from aerial imagery, but I could see many outbuildings that I was unable to identify the purpose of. Their web site had a pseudo-map identifying each holiday cottage - just about every outbuilding had been converted to a holiday cottage. Pseudo-map because it was an artistic rendition of a perspective shot taken from a drone. So I contacted them about mapping their cottages, asked about what the copyright on the map permitted, and told them if copyright prevented it we could still play "spot the ball" to identify them. They responded that not only did they want the holiday cottages unmapped they wanted the name of the farm removed. I refused to remove the farm name (it's "ABC Farm" in the hamlet ABC which has that farm and a couple of houses). If a fellow mapper ever stays at one of those cottages, they'll all get mapped. But I can't do it from the info I am allowed to use. For one business I learned the street name and house name: "The Old Surgery." Trouble is, there is no building with that name on that street. There is a surgery that closed a couple of months ago, but the name on the gatepost is still "Ashleigh Surgery" and there are no obvious signs it's in use. There are TWO other buildings on that street that were previously used by that same practice in years past: one is now the Citizen's Advice Bureau and has been for many years. I've never been able to pin down which of two houses was previously the other incarnation of the surgery, but both of them display names which are not "The Old Surgery." I'm guessing the business is in the recently-closed surgery, but I'm not certain. I contacted the owner who said he doesn't want to be mapped. I won't map my guess and probably wouldn't map the place even if I found out which of the three possibilities it is, unless that information were public. If a business does not make its location public then mapping it isn't required or generally useful, but I'm happy to do so as a courtesy if the owner wishes. If the location isn't public and the owner doesn't wish it mapped than I won't do so because of copyright and/or verifiability, but also to be courteous and because it's not going to benefit many people anyway. YMMV, but that is (currently) how I choose to do it. -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
sent from a phone > On 17. Aug 2019, at 13:22, Paul Allen wrote: > > But also no need not to map them should the > owners wish. you have mentioned the owner’s wishes already yesterday, but I wasn’t aware we had a requirement that the owners must tolerate having their property mapped. So far I thought the only strict requirement was that the thing is verifiably there. I guess there are a number of cases where we are mapping things that the owners would not want to have mapped (e.g. military areas, the whole of China, informal/illegal waste dumps, etc.) Unlike real people, businesses don’t have privacy and should not be able to dictate what we can map and what not. Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
On Sat, 17 Aug 2019 at 12:53, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: That is, should wiki users and mappers feel free to add any newly > documented values of craft=, shop=, building=, office=, and sport= to > the Map Features wiki page, and the Key page (eg Key:office, > Key:craft), or should this always be discussed first? > If we allow anyone to add values to the wiki without discussion then we can end up with bad values being documented and used. If we restrict the addition of values to the wiki we can end up with bad values being used and with good values being undocumented and often misused. I don't see a good solution to this. I hope that's because of intellectual limitations on my part. -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
On Sat, 17 Aug 2019 at 12:42, ael wrote: > > I would be all in favour of introducing "business" as long as it was > not restricted in that way. Easy with various values. It might > gradually evole and get used properly and gradually outnumber the old > misused office tag. Should not be too onerous for data consumers? > In theory, that sounds sensible. However, some carto offerings may be reluctant to render it. Some editors may be reluctant to switch to it, and maybe not even offer it as an alternative preset. Unless you can get buy-in here, and from editors, and from the more widely-used carto, it's not going to go anywhere. Yeah, I know, I'm being negative (again). I'm also being realistic. I often wish that the different divisions within OSM were better at joined-up thinking, but the anarchic nature of OSM means that probably won't happen. I've pretty much resigned myself to the fact that the best we can do here is try to avoid making new mistakes because we can't fixed entrenched mistakes. -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
This thread actually started with the question in the title: "Keys to which new values can be added (to Map Features) without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?" That is, should wiki users and mappers feel free to add any newly documented values of craft=, shop=, building=, office=, and sport= to the Map Features wiki page, and the Key page (eg Key:office, Key:craft), or should this always be discussed first? I restarted the thread more recently with a specific example: craft=atelier had just been documented after being used a dozen times, and was added to the Key:craft page and to Map Features. My question is: was this ok, or should it have been discussed first? It appears that most users here would prefer that there be some discussion in some forum before new tags are added to the more formal lists, so that cases like craft=atelier can be improved. But a number of people (in another thread) are in favor of encouraging all new tags