Re: [Tagging] Long Tail ( was Removal of amenity from OSM tagging)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On 19. Mai 2015 03:18:14 MESZ, johnw jo...@mac.com wrote: there’s no preset “I want to add a business” or “I want to add a park” tutorials that walk through the basics and hold your hand, bring up options and ask you natural language questions to help you learn how to tag things. a person who just wants to add a node tag can have very little asked of them, and the node placed in the correct spot. another mapper can flesh it out later. I've many times suggested that if we really want to exploit the long tail we need wizards not simple editors (I'm not sure that the later actually exists). We shoudn't kid ourselves though, we are unlikely to squezze a higher conversion rate to reasonably active mappers out of our audience that way, just a longer long tail. Any way we do it we are asking for people to spend more/a significant amount of time contributing and that will only happen if somebody is actually interested in the subject matter. - -- Written with a pen -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: APG v1.1.1 iQE6BAEBCgAkBQJVWvPCHRxTaW1vbiBQb29sZSA8c2ltb25AcG9vbGUuY2g+AAoJ EEchcRCS4oLq7oYIALra+wxJH1Ed8cuUWBhPu5zwyej5+YkkOGMj6smxaaYbiSkU GmiQ6xxJionB+LCKIHo82JYb8fnvFmDyZrycZQvpZdO9IKLl1iPSQKrOsgEQfpp1 iZUo1cnnyrEivmtISUWI0Vm3c5X1vOViDgWi1YbxUgBB3h227Hg98VEXEGq62sU0 7mTFXlvsGOh3Z07xGI7vNh3azDwX1I39MOHaO/hbIbCtBlmtBvfwj/UgoczGkdg4 NDKL0RZEhufNlDXIreZmrOfWnkro/XRrJdTzxX7RR8nJpHqT4yfLC1g0o0s3H8He +fdCk5rmXyY0l9lO31nCSk6nV6LxlMQG3ZyXhL4= =whR9 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Long Tail ( was Removal of amenity from OSM tagging)
johnw wrote: As far as I can tell, the differences between novices like me and more power users is a) using JSOM or similar, and b) using relations. that is an insanely high bar to jump over. I'll let you into another secret. Of the 5% of mappers doing 95% of the work... most are not doing anything particularly powerful. Only four types of relations are actually consumed worldwide to any significant extent: multipolygons, routes, turn restrictions, and boundaries. iD and P2 provide dedicated UI for the first three to hide the complexities. (Boundaries are hard.) Sure, there are a thousand other relation uses documented on the wiki, but they're pretty much a distraction. No-one consumes them.[1] Imports/bulk edits aside, the busy mappers are pretty much doing the same mapping as you. Nothing complex, nothing powerful. They're just doing more of it. So you can use iD, P2, JOSM, whatever you find comfortable and efficient. No bar-jumping required. (That's not to say that we can't do better at catering for the 95%, because we can. But that's a whole other question and one which potentially requires new types of editing software. More on that in my SOTM-US talk!) cheers Richard [1] For the completists, two more which _are_ consumed, though just a little: public transport site relations, and that weird old associatedStreet thing (which you can tell is broken just by the intercap). -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Re-Long-Tail-was-Removal-of-amenity-from-OSM-tagging-tp5844850p5845110.html Sent from the Tagging mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Long Tail ( was Removal of amenity from OSM tagging)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 We don't have access to non - editing accounts, speculating on the composition of them is just that. We do know that not all of the roughly 1.5 million are spammers, See my two recent diary posts for more, On 19. Mai 2015 04:55:30 MESZ, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 5:28 PM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us wrote: I invite each user to join our Meetup Group and invite them to contact me if they have any questions. The response rate is low. A survey could help us identify why they joined, how they want to use OSM and what special interests they have any their desired way of contributing. Based on my experience running other sites, a huge fraction of the new users are bots. Yes, bots that respond to email. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging - -- Written with a pen -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: APG v1.1.1 iQE6BAEBCgAkBQJVWu4gHRxTaW1vbiBQb29sZSA8c2ltb25AcG9vbGUuY2g+AAoJ EEchcRCS4oLqdlgIALPQvdUPy7/1O1SwlyZnn7cq61ksi25XWlYlHnaKrTSCXiWX ak8hYU8ejRDSwDlen6F1evxAGolla24ylrH0tIza3fOmN0ej7rhTtl1UTnyzzDox 91Ikdp4CHiH70USfPpNC+Xxj0lnqSGUU7q6qH1XH3TzYUTwW+QhUBcRkDgIkhcqL 1t0/Wg3QXwFh5D49JC3vPA7cnr9ySiXyCpz3RE1KTfP5584ZY9Mc6dE2AUVBFpHC RhZySNWCCBtAedafU9mAskJOwy+nni/n4RZ8NntGntrGdAaSQyyZ852OKgkyTMFF G7ASRYgWC99MJveRIuaN4sspa5YSgfH6qDQnbQk= =/JZU -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Long Tail ( was Removal of amenity from OSM tagging)
