Re: [Tagging] Loomio evaluation
Title: Re: [Tagging] Loomio evaluation Hi, So, the conclusion of my Loomio test is that it does not let the user choose which Google account it uses during account creation, it uses the connected account and, despite the user cancels the Login operation, Loomio continues to try to use the unwanted account. I tried disconnecting the account and removing the cookies in vain. I was asked to open a Loomio ticket and, although I'm not here to debug Loomio, I'm helpful and I did. But no one popped up, ad so, Loomio must be seen as unsupported software. I could not make actual tests. On 2015-03-23 19:07, Kotya Karapetyan wrote : Now I am missing the "like" link :) We'll definitely need to find a smart and soft way to attract people to a different platform. However, though I agree that email is not the best tool, we need a very good alternative rather than a marginally better option first. You should say what you mean when you speak of "e-mail" (not being the best tool). If you mean that a plain mail server or list server is insufficient, one can agree. But if you say that the user shouldn't use e-mail, that is wrong. Users complain about the difficulties of composing wiki text or similar because it's not wysiwyg and because a Web interface is not adequate. E-mail programs are good, basic HTML editors and the best idea is to use that same HTML for both forum articles and wiki pages. The said articles are easily converted to wiki pages, something that should be more often in certain countries. Personally, I archive the messages I receive in an MAP server that I can access with my e-mail program. If you add list management functions to that, the more the better, you make an excellent Loomio. The list servers we use have 2 big shortcomings: 1) limiting message size, 2) considering messages as text with HTML attachment. They should use a readonly IMAP server. Loomio test page To answer the Ralph’s question in the mailing list, this thread is an attempt to embed an image: You seem to consider including an image as an achievement. There is more than that to support: links, lists, tables, titles etc... I have copied and pasted to this message the page of the test test you made on Loomio. Below that, I made a fancier image with the text wrapping to the left, just for show. Belox that, I copied from the main map the tags of Elisabeth Tower, the one supporting Big Ben. It contains titles, links, a table and a list. André. OSM tagging Test images To answer the Ralph’s question in the mailing list, this thread is an attempt to embed an image: Started 1 hour ago by Kotya Karapetyan Edited Current decision Discussion Kotya Karapetyan Image in a comment. Quisque at orci accumsan, aliquam massa eget, mattis nisi. Fusce commodo venenatis molestie. Proin sagittis enim
Re: [Tagging] Loomio evaluation
Hi Andre, I am not sure what point you are trying to make. You should say what you mean when you speak of e-mail (not being the best tool). If you mean that a plain mail server or list server is insufficient, one can agree. But if you say that the user shouldn't use e-mail, that is wrong. 1) I didn't say that people shouldn't *use* email. I only think that a mailing list is not the best tool for decision preparation discussions. Why? Because there is absolutely no structure implied or enforced. If you have a meeting without an agenda, without *any* rules, without a chairman, without time limits, with participants joining in the middle of a discussion and leaving before it's over—what's the probability of having a successful meeting and getting some decisions prepared? You seem to consider including an image as an achievement. 2) I don't consider embedding an image an achievement. Loomio has a pretty primitive interface, e.g. no buttons (like at StackExchange) to do formatting. Therefore there was a valid question asked whether it's possible to embed images. Note that it was not about being WYSIWG or able to to do rich text. For discussions, we really need to be able to share photos and screenshots. I have checked and posted that it was possible, both in the topic and in individual comments. I just answered the question. There is more than that to support: links, lists, tables, titles etc... 3) I am not sure you really need it, but Loomio supports further formatting that you mention. However I think that your position is more interesting for this discussion than just arguing about the functionality and usability of email and whatever-other-tool. You have a rather strong opinion and I think, whatever the functionality, you will present a strong opposition to switching. Therefore I would be interested in knowing *if* it is