to be documented at a page like Tag:office=new_value so that it's clear how they were being used, even if they were not discussed. Joseph On 8/17/19, ael wrote: > On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 12:27:22PM +0100, Paul Allen wrote: >> It's both. Perhaps, with hindsight, most would agree that is sub-optimal >> but that's >> the way it is. More importantly, it's been that way for long enough that >> fixing it is >> probably not possible. > > Unfortunately, you are probably right. But this thread started with a > suggestion for a new(?) tag of business although perhaps restricted > to handmade/handicraft. > > I would be all in favour of introducing "business" as long as it was > not restricted in that way. Easy with various values. It might > gradually evole and get used properly and gradually outnumber the old > misused office tag. Should not be too onerous for data consumers? > > ael > > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 12:27:22PM +0100, Paul Allen wrote: > It's both. Perhaps, with hindsight, most would agree that is sub-optimal > but that's > the way it is. More importantly, it's been that way for long enough that > fixing it is > probably not possible. Unfortunately, you are probably right. But this thread started with a suggestion for a new(?) tag of business although perhaps restricted to handmade/handicraft. I would be all in favour of introducing "business" as long as it was not restricted in that way. Easy with various values. It might gradually evole and get used properly and gradually outnumber the old misused office tag. Should not be too onerous for data consumers? ael ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
On Sat, 17 Aug 2019 at 11:55, ael wrote: > > But surely parcels are seldom delivered to an "office" but typically to > reception in a business. Of course, reception may be part of an office, > especially in small organisations. > I'd normally class a reception as part of the larger organization it serves, and not worth micro-mapping. For something like a camp site then marking the reception is important, and it may or may not be the location where paperwork is carried out. But for the office of a lawyer or accountant or similar, the reception is just part of the office. > > But my point was that as I understood things, the office tag was typically > used > to indicate a place of business, rather than a real office which may or > may not included. > It's both. Perhaps, with hindsight, most would agree that is sub-optimal but that's the way it is. More importantly, it's been that way for long enough that fixing it is probably not possible. -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
On Sat, 17 Aug 2019 at 01:55, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote: > On 17/08/19 07:54, Paul Allen wrote: > > On Fri, 16 Aug 2019 at 22:33, Martin Koppenhoefer > wrote: > > That said, in the few cases like that where a company doesn't specifically > make its location > public knowledge, if I find out it's there I check if it wants its > location mapped. If it doesn't,. > I map only the building name/number. > > If it can be seen from the street then it is a navigational aid and should > be mapped, even if the general public cannot go there. > Indeed. However, the cases I was thinking of there is no signage indicating what the place is. So not a navigational aid. Most people who need to go there know where it is or can find out. So no need to map them. But also no need not to map them should the owners wish. If nothing else, having one of them on the map would answer the question "The doctors' surgery that closed a few months ago, what's it being used for now?" There are also one-person businesses that I see advertised in a Facebook group for my local area. I often ask the ones where customers/clients go to their location to help me add them to the map. Some are very enthusiastic to help. Others say very firmly that they do not wish to appear. I'm guessing the ones that don't want to be mapped (usually "beauticians" of some sort) are claiming unemployment benefits or dodging the tax man (or both) and think that appearing on a map makes it more likely they'll be investigated. Facebook is a far bigger exposure, but that appears to be how they think. OSM maps military establishments where the general public cannot go. > Knowing where you can't go is important in navigation. Especially if you can't go there because it's a firing range. -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
On Fri, Aug 16, 2019 at 10:54:52PM +0100, Paul Allen wrote: > On Fri, 16 Aug 2019 at 22:33, Martin Koppenhoefer > wrote: > > > > > The way I see it, we’re mapping the world, as it is. Not just places where > > the general public may have an interest in navigating to it. If you were to > > make an analysis about the functional structure of a city you would want to > > know about the offices, even if they are not open to anyone besides their > > clients and business partners. > > > > And parcel deliverers. And others. Just because most people don't need or > want to know > about them, that doesn't mean nobody wants to know. But surely parcels are seldom delivered to an "office" but typically to reception in a business. Of course, reception may be part of an office, especially in small organisations. But my point was that as I understood things, the office tag was typically used to indicate a place of business, rather than a real office which may or may not included. Of course, I have no problem with tagging significant real offices with the office tag. ael ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
