Re: [Tagging] Proposal to Change Road Classification, Road Surface, Road Condition, and Add Number of Lanes

[David Bannon]

Wow Alberto, you have put a lot of thought into this. I agree its needed 
and think the model would serve us a lot better than the way its done 
now. But I see a couple of problems, first, we have a huge data set 
using the existing model. Very hard to change that. Secondly, I suspect 
not all contributers to OSM are familiar with the sort of roads that 
have prompted your proposal. So, wide spread support may be a bit hard 
to find.


But I'd be the last to suggest you give up something just because its 
impossible !


So, lets pick it over.

Firstly, maybe your categories might need to be a bit finer grained.  
For example, the jump, in Rural, 3 Tertiary and 4 Unclassified is too 
big. I live on a rural road, its not a connecting road and it is owned 
and maintained (occasionally) by the Municipality.  So its definitely a 
public access road but not one a routing engine should consider (except 
start and end stages of course). Such roads are very common.


I am not sure I like the classification you use for C Road Condition. It 
seems a bit too focused on maintenance models rather than providing an 
indication of how a traveler might find it. I suggest what a map (or 
whatever) user wants to know is "should I use this road ?". And that, of 
course, is dependent on vehicle, maybe affected by weather, maintenance 
cycles and so on.


Alberto, I'd like to see this model refined, lets make out that we are 
starting fresh, get it right and then look to see if some of the result 
can be incorporated into the current model, or even a long term transition ?


David

On 06/03/16 01:25, Alberto wrote:


Dear OSM staff, contributors, and users:

I have read the definitions, concepts and description that OSM uses to 
characterize (tag) roads and noticed that OSM does not establish the 
difference between inter-urban (rural) roads and urban roads 
(comprising mostly avenues and streets). Therefore, I propose to 
*replace the existing OSM road classification with a "functional 
classification"* that would allow OSM *"to better model and better 
visualize"* the actual road network. I have noticed that you have been 
challenged to adapt to the differences found in each country. If the 
following classification is adopted, it will be a "*universal 
standard*" and you will not need to adopt different criteria for 
developed or developing countries, like the OSM example for East Africa.


It would be useful to define a road class (paved/unpaved) and a road 
surface type (concrete, asphalt, surface treatment, gravel, earth). I 
also propose to reduce the options for road condition to only five 
categories defined by the need for maintenance or rehabilitation. I 
can provide a technical definition using the International Roughness 
Index (IRI) for paved and unpaved roads.



I am fully aware that these changes present a major challenge for the 
existing, coding, renderer, editors, etc. However, I am confident that 
introducing these changes (and adding the number of lanes) will not 
only simplify the mapping tasks, but would substantially improve the 
quality of the OMS products, particularly given the fact that many 
other layers are highly dependent on the quality of the road network.



I am a Civil Engineer (MS Stanford) with training on urban planning 
(MIT) with more than 20 years of experience working with international 
organizations like the World Bank and the African Development Bank on 
roads and highways in more than 50 countries, but mostly in 
Sub-Saharan Africa, South America, South Asia, East Asia and the 
Pacific, and Eastern Europe.


Alberto Nogales

202-257-8726


*A. FUNCTIONAL ROAD CLASSIFICATION for "Motor Vehicles":*

*
*

*Rural (Inter-Urban) Roads - Located outside of urban areas*

*Classified Road Network. *Generally falls under the responsibility of 
the National, Provincial (State), Municipal/Local Government to build, 
operate and maintain.


*1.* *Primary* Roads - National, Main, Trunk Roads outside of
urban areas that connect the main population and economic centers
of the country. Typically under the responsibility of the National
Government and with high levels of traffic.

*2.* *Secondary* Roads - Regional, State, Provincial Roads are the
main feeder routes into, and provide the main links between
primary roads. Typically under the responsibility of the
Provincial Government and with medium levels of traffic.

*3.* *Tertiary* Roads - Municipal, Local, Rural Roads that connect
the smaller towns to intermediate cities. Typically under the
responsibility of the Local Governments and with low levels of
traffic.