possible to make you *want* to switch. Not just to Loomio but to any other tool. Is there such a thing at all? Is there something you don't like about emails as the decision preparation tool? Cheers, Kotya On Thu, Mar 26, 2015 at 11:11 AM, André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, So, the conclusion of my Loomio test is that it does not let the user choose which Google account it uses during account creation, it uses the connected account and, despite the user cancels the Login operation, Loomio continues to try to use the unwanted account. I tried disconnecting the account and removing the cookies in vain. I was asked to open a Loomio ticket and, although I'm not here to debug Loomio, I'm helpful and I did. But no one popped up, ad so, Loomio must be seen as unsupported software. I could not make actual tests. On 2015-03-23 19:07, Kotya Karapetyan wrote : Now I am missing the like link :) We'll definitely need to find a smart and soft way to attract people to a different platform. However, though I agree that email is not the best tool, we need a very good alternative rather than a marginally better option first. You should say what you mean when you speak of e-mail (not being the best tool). If you mean that a plain mail server or list server is insufficient, one can agree. But if you say that the user shouldn't use e-mail, that is wrong. Users complain about the difficulties of composing wiki text or similar because it's not wysiwyg and because a Web interface is not adequate. E-mail programs are good, basic HTML editors and the best idea is to use that same HTML for both forum articles and wiki pages. The said articles are easily converted to wiki pages, something that should be more often in certain countries. Personally, I archive the messages I receive in an MAP server that I can access with my e-mail program. If you add list management functions to that, the more the better, you make an excellent Loomio. The list servers we use have 2 big shortcomings: 1) limiting message size, 2) considering messages as text with HTML attachment. They should use a readonly IMAP server. Loomio test page https://www.loomio.org/d/1E3YAaz0/test-images To answer the Ralph’s question in the mailing list, this thread is an attempt to embed an image: You seem to consider including an image as an achievement. There is more than that to support: links, lists, tables, titles etc... I have copied and pasted to this message the page of the test test you made on Loomio. Below that, I made a fancier image with the text wrapping to the left, just for show. Belox that, I copied from the main map the tags of Elisabeth Tower, the one supporting Big Ben. It contains titles, links, a table and a list. André. OSM tagging https://www.loomio.org/g/tknueHrw/osm-tagging Test images To answer the Ralph’s question in the mailing list, this thread is an attempt to embed an image: Started 1 hour ago by Kotya Karapetyan https://www.loomio.org/u/2r5uoFXS/kotya-karapetyan Edited
Re: [Tagging] Loomio evaluation
Well, I guess I am also out of this. Needs me to log in to make a comment but appears I have done something wrong because it just does not work for me. I do not have a Google account and my Virgin email is unacceptable. So I cannot comment. Question:... Can you include pictures or diagrams as visual arguments to support your reasoning? Cheers Ralph On 20 March 2015 at 22:38, Kotya Karapetyan kotya.li...@gmail.com wrote: Dear all, In an attempt to find a better tool for our proposal discussions, Loomio has been mentioned. At the very first glance it looks like a feasible alternative to the mailing list and the forum. Let's take a look together: https://www.loomio.org/g/tknueHrw/osm-tagging And let me know if you want to check the coordinator role. Cheers, Kotya ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Loomio evaluation
I don't know if I need to say this, but Ralph, Andre, please could you send report your problems to the loomio people? You do that here: https://github.com/loomio/loomio/issues Dan 2015-03-23 16:42 GMT+00:00 AYTOUN RALPH ralph.ayt...@ntlworld.com: Well, I guess I am also out of this. Needs me to log in to make a comment but appears I have done something wrong because it just does not work for me. I do not have a Google account and my Virgin email is unacceptable. So I cannot comment. Question:... Can you include pictures or diagrams as visual arguments to support your reasoning? Cheers Ralph On 20 March 2015 at 22:38, Kotya Karapetyan kotya.li...@gmail.com wrote: Dear all, In an attempt to find a better tool for our proposal discussions, Loomio has been mentioned. At the very first glance it looks like a feasible alternative to the mailing list and the forum. Let's take a look together: https://www.loomio.org/g/tknueHrw/osm-tagging And let me know if you want to check the coordinator role. Cheers, Kotya ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Loomio evaluation