On 17/08/19 07:54, Paul Allen wrote: On Fri, 16 Aug 2019 at 22:33, Martin Koppenhoefer mailto:dieterdre...@gmail.com>> wrote: The way I see it, we’re mapping the world, as it is. Not just places where the general public may have an interest in navigating to it. If you were to make an analysis about the functional structure of a city you would want to know about the offices, even if they are not open to anyone besides their clients and business partners. And parcel deliverers. And others. Just because most people don't need or want to know about them, that doesn't mean nobody wants to know. That said, in the few cases like that where a company doesn't specifically make its location public knowledge, if I find out it's there I check if it wants its location mapped. If it doesn't,. I map only the building name/number. If it can be seen from the street then it is a navigational aid and should be mapped, even if the general public cannot go there. OSM maps military establishments where the general public cannot go. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
On Fri, 16 Aug 2019 at 22:33, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > The way I see it, we’re mapping the world, as it is. Not just places where > the general public may have an interest in navigating to it. If you were to > make an analysis about the functional structure of a city you would want to > know about the offices, even if they are not open to anyone besides their > clients and business partners. > And parcel deliverers. And others. Just because most people don't need or want to know about them, that doesn't mean nobody wants to know. That said, in the few cases like that where a company doesn't specifically make its location public knowledge, if I find out it's there I check if it wants its location mapped. If it doesn't,. I map only the building name/number. -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
sent from a phone > On 16. Aug 2019, at 15:13, ael wrote: > > I could never see the point in tagging offices which are of no intrinsic > interest except perhaps to office equipment suppliers. The way I see it, we’re mapping the world, as it is. Not just places where the general public may have an interest in navigating to it. If you were to make an analysis about the functional structure of a city you would want to know about the offices, even if they are not open to anyone besides their clients and business partners. I completely agree not to map places with the office tag that aren’t offices. Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
On Fri, 16 Aug 2019 at 12:52, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > IMHO what may be needed is “workshop” rather than business. > Artists will probably be upset by "workshop" and will insist they have studios (which is where we came in). Whilst it might be sensible to have something (whatever we call it) it is going to end up replacing the bulk of craft=*. Which may not be a bad thing. Having craft=sculptor seems to imply we're mapping a person. Using office=lawyer is fine because it's an office where a lawyer (or lawyers) work. But craft=sculptor would, if interpreted pedantically, be a place which manufactures sculptors from raw materials. But then we have craft=brewery rather than craft=brewer, so we've been rather inconsistent. Also, workshop=brewer is rather ugly. At this point we remember how hard it is to change anything that's widespread, and quietly forget about the whole issue. -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
sent from a phone > On 16. Aug 2019, at 09:02, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: > > I've been intending to work on a proposal but haven't had a chance - > worthwhile? IMHO what may be needed is “workshop” rather than business. We are already tagging many kinds of businesses with the tags amenity, shop and office. Business would be mostly overlapping with these established tags. Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
We discussed this a few month ago with the possibility of introducing a new tag of business= to show such things as (house) painters, plumbers "shed" & so on for work premises that aren't "craft", which suggests handmade / handicraft. I've been intending to work on a proposal but haven't had a chance - worthwhile? Thanks Graeme ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
I certainly expect that professional artists who design sculptures out of metal have staff who are proficient at their tasks, including welding, brazing, forging and such. Traditionally an artist who worked in bronze or another metal would be expected to have the highest standards in their craft, since an artwork such as a metal sculpture is costly and usually intended to last for many years of public display. While some modern artists purposely make impermanent works now, the level of technical skill required remains quite high. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
On Thu, Aug 15, 2019 at 9:07 AM Andy Townsend wrote: > On 15/08/2019 14:26, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: > > How about "craft=artist" then? The tag "craft=atelier" was described > > as for any type of artist: "workshop of a ...professional artist in > > the fine or decorative arts" > > "craft=artist" is much better in my view - people are far more likely to > know what it means. > > (whether this should be somehow be embedded in the map features page is > an entirely different question though). > > I'm struggling understanding the craft=artist (and especially craft=atelier) from the perspective of an artist. Artists (at least the ones I know) usually have a craft speciality, like painting, wood, medal, glass, fabric, etc. But their studios are very different than the typical craft person that works with the same material. Just tagging craft=artist or craft=artist_studio doesn't convey much information. I'm not even sure that artist belongs in the craft namespace. For example, craft=welder would be expected to be proficient in their craft while an artist may need to take short cuts when creating an art object. It would be sufficiently safe for display, but possibly not structurally sound. I would suggest we move artist from the craft discussion on to its own thread. Best, Clifford -- @osm_washington www.snowandsnow.us OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