On 19 May 2015 at 02:18, johnw jo...@mac.com wrote: On May 19, 2015, at 2:24 AM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us wrote: You might ask, so what is keeping people from editing? We don’t need to speculate. It’s easy to understand what is holding people back. It’s the same thing that hold people back from replacing the brakes on their car - there is a lot of knowlege and technique needed to do even a simple car repair job correctly - and when presented with that reality, people walk away from the job and have a “pro” do it. There is no slow process to being exposed to the OSM data editing process, and that means digesting the entire tagging structure in a very short period. When people realize this, they walk. As far as I can tell, the differences between novices like me and more power users is a) using JSOM or similar, and b) using relations. that is an insanely high bar to jump over. Video games walk you through the control scheme, interaction model, and basic weapons when you first start. they don’t give you everything all at once in the middle of a boss fight and expect you to learn and enjoy it. But that is what is expected in OSM - even with how good iD looks/works. you can pick up “Street Fighter” and mash buttons and the characters move. Professionals know all the esoteric combos to make the fighters do advanced and amazing things, but that complexity is not presented to the beginning user. If you load up iD to add a tag for your business (and, lets say, the building itself) - you need to know Amenity= building= shop= opening_hours, landuse= how to tag driveways, parking, street numbers, and a whole lot that most users have trouble digesting - to say noting if the existing map looks like it does in Tokyo or london, or nothing at all in less mapped areas - all the existing complexity (or complete lack of anything) is very daunting. I think that all of that information is useful and necessary, but there is little way to have the mapper tag those things without understanding all the rationales and nuances of all those tags. there’s no preset “I want to add a business” or “I want to add a park” tutorials that walk through the basics and hold your hand, bring up options and ask you natural language questions to help you learn how to tag things. a person who just wants to add a node tag can have very little asked of them, and the node placed in the correct spot. another mapper can flesh it out later. Its like learning brain surgery by having a brain presented to you your first day of kindergarten - Only a small percent of the people will naturally be interested enough (or understand enough) to be able to interact with something so complicated when it's presented to them. And this is without all the weird inconsistencies, omissions, and probably unnatural language used in the tagging scheme - which goes on top of all of that. Javbw Sadly John, that's totally right. Having said that, there's more - the way OSM 'works' as a community itself - it's broken in about 7 dimensions. There are so many communication methods - lists, Github, wiki; not even all the lists behave the same way re 'replyto:' - some reply to the list others are set to reply to the poster. Seriously, coming across all the dead / abandoned wikid proposals makes it look like OSM can't agree on anything and the attitude of some of the 'old-timers' is just mildly offensive to newbies. As for the inconsistencies, it's not just that they're weird it's that they're so emphatically enforced. It seems what OSM is great at is being a large experiment in anarchy. In its current form it's not fit to be released to the general public. Starting again with the db interface could quite possibly be the best way forward. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Long Tail ( was Removal of amenity from OSM tagging)
Am 19.05.2015 um 01:47 schrieb Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com: How about if first edits caused some sort of flag that experienced users see, and can welcome and thank the new user for registering and contributing. This is possible now, but not really part of the standard tool set and definitely not part of the culture. Around here I know some people doing it, myself included. I'm using an rss feed generated by Pascal Neis' new mapper service, together with IFTTT (to get an email automatically), feedback is always positive (if any). Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Long Tail ( was Removal of amenity from OSM tagging)
On 19/05/2015, Simon Poole si...@poole.ch wrote: On 19. Mai 2015 03:18:14 MESZ, johnw jo...@mac.com wrote: there’s no preset “I want to add a business” or “I want to add a park” tutorials that walk through the basics and hold your hand, bring up options and ask you natural language questions to help you learn how to tag things. a person who just wants to add a node tag can have very little asked of them, and the node placed in the correct spot. another mapper can flesh it out later. I've many times suggested that if we really want to exploit the long tail we need wizards not simple editors (I'm not sure that the later actually exists). We shoudn't kid ourselves though, we are unlikely to squezze a higher conversion rate to reasonably active mappers out of our audience that way, just a longer long tail. Any way we do it we are asking for people to spend more/a significant amount of time contributing and that will only happen if somebody is actually interested in the subject matter. http://onosm.org/ is IMHO not a bad answer to that. Maybe it could get integrated on osm.org, alongside a collection of other special-purpose wizards for various usecases. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Long Tail ( was Removal of amenity from OSM tagging)