OSM is a very large community with much accumulated knowledge and skill - it's bound to be quite conservative, and for good reason. The challenge is to allow experimental innovations to breathe without disrupting the community. We'll never be able to organise a vote (ha!) to switch to loomio all at once. But if we decide Loomio is worth trying, maybe we can experimentally agree to use it to negotiate some small tagging subproject, in a particular tag namespace. (indoor tagging might be a good example?) Then inch by inch we see what works. Dan 2015-03-23 0:18 GMT+00:00 Dave Swarthout daveswarth...@gmail.com: I'll second the notion that we need something better than the current system. It is an anachronism! My first look at Loomio was good, I was impressed, but my immediate thought was, it'll never get accepted into OSM On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 5:57 AM, Dan S danstowell+...@gmail.com wrote: It's interesting. I hadn't realised it's open-source too, so osm could run its own version of it if we wanted to. Dan 2015-03-20 22:38 GMT+00:00 Kotya Karapetyan kotya.li...@gmail.com: Dear all, In an attempt to find a better tool for our proposal discussions, Loomio has been mentioned. At the very first glance it looks like a feasible alternative to the mailing list and the forum. Let's take a look together: https://www.loomio.org/g/tknueHrw/osm-tagging And let me know if you want to check the coordinator role. Cheers, Kotya ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Dave Swarthout Homer, Alaska Chiang Mai, Thailand Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Loomio evaluation
On 2015-03-23 01:18, Dave Swarthout wrote : I'll second the notion that we need something better than the current system. It is an anachronism! My first look at Loomio was good, I was impressed, but my immediate thought was, it'll never get accepted into OSM On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 5:57 AM, Dan S danstowell+...@gmail.com mailto:danstowell+...@gmail.com wrote: It's interesting. I hadn't realised it's open-source too, so osm could run its own version of it if we wanted to. Dan 2015-03-20 22:38 GMT+00:00 Kotya Karapetyan kotya.li...@gmail.com mailto:kotya.li...@gmail.com: Dear all, In an attempt to find a better tool for our proposal discussions, Loomio has been mentioned. At the very first glance it looks like a feasible alternative to the mailing list and the forum. Let's take a look together: https://www.loomio.org/g/tknueHrw/osm-tagging And let me know if you want to check the coordinator role. Cheers, Kotya Hi, I clicked Login via Google, Google didn't let me choose which e-mail address to use, it blindly used the wrong one, I obviously canceled permission to use it and Loomio reported failure for a cryptic reason. Back to Loomio for a new start, I'm stuck in the following welcome dialog when trying to repeat the same. It looks like Loomio made a subscription despite it failed and wants me to do an impossible login. According to Help, no subscription is needed :-D How can I cancel that bogus subscription and go on? (I have an idea of trickery, but I prefer the official method). Short conclusion: it seems I won the contest by raising a bug on just a single first click ;-) Link up your account Log in to your Loomio account to link it up with Google. or Remember me Forgot your password? https://www.loomio.org/users/password/new Don't have an account? Create one now https://www.loomio.org/users/sign_up Cheers André. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Loomio evaluation
On Mon, 2015-03-23 at 19:07 +0100, Kotya Karapetyan wrote: We'll definitely need to find a smart and soft way to attract people to a different platform. I think its better than the email list. For a number of reasons. And while the list also wins a couple of points, overall, Loomio is better. But I don't think its better by enough to drag everyone over there to use it. To make people abandon something they are comfortable with, it needs to be heaps better and current system needs to have some major problem. And I don't think that is the case. I would be willing to move but not so much I'd pressure others to go there as well. David However, though I agree that email is not the best tool, we need a very good alternative rather than a marginally better option first. On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 9:40 AM, Dan S danstowell+...