sent from a phone On 15. Aug 2019, at 20:38, Paul Allen wrote: >> will have much more extensive storage requirements than painters do (e.g. >> scaffolding or concrete workers/formwork). > > A dedicated storage area is not a shop, or an office, or a workshop. true, but the typical situation goes like this: craft business residing on a site, there’s a building and often outdoor space (depends on context) which contains (fractions depend on the profession and specialization) the workshop, storage areas (for the workshop: raw material, finished/intermediate products, waste, tools; vehicles) and a room for office work (plus toilets etc.). Mapping this (only) as office would be a misrepresentation of the situation. Wouldn’t we want to distinguish sites where craft work is done from administrative work places? Currently it isn’t explicit and can only be guessed. Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
On Thu, 15 Aug 2019 at 19:02, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > > On 15. Aug 2019, at 16:59, Paul Allen wrote: > > > > A craft=painter (current meaning) is where paperwork is done and perhaps > > where equipment is stored, but it is not where the actual craft of > decorating takes place. > > a painter is somehow special in this, but not the only craft where it is > the case, many places where craftsmen have their office is also where their > workshop is, e.g. woodworkers like carpenters, window construction, stone > masons, metal workshops like iron forging or steel work, car repairs (ok > those are usually in the amenity space in OpenStreetMap), bakers, etc. and > also some other craftmen which work mostly on site Ummm, you seem to contradict yourself there. Painters/decorators work at their craft wherever their craft is needed, not in their office/storage space. Carpenters are the same. Stone masons, it depends: those repairing buildings may do preparatory work in their "office" and other work on site; stone makers who carve gravestones rarely do anything except minor repairs in a graveyard. Window construction these days is usually in a workshop rather than on site. Going in the other direction, wood turners (who use a lathe to produce bowls, vases, etc.) are craftspeople with a workshop (which may also double as storage space and as an office for paperwork). I've mapped one who had a home workshop and let people visit by appointment to see his wares and is in the process of moving to a dedicated building which will house his workshop and also be a shop for his own wares and other handicraft such as jewellery produced by others. I'll map that as a shop, and maybe fit his workshop in if there's room without a renderer collision wiping out the shop. > will have much more extensive storage requirements than painters do (e.g. > scaffolding or concrete workers/formwork). > A dedicated storage area is not a shop, or an office, or a workshop. Going by the other values, craft=* is for workshops/studios and not shops or offices. Places where the craft is actually performed, not where the results are sold, the raw materials are stored or the paperwork is done. -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
sent from a phone > On 15. Aug 2019, at 16:59, Paul Allen wrote: > > A craft=painter (current meaning) is where paperwork is done and perhaps > where equipment is stored, but it is not where the actual craft of decorating > takes place. a painter is somehow special in this, but not the only craft where it is the case, many places where craftsmen have their office is also where their workshop is, e.g. woodworkers like carpenters, window construction, stone masons, metal workshops like iron forging or steel work, car repairs (ok those are usually in the amenity space in OpenStreetMap), bakers, etc. and also some other craftmen which work mostly on site will have much more extensive storage requirements than painters do (e.g. scaffolding or concrete workers/formwork). Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
sent from a phone > On 15. Aug 2019, at 16:59, Paul Allen wrote: > > Yes, but under the current system (which is probably too deeply embedded to > fix) an office can > be one of two basic types: > > 1) A place for doing paperwork or other administrative tasks. > > 2) A place selling services to the public. Essentially a shop, but for > non-physical items. > > There are overlaps. A call centre fits both of the above. a shop is “A place selling retail products or services.” note the word retail (aiming at end users) an office is “A place of business, similar to shops” (great ;-) ) and also: “An office is a place of business where administrative or professional work is carried out. “ and also “See the page titled Office for an introduction on its usage.” (IMHO bad, we should not split tag definitions over several pages. UPDATE: is self referential, ie links back to itself currently, please someone fix it by removing it, it’s on a template I don’t want to mess with it on the phone). Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
On 15/08/2019 14:26, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: How about "craft=artist" then? The tag "craft=atelier" was described as for any type of artist: "workshop of a ...professional artist in the fine or decorative arts" "craft=artist" is much better in my view - people are far more likely to know what it means. (whether this should be somehow be embedded in the map features page is an entirely different question though). Best Regards, Andy ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