On 19/05/2015 11:50, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: Am 19.05.2015 um 01:47 schrieb Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com: How about if first edits caused some sort of flag that experienced users see, and can welcome and thank the new user for registering and contributing. This is possible now, but not really part of the standard tool set and definitely not part of the culture. Around here I know some people doing it, myself included. I'm using an rss feed generated by Pascal Neis' new mapper service, together with IFTTT (to get an email automatically), feedback is always positive (if any). The Polish and Italian communities do or did send automatic messages to all new mappers in their area (or actually, 75% of them, to see what effect sending vs not sending had). I did some analysis on the retention of those mappers and couldn't find any kind of correlation: https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/welcomewg/2013-March/22.html Whether there's a correlation against quality of edits wasn't looked at (and would need a definition of quality of course). Ages ago I wrote this up: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:SomeoneElse/new_mapper_messages That's still more or less what I do locally although I tend to use changeset discussions now (give them chance to fix their own errors first unless they're causing serious damage, then offer to help). In the UK there are probably a dozen or so people looking after new mappers in their own different areas. From looking at Pascal Neis' site: http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussions#2/36.0/-10.5 it appears that it's fairly common in other areas of the world too. Also, it's worth mentioning that despite people sometimes describing OSM as unfriendly the vast majority of changeset discussion comments, especially to new users, are very friendly and happy to help. Cheers, Andy ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Long Tail ( was Removal of amenity from OSM tagging)
This talk by Richard Fairhurst suggests that 5% of mappers do 95% of work. So it's more important to find those few dedicated mappers and make their life easier, than to cater to the 95%. http://vimeopro.com/openstreetmapus/state-of-the-map-us-2013/video/68097488 Janko ned, 17. svi 2015. 07:43 Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com je napisao: On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 6:54 PM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us wrote: I did wonder about the statement ... about 500 users in the core group of the OSM are highly networked in terms of collaboration. I wonder about that too. Someone compiled a list of the most active users on OSM lately and published it as a diary entry. Among them were 2 Belgians, that as far as I know, never seek contact with the rest of the community. One of them even said that in his mapper of the month interview. Of course they are networked when the other mappers build upon their work, but that is not what I call collaboration. regards m ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Long Tail ( was Removal of amenity from OSM tagging)
On 18 May 2015 at 18:24, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us wrote: On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 9:13 AM, Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com wrote: This talk by Richard Fairhurst suggests that 5% of mappers do 95% of work. So it's more important to find those few dedicated mappers and make their life easier, than to cater to the 95%. I find the proposition that we find ways to engage the 95% more compelling. The 5% have already figured out the system. In the last week,11-May to 17-May, OSM increased the number of users [1] by 10,700. Think of the results if each of those new users were to add just one edit a week. You might ask, so what is keeping people from editing? We could speculate, but without asking I don't think we will ever know. So why not ask? The problems is right now we have no easy way to contact new users to ask them. We have a mindset that OSM should not spam the users. I think it is time to change that mindset. I propose that we allow for limited contact with new users. Offer an optional new users survey when they join, and send followups at 1 week and 1 month to remind them to make a contribution. Of course we should offer an opt out after the first email. Clifford I disagree with this approach as it's targeted. Can we moderately safely assume new users edit with iD ? Can we not use that interface to offer a 'feedback' link available to all ? Even if it simply points to a dedicated wiki page for different feedback options connected with iD, the rendered map and even the wiki content etc. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Long Tail ( was Removal of amenity from OSM tagging)