@gmail.com wrote: OSM is a very large community with much accumulated knowledge and skill - it's bound to be quite conservative, and for good reason. The challenge is to allow experimental innovations to breathe without disrupting the community. We'll never be able to organise a vote (ha!) to switch to loomio all at once. But if we decide Loomio is worth trying, maybe we can experimentally agree to use it to negotiate some small tagging subproject, in a particular tag namespace. (indoor tagging might be a good example?) Then inch by inch we see what works. Dan 2015-03-23 0:18 GMT+00:00 Dave Swarthout daveswarth...@gmail.com: I'll second the notion that we need something better than the current system. It is an anachronism! My first look at Loomio was good, I was impressed, but my immediate thought was, it'll never get accepted into OSM On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 5:57 AM, Dan S danstowell +o...@gmail.com wrote: It's interesting. I hadn't realised it's open-source too, so osm could run its own version of it if we wanted to. Dan 2015-03-20 22:38 GMT+00:00 Kotya Karapetyan kotya.li...@gmail.com: Dear all, In an attempt to find a better tool for our proposal discussions, Loomio has been mentioned. At the very first glance it looks like a feasible alternative to the mailing list and the forum. Let's take a look together: https://www.loomio.org/g/tknueHrw/osm-tagging And let me know if you want to check the coordinator role. Cheers, Kotya ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Dave Swarthout Homer, Alaska Chiang Mai, Thailand Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Loomio evaluation
Question:... Can you include pictures or diagrams as visual arguments to support your reasoning? Doesn't seems to be possible. I was too quick. It *is* possible. Here is an example. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Loomio evaluation
Now I am missing the like link :) We'll definitely need to find a smart and soft way to attract people to a different platform. However, though I agree that email is not the best tool, we need a very good alternative rather than a marginally better option first. On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 9:40 AM, Dan S danstowell+...@gmail.com wrote: OSM is a very large community with much accumulated knowledge and skill - it's bound to be quite conservative, and for good reason. The challenge is to allow experimental innovations to breathe without disrupting the community. We'll never be able to organise a vote (ha!) to switch to loomio all at once. But if we decide Loomio is worth trying, maybe we can experimentally agree to use it to negotiate some small tagging subproject, in a particular tag namespace. (indoor tagging might be a good example?) Then inch by inch we see what works. Dan 2015-03-23 0:18 GMT+00:00 Dave Swarthout daveswarth...@gmail.com: I'll second the notion that we need something better than the current system. It is an anachronism! My first look at Loomio was good, I was impressed, but my immediate thought was, it'll never get accepted into OSM On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 5:57 AM, Dan S danstowell+...@gmail.com wrote: It's interesting. I hadn't realised it's open-source too, so osm could run its own version of it if we wanted to. Dan 2015-03-20 22:38 GMT+00:00 Kotya Karapetyan kotya.li...@gmail.com: Dear all, In an attempt to find a better tool for our proposal discussions, Loomio has been mentioned. At the very first glance it looks like a feasible alternative to the mailing list and the forum. Let's take a look together: https://www.loomio.org/g/tknueHrw/osm-tagging And let me know if you want to check the coordinator role. Cheers, Kotya ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Dave Swarthout Homer, Alaska Chiang Mai, Thailand Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Loomio evaluation
Thanks Kotya, Being able to include pictures, etc, is at least is a great positive. I still need to sort out what has happened to stop me from signing up for the group. If this is going to be a common problem then it may discourage some from getting involved. Or we need to give more accurate signing up or log in instructions for future. Not everyone worldwide has a Google account and gmail. Will get back to you when I have some idea what went wrong. On 23 March 2015 at 18:15, Kotya Karapetyan kotya.li...@gmail.com wrote: I was *too* quick. Here is an example: https://www.loomio.org/d/1E3YAaz0/test-images ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Loomio evaluation