On Thu, 15 Aug 2019 at 15:40, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > I agree painter is ambiguous, but office is about an office, while the > place of a decorator would probably not just be an office but contain all > the tools and paint and stuff they need to do their work. > Yes, but under the current system (which is probably too deeply embedded to fix) an office can be one of two basic types: 1) A place for doing paperwork or other administrative tasks. 2) A place selling services to the public. Essentially a shop, but for non-physical items. There are overlaps. A call centre fits both of the above. A decorator's "office" might well contain tools and consumables. But the public would not, in general, be expected to visit. You don't dismantle your house and take the pieces to a decorator's office to be painted, then take them back and reassemble them. The actual work of the decorator takes place elsewhere. A sculptor, in general, carves stone and wood in a place tagged craft=sculptor. A sculptor might also do work at other locations, but craft=sculptor is a studio/workshop and not, generally, for public access. A craft=painter (current meaning) is where paperwork is done and perhaps where equipment is stored, but it is not where the actual craft of decorating takes place. With hindsight we'd have designed a more consistent tagging scheme. We have to do the best we can with what we have. We might be able to deprecate craft=painter, though, since it's wrong on two counts: it's not a place where the craft activity takes place and it would be better as "decorator" than the ambiguous "painter." -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
sent from a phone > On 15. Aug 2019, at 15:26, Joseph Eisenberg > wrote: > > How about "craft=artist" then? The tag "craft=atelier" was described > as for any type of artist: "workshop of a ...professional artist in > the fine or decorative arts" I would not have thought to put artists into craft, usual values are not fitting all that well together with art, IMHO. Maybe we need a workshop tag? Office could also be considered. Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
sent from a phone > On 15. Aug 2019, at 14:16, Paul Allen wrote: > > sense for house painters, it should be office=painter (or, better, > office=decorator). > If I want somebody to paint my house I expect him to apply paint to my house, > not to his > own office, so he doesn't (normally) perform his craft in his own office. I agree painter is ambiguous, but office is about an office, while the place of a decorator would probably not just be an office but contain all the tools and paint and stuff they need to do their work. Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
sent from a phone > On 15. Aug 2019, at 13:29, Joseph Eisenberg > wrote: > > of the new page mentions that this may be a problem because > amenity=studio is also used for TV, Radio and Music recording studios. yes, IMHO we should completely avoid the term “studio”, as it can refer to lots of different things and contexts (e.g. it may be used for small offices of all kind). We should make it something like recording_studio, or transmission_studio or television_studio or radio_studio or art_studio or film_studio etc. Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
On Thu, 15 Aug 2019 at 14:28, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: > I can't believe I didn't notice the misspelling. Well, that is a major > problem with this value. > Not so much if one uses editor presets. The fact that so few know what it means is a bigger problem, but potentially soluble via editor search functions. Even so, if you type "artist" into search and one of the returns is "atelier" would you use it? Probably not unless you already knew what it meant. How about "craft=artist" then? The tag "craft=atelier" was described > as for any type of artist: "workshop of a ...professional artist in > the fine or decorative arts" > Because a sculptor is an artist. There are many types of art. If it had been suggested before we already had craft=sculptor and the like then OK, because we could have subtagged with art=*. Maybe we should do that and deprecate the craft=* values that are types of artist. -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
I can't believe I didn't notice the misspelling. Well, that is a major problem with this value. How about "craft=artist" then? The tag "craft=atelier" was described as for any type of artist: "workshop of a ...professional artist in the fine or decorative arts" Wikipedia says "In art, the atelier consists of a master artist, usually a professional painter, sculptor, or from the mid-19th century a fine art photographer, working with a small number of students to train them in visual or fine arts. This very word has also taken on other similar meanings, indicating a place of work and study of the haute couture fashion designer, hair stylist and artists in general" The Key:craft page suggests that values should take the form of a singular noun describing the craftsperson: "If using the English language, please use the singular form, e.g. carpenter not carpenters" - so "artist" or "designer" or "fine_art_painter" is better than a word that describes the whole workshop/studio/building. -Joseph On 8/15/19, Paul Allen wrote: > On Thu, 15 Aug 2019 at 12:31, Joseph Eisenberg > wrote: > >> >> Today a new wiki page was created for Tag:craft=artelier and the tag >> was added to Template:Map_Features:craft, which adds this tag to the >> Map Features page. It's been used 15 times. In comparison, studio=art >> has been used 13 times, and studio=creative 