On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 5:28 PM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us wrote: I invite each user to join our Meetup Group and invite them to contact me if they have any questions. The response rate is low. A survey could help us identify why they joined, how they want to use OSM and what special interests they have any their desired way of contributing. Based on my experience running other sites, a huge fraction of the new users are bots. Yes, bots that respond to email. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Long Tail ( was Removal of amenity from OSM tagging)
On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 1:24 PM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us wrote: On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 9:13 AM, Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com wrote: This talk by Richard Fairhurst suggests that 5% of mappers do 95% of work. So it's more important to find those few dedicated mappers and make their life easier, than to cater to the 95%. I find the proposition that we find ways to engage the 95% more compelling. The 5% have already figured out the system. Figuring out the system is not the entirety of the issue. This was the crux of a talk I proposed for a SOTM US a few years ago that was rejected- how we can more use our limited resources to get a better result in the map by focusing on (or growing) the top mappers, rather than on one off casual mappers. Sadly the politics of this view was just too radical for the talk to be accepted (as I was told later). - Serge ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Long Tail ( was Removal of amenity from OSM tagging)
On May 19, 2015, at 2:24 AM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us wrote: You might ask, so what is keeping people from editing? We don’t need to speculate. It’s easy to understand what is holding people back. It’s the same thing that hold people back from replacing the brakes on their car - there is a lot of knowlege and technique needed to do even a simple car repair job correctly - and when presented with that reality, people walk away from the job and have a “pro” do it. There is no slow process to being exposed to the OSM data editing process, and that means digesting the entire tagging structure in a very short period. When people realize this, they walk. As far as I can tell, the differences between novices like me and more power users is a) using JSOM or similar, and b) using relations. that is an insanely high bar to jump over. Video games walk you through the control scheme, interaction model, and basic weapons when you first start. they don’t give you everything all at once in the middle of a boss fight and expect you to learn and enjoy it. But that is what is expected in OSM - even with how good iD looks/works. you can pick up “Street Fighter” and mash buttons and the characters move. Professionals know all the esoteric combos to make the fighters do advanced and amazing things, but that complexity is not presented to the beginning user. If you load up iD to add a tag for your business (and, lets say, the building itself) - you need to know Amenity= building= shop= opening_hours, landuse= how to tag driveways, parking, street numbers, and a whole lot that most users have trouble digesting - to say noting if the existing map looks like it does in Tokyo or london, or nothing at all in less mapped areas - all the existing complexity (or complete lack of anything) is very daunting. I think that all of that information is useful and necessary, but there is little way to have the mapper tag those things without understanding all the rationales and nuances of all those tags. there’s no preset “I want to add a business” or “I want to add a park” tutorials that walk through the basics and hold your hand, bring up options and ask you natural language questions to help you learn how to tag things. a person who just wants to add a node tag can have very little asked of them, and the node placed in the correct spot. another mapper can flesh it out later. Its like learning brain surgery by having a brain presented to you your first day of kindergarten - Only a small percent of the people will naturally be interested enough (or understand enough) to be able to interact with something so complicated when it's presented to them. And this is without all the weird inconsistencies, omissions, and probably unnatural language used in the tagging scheme - which goes on top of all of that. Javbw___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Long Tail ( was Removal of amenity from OSM tagging)