Yes they can. Probably best to try it out - sorry that you're stuck outside of it at the moment! 2015-03-23 18:36 GMT+00:00 AYTOUN RALPH ralph.ayt...@ntlworld.com: The next question is The results of the graph are based on the response of the person when they post their comment. This affects the result of the pie chart because it starts to clock up how people feel before all the comments for and against have been posted. Those later arguments could affect the earlier decisions and change people's minds. Can they retract their earlier position and change or reverse their input to the pie graph? On 20 March 2015 at 22:38, Kotya Karapetyan kotya.li...@gmail.com wrote: Dear all, In an attempt to find a better tool for our proposal discussions, Loomio has been mentioned. At the very first glance it looks like a feasible alternative to the mailing list and the forum. Let's take a look together: https://www.loomio.org/g/tknueHrw/osm-tagging And let me know if you want to check the coordinator role. Cheers, Kotya ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Loomio evaluation
The next question is The results of the graph are based on the response of the person when they post their comment. This affects the result of the pie chart because it starts to clock up how people feel before all the comments for and against have been posted. Those later arguments could affect the earlier decisions and change people's minds. Can they retract their earlier position and change or reverse their input to the pie graph? On 20 March 2015 at 22:38, Kotya Karapetyan kotya.li...@gmail.com wrote: Dear all, In an attempt to find a better tool for our proposal discussions, Loomio has been mentioned. At the very first glance it looks like a feasible alternative to the mailing list and the forum. Let's take a look together: https://www.loomio.org/g/tknueHrw/osm-tagging And let me know if you want to check the coordinator role. Cheers, Kotya ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Loomio evaluation
On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 5:42 PM, AYTOUN RALPH ralph.ayt...@ntlworld.com wrote: Well, I guess I am also out of this. Needs me to log in to make a comment but appears I have done something wrong because it just does not work for me. I do not have a Google account and my Virgin email is unacceptable. So I cannot comment. That's a shame. What do you mean by unacceptable? It complains about it? Question:... Can you include pictures or diagrams as visual arguments to support your reasoning? Doesn't seems to be possible. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Loomio evaluation
I was *too* quick. Here is an example: https://www.loomio.org/d/1E3YAaz0/test-images ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Loomio evaluation
I'll second the notion that we need something better than the current system. It is an anachronism! My first look at Loomio was good, I was impressed, but my immediate thought was, it'll never get accepted into OSM On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 5:57 AM, Dan S danstowell+...@gmail.com wrote: It's interesting. I hadn't realised it's open-source too, so osm could run its own version of it if we wanted to. Dan 2015-03-20 22:38 GMT+00:00 Kotya Karapetyan kotya.li...@gmail.com: Dear all, In an attempt to find a better tool for our proposal discussions, Loomio has been mentioned. At the very first glance it looks like a feasible alternative to the mailing list and the forum. Let's take a look together: https://www.loomio.org/g/tknueHrw/osm-tagging And let me know if you want to check the coordinator role. Cheers, Kotya ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Dave Swarthout Homer, Alaska Chiang Mai, Thailand Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Loomio evaluation
It's interesting. I hadn't realised it's open-source too, so osm could run its own version of it if we wanted to. Dan 2015-03-20 22:38 GMT+00:00 Kotya Karapetyan kotya.li...@gmail.com: Dear all, In an attempt to find a better tool for our proposal discussions, Loomio has been mentioned. At the very first glance it looks like a feasible alternative to the mailing list and the forum. Let's take a look together: https://www.loomio.org/g/tknueHrw/osm-tagging And let me know if you want to check the coordinator role. Cheers, Kotya ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Loomio evaluation
Dear all, In an attempt to find a better tool for our proposal discussions, Loomio has been mentioned. At the very first glance it looks like a feasible alternative to the mailing list and the forum. Let's take a look together: https://www.loomio.org/g/tknueHrw/osm-tagging And let me know if you want to check the coordinator role. Cheers, Kotya ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