17 times, but the author >> of the new page mentions that this may be a problem because >> amenity=studio is also used for TV, Radio and Music recording studios. >> > > The last time I checked (a few days ago) the wiki stated that > amenity=studio > is only for TV/Radio/Music studios. For what I wanted to map, > amenity=arts_centre was the way to go. > > In American English I've heard of artist's studios or art workshops, >> but I'd not heard the word "artelier" before today. (Per Oxford >> online, it's "A workshop or studio, especially one used by an artist >> or designer.") >> > > Atelier is not common in British English either. I'd never hear of it > before. It's > also a word that is prone to being mis-spelled as "artelier" it appears. > >> >> So, does this mean it is okay for craft=artelier to be added to the >> official Map Features list? Should it be discussed first? >> > > If somebody hadn't already decided that craft=painter meant house painters > rather than artists, I'd have said use that. In fact, craft=painter makes > no > sense for house painters, it should be office=painter (or, better, > office=decorator). > If I want somebody to paint my house I expect him to apply paint to my > house, not to his > own office, so he doesn't (normally) perform his craft in his own office. > But it's probably > too late to fix that. Well, we can (and probably should) deprecate > craft=painter in favour of > office=decorator but it's probably too late to give a new meaning to > craft=painter. > > Since we have craft=sculptor and craft=handicraft, then for completeness we > need something for the studios of painters. OTOH, do we need to map > any of those in the first place? I've done so, but only in the cases where > the > same building is used as both the place to create the works and as a shop > for those works, and that's because somebody who goes in to buy may be > given the opportunity to see the artist at work. > > -- > Paul > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
On Thu, 15 Aug 2019 at 12:31, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: > > Today a new wiki page was created for Tag:craft=artelier and the tag > was added to Template:Map_Features:craft, which adds this tag to the > Map Features page. It's been used 15 times. In comparison, studio=art > has been used 13 times, and studio=creative 17 times, but the author > of the new page mentions that this may be a problem because > amenity=studio is also used for TV, Radio and Music recording studios. > The last time I checked (a few days ago) the wiki stated that amenity=studio is only for TV/Radio/Music studios. For what I wanted to map, amenity=arts_centre was the way to go. In American English I've heard of artist's studios or art workshops, > but I'd not heard the word "artelier" before today. (Per Oxford > online, it's "A workshop or studio, especially one used by an artist > or designer.") > Atelier is not common in British English either. I'd never hear of it before. It's also a word that is prone to being mis-spelled as "artelier" it appears. > > So, does this mean it is okay for craft=artelier to be added to the > official Map Features list? Should it be discussed first? > If somebody hadn't already decided that craft=painter meant house painters rather than artists, I'd have said use that. In fact, craft=painter makes no sense for house painters, it should be office=painter (or, better, office=decorator). If I want somebody to paint my house I expect him to apply paint to my house, not to his own office, so he doesn't (normally) perform his craft in his own office. But it's probably too late to fix that. Well, we can (and probably should) deprecate craft=painter in favour of office=decorator but it's probably too late to give a new meaning to craft=painter. Since we have craft=sculptor and craft=handicraft, then for completeness we need something for the studios of painters. OTOH, do we need to map any of those in the first place? I've done so, but only in the cases where the same building is used as both the place to create the works and as a shop for those works, and that's because somebody who goes in to buy may be given the opportunity to see the artist at work. -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
So I mentioned above that it seems that craft=, building=, office=, shop= and sport= values are frequently added to the "Map Features" list page without discussion. Today a new wiki page was created for Tag:craft=artelier and the tag was added to Template:Map_Features:craft, which adds this tag to the Map Features page. It's been used 15 times. In comparison, studio=art has been used 13 times, and studio=creative 17 times, but the author of the new page mentions that this may be a problem because amenity=studio is also used for TV, Radio and Music recording studios. In American English I've heard of artist's studios or art workshops, but I'd not heard the word "artelier" before today. (Per Oxford online, it's "A workshop or studio, especially one used by an artist or designer.") There are 3 craft=* values with even less usage on the page: cooper - 5 uses mint - 2 uses piano_tuner - 12 uses So, does this mean it is okay for craft=artelier to be added to the official Map Features list? Should it be discussed first? See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Template:Map_Features:craft https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:craft%3Datelier - Joseph On 8/1/19, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > > sent from a phone > >> On 1. Aug 2019, at 02:24, Graeme Fitzpatrick >> wrote: >> >> But what are "generally established" & "significant numbers"? >> >> 500 / 1000 / 5000 ? > > > it may not only be about numbers (e.g. competing tags?) and it depends how > frequent the feature is in the real world, and maybe also how relevant we > consider it for the general public, e.g. tags about railway safety systems > might not be suitable for the map features page even if all of them were > mapped, because you need specialist knowledge to tag it. > > > Cheers Martin > > > Cheers Martin > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