On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 10:24 AM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us wrote: In the last week,11-May to 17-May, OSM increased the number of users [1] by 10,700. Think of the results if each of those new users were to add just one edit a week. You might ask, so what is keeping people from editing? We could speculate, but without asking I don't think we will ever know. So why not ask? The problems is right now we have no easy way to contact new users to ask them. We have a mindset that OSM should not spam the users. I think it is time to change that mindset. I propose that we allow for limited contact with new users. Offer an optional new users survey when they join, and send followups at 1 week and 1 month to remind them to make a contribution. Of course we should offer an opt out after the first email. Let's use human power, not spam power. How about if first edits caused some sort of flag that experienced users see, and can welcome and thank the new user for registering and contributing. This is possible now, but not really part of the standard tool set and definitely not part of the culture. --- Beyond that: OSM has huge growth areas in issue mapping. The most recent that came up is pet rest areas. There must be people with dogs that need these on a regular basis, who could start mapping those features, and maybe move on to classic OSM editing. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Long Tail ( was Removal of amenity from OSM tagging)
On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 4:47 PM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: Let's use human power, not spam power. How about if first edits caused some sort of flag that experienced users see, and can welcome and thank the new user for registering and contributing. This is possible now, but not really part of the standard tool set and definitely not part of the culture. I try to watch an area from the Northern Western Washington border with BC down to the southern part of greater Seattle. I send a message to all new users captured by the IRC bot. I'm sure I miss a bunch as I scan the IRC logs for new users. I invite each user to join our Meetup Group and invite them to contact me if they have any questions. The response rate is low. A survey could help us identify why they joined, how they want to use OSM and what special interests they have any their desired way of contributing. Any automated email system must certainly have a means for the user to opt out. I don't think sending two or three automated emails is that obtrusive. I think that they already get one automated email, the confirmation that they successfully signed up. We could include a survey link in that message. Not a long survey, just a few questions. Atomizing the data will insure that their answers are anonymous. Clifford -- @osm_seattle osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Long Tail ( was Removal of amenity from OSM tagging)
On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 4:46 AM, Daniel Koć daniel@koć.pl wrote: My long tail intuition are now supported by a scientific study called Characterizing the Heterogeneity of the OpenStreetMap Data and Community, and we know even how much advanced users are there! The abstract says: All three aspects (users, elements, and contributions) demonstrate striking power laws or heavy-tailed distributions. The heavy-tailed distributions imply that there are far more small elements than large ones, far more inactive users than active ones, and far more lightly edited elements than heavy-edited ones. Furthermore, about 500 users in the core group of the OSM are highly networked in terms of collaboration. [ http://www.mdpi.com/2220-9964/4/2/535 ] So, we should really take care of casual mappers! I confess to not fully understanding all the statistics in the article, but it is clear that casual mappers make significant contributions to OSM. I did wonder about the statement ... about 500 users in the core group of the OSM are highly networked in terms of collaboration. Really, collaboration? Someone just made a mass edit in an area I watch with a user name I didn't recognize. Nothing wrong with the edit, I'm just pointing out that we don't always collaborate. Imports are a good example of when we do and a perfect example of when we don't. Clifford -- @osm_seattle osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Long Tail ( was Removal of amenity from OSM tagging)
On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 6:54 PM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us wrote: I did wonder about the statement ... about 500 users in the core group of the OSM are highly networked in terms of collaboration. I wonder about that too. Someone compiled a list of the most active users on OSM lately and published it as a diary entry. Among them were 2 Belgians, that as far as I know, never seek contact with the rest of the community. One of them even said that in his mapper of the month interview. Of course they are networked when the other mappers build upon their work, but that is not what I call collaboration. regards m ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