On Wed, 31 Jul 2019 at 22:37, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > only after it has become generally established :) > > while none of these conditions are maybe absolute hard requirements, IMHO > most of them should be fulfilled: > > - is used in significant numbers by many different people > But what are "generally established" & "significant numbers"? 500 / 1000 / 5000 ? On Wed, 31 Jul 2019 at 22:47, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: > My thought was that we could clarify that certain types of new > features can be added to the Map Features pages without meeting all > those characteristics (shops, offices) but that other types shouldn't > be added without discussion. > Not a bad idea. It would also be handy to have something very prominent up the top of the page to tell people to search via the Wiki box up top right, & also via TagInfo (with link), to see if an appropriate tag already exists. Thanks Graeme ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
sent from a phone > On 31. Jul 2019, at 14:46, Joseph Eisenberg > wrote: > > My thought was that we could clarify that certain types of new > features can be added to the Map Features pages without meeting all > those characteristics (shops, offices) but that other types shouldn't > be added without discussion. I’m unsure about the map features page, although I occasionally pass by I have not really been using it for many years. My idea about it is that it is an introductory or summary page to explain the tagging system in principle, essentially aiming at newbies, so it shouldn’t be too long (which it clearly is at the moment). For finding tags I would recommend taginfo and the wiki search. Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
> - is used in significant numbers by many different people > - has presets in different applications > - is used by at least one “important” data user (e.g. OpenStreetMap carto, > routing service, osmand, etc.) > - is used on several continents and not just in a limited geographic area > (otherwise it shouldn’t appear on the global map features list) > - has a definition and it is (largely ) undisputed I used to think that these were requirements for all features. but many values of shop=, building=, office= and even some types of barriers= have been added without discussion when they are still rarely used. My thought was that we could clarify that certain types of new features can be added to the Map Features pages without meeting all those characteristics (shops, offices) but that other types shouldn't be added without discussion. If you want to be strict about those standards above, there are several dozen tags that would need to be removed from Map Features. I'm actually ok with that option, but it seems unnecessary for values of keys where the key itself is enough for rendering and general classification. Joseph On 7/31/19, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > > sent from a phone > >> On 31. Jul 2019, at 10:50, Joseph Eisenberg >> wrote: >> >> when should a new value should be added to the wiki page "Map Features". > > > only after it has become generally established :) > > while none of these conditions are maybe absolute hard requirements, IMHO > most of them should be fulfilled: > > - is used in significant numbers by many different people > - has presets in different applications > - is used by at least one “important” data user (e.g. OpenStreetMap carto, > routing service, osmand, etc.) > - is used on several continents and not just in a limited geographic area > (otherwise it shouldn’t appear on the global map features list) > - has a definition and it is (largely ) undisputed > > Cheers Martin > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > On 7/31/19, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > > sent from a phone > >> On 31. Jul 2019, at 10:50, Joseph Eisenberg >> wrote: >> >> when should a new value should be added to the wiki page "Map Features". > > > only after it has become generally established :) > > while none of these conditions are maybe absolute hard requirements, IMHO > most of them should be fulfilled: > > - is used in significant numbers by many different people > - has presets in different applications > - is used by at least one “important” data user (e.g. OpenStreetMap carto, > routing service, osmand, etc.) > - is used on several continents and not just in a limited geographic area > (otherwise it shouldn’t appear on the global map features list) > - has a definition and it is (largely ) undisputed > > Cheers Martin > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
sent from a phone > On 31. Jul 2019, at 10:50, Joseph Eisenberg > wrote: > > when should a new value should be added to the wiki page "Map Features". only after it has become generally established :) while none of these conditions are maybe absolute hard requirements, IMHO most of them should be fulfilled: - is used in significant numbers by many different people - has presets in different applications - is used by at least one “important” data user (e.g. OpenStreetMap carto, routing service, osmand, etc.) - is used on several continents and not just in a limited geographic area (otherwise it shouldn’t appear on the global map features list) - has a definition and it is (largely ) undisputed Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
On Wed, 31 Jul 2019 at 07:47, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: > Based on current practice, it seems that most people are ok with > adding new values to certain keys that already have a long list of > documented values in map features, as long as the tag is frequently > used and well-documented? > It depends, as others have already pointed out on this thread. The wiki pages for some keys, such as shop=* have a special value "user defined" which is "All commonly used values according to Taginfo." For those, it is implicit that values can be added without discussion, if they meet certain criteria. As ever, it ends up as "use your common sense." I'd also point out that at least one editor populates some of its drop-downs from Wiki pages (more recently it uses the Wikidata in some cases). This may be a factor in your considerations. -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
Le 31.07.19 à 10:50, Joseph Eisenberg a écrit : > when should a new value should be added to the wiki page "Map Features". imho when the key is : - documented - well used/supported - not controversial ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
I apologize for the unclear wording. I'm not asking if a proposal is needed for creating a new key or value. Anyone can make up a new tag, and this happens hundreds of times a day. I'm asking: when should a new value should be added to the wiki page "Map Features". The idea is that for a key like "shop=" or "office=", the key itself is enough to define the feature for most purposes. Most map makers or apps will just show one icon for all or most types of shop, and for most types of office, so it's probably fine if users add more of these to Map Features under "Shop" and "Office" - it won't cause any problems. Probably it still should be mentioned in a public forum at least once, but a proposal would be a bit of a waste of time for a specialty tag "shop=fountain_pens" (a shop specializing in selling fountain pens). In contrast, I wouldn't have added "waterway=tidal_channel" to the 3 existing natural waterway types on Map Features without an approved proposal, since that would be a major change to the whole tagging system for waterways which requires community discussion. On 7/31/19, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > > sent from a phone > >> On 31. Jul 2019, at 09:20, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> There is no requirement for a proposal for values or keys of any kind. >> A proposal is at best a 'recommendation', not a 'requirement'. > > > +1 > > Cheers Martin > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
sent from a phone > On 31. Jul 2019, at 09:20, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote: > > There is no requirement for a proposal for values or keys of any kind. > A proposal is at best a 'recommendation', not a 'requirement'. +1 Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
On 31/07/19 16:45, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: Based on current practice, it seems that most people are ok with adding new values to certain keys that already have a long list of documented values in map features, as long as the tag is frequently used and well-documented? The relevant keys appear to be: craft= building= office= shop= sport= Are there any others that don't need a proposal to add a new value to Map Features? There is no requirement for a proposal for values or keys of any kind. A proposal is at best a 'recommendation', not a 'requirement'. "Any tag you like" is one of the OSM mantras. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Any_tags_you_like It is 'desirable' to consult others before creating new values or keys as this can lead to a better tag. But there is no requirement. I'd like to mention this at the end of the Proposal Process page, as the final lines of "Non-proposed features" like this: "Generally, new [keys] should always be discussed before being added to [Map features], and new tags in major keys like "highway=" should be formally proposed. A proposal is also recommended for any new tag which replaces an existing tag. "However, if a tag is commonly used and clearly documented in the wiki, and does not replace an existing tag, new values for certain keys with can be added without a proposal to these keys: craft=, building=, office=, shop= and sport=. Please discuss the new tag in a public forum before adding to Map Features." Does everyone agree with this wording? Err No. It is misleading to say "new values for certain keys with can be added without a proposal" as new values can be add to any key without a proposal. Indeed new keys can be added without a proposal. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?
Based on current practice, it seems that most people are ok with adding new values to certain keys that already have a long list of documented values in map features, as long as the tag is frequently used and well-documented? The relevant keys appear to be: craft= building= office= shop= sport= Are there any others that don't need a proposal to add a new value to Map Features? I'd like to mention this at the end of the Proposal Process page, as the final lines of "Non-proposed features" like this: "Generally, new [keys] should always be discussed before being added to [Map features], and new tags in major keys like "highway=" should be formally proposed. A proposal is also recommended for any new tag which replaces an existing tag. "However, if a tag is commonly used and clearly documented in the wiki, and does not replace an existing tag, new values for certain keys with can be added without a proposal to these keys: craft=, building=, office=, shop= and sport=. Please discuss the new tag in a public forum before adding to Map Features." Does everyone agree with this wording? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