*Unclassified Road Network.*

*4. Unclassified* Roads. Mostly private roads or of unknown
responsibility to build and operate. Typically maintained by local
communities or by private mining, forestry, or agricultural
enterprises.

*Urban Network- Located within the boundaries of urban areas*

*1/2/3.* *Highway.* 

Re: [Tagging] Proposal to Change Road Classification, Road Surface, Road Condition, and Add Number of Lanes

[Dominic Coletti]

I truly find this proposal to be logical and well thought out. However, I
think that there may be better ways to pursue these goals other than
replacing the millions of ways on OSM tagged with the current schema. That
said, I think there is room to add new tags that serves a similar purpose
to what you describe.

Sincerely,
Dominic

On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 7:39 PM Dave Swarthout 
wrote:

> You obviously did a lot of work in preparing your proposal and for that I
> thank you Alberto. However, I'm afraid I have to agree with Tom. To
> redefine the current highway tagging structure to the extent you suggest
> would be next to impossible given the free-thinking nature of many mappers,
> and any potential gains resulting from those changes would be minor
> compared to the amount of effort they would require to implement.
>
> Some of the ideas you present will come up against stiff opposition as
> well. For example, separating urban and rural roads and combining dual
> carriageways are not ones I could support.
>
> Regards,
> Dave
>
> On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 12:32 AM, Dominic Coletti  > wrote:
>
>> In the UK you can add a fourth one to that list - where Royal Mail think
>> you are, for the purposes of addressing post. Doesn't correspond to any of
>> the first three options.
>>
>> This is similar in some pats of the US. USPS addresses are completely
>> different from the other three.
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 10:43 AM Colin Smale 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In the UK you can add a fourth one to that list - where Royal Mail think
>>> you are, for the purposes of addressing post. Doesn't correspond to any of
>>> the first three options.
>>>
>>> On 2016-03-06 16:21, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> sent from a phone
>>>
>>> Am 06.03.2016 um 11:28 schrieb moltonel :
>>>
>>> City limits rarely match the limits of urban areas. On one extreme there
>>> are multi-city agglomerations, on the other there are rural areas that are
>>> inside cities, for example in France where there is no "no-city's land",
>>> even the remotest countryside is part of a 'municipalité'.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Actually there's 3 different kind of settlement: one for the law on
>>> traffic (sign city limit), one political (the place and the area around
>>> that it governs, municipalité) and the socio-geographical place, where
>>> someone would say he's inside this place.
>>>
>>> The first one is the one that the OP has asked about I believe.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Martin
>>> ___
>>> Tagging mailing list
>>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Tagging mailing list
>>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>>
>> --
>>
>> *C/CMSgt Dominic Coletti, CAP*
>> Whiskey Flight Sergeant, Raleigh-Wake Composite Squadron
>> (H) 919-463-9554
>> U.S. Air Force Auxiliary
>> GoCivilAirPatrol.com 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Dave Swarthout
> Homer, Alaska
> Chiang Mai, Thailand
> Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
-- 

*C/CMSgt Dominic Coletti, CAP*
Whiskey Flight Sergeant, Raleigh-Wake Composite Squadron
(H) 919-463-9554
U.S. Air Force Auxiliary
GoCivilAirPatrol.com 




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Re: [Tagging] Proposal to Change Road Classification, Road Surface, Road Condition, and Add Number of Lanes

[Dave Swarthout]

You obviously did a lot of work in preparing your proposal and for that I
thank you Alberto. However, I'm afraid I have to agree with Tom. To
redefine the current highway tagging structure to the extent you suggest
would be next to impossible given the free-thinking nature of many mappers,
and any potential gains resulting from those changes would be minor
compared to the amount of effort they would require to implement.

Some of the ideas you present will come up against stiff opposition as
well. For example, separating urban and rural roads and combining dual
carriageways are not ones I could support.

Regards,
Dave

On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 12:32 AM, Dominic Coletti 
wrote:

> In the UK you can add a fourth one to that list - where Royal Mail think
> you are, for the purposes of addressing post. Doesn't correspond to any of
> the first three options.
>
> This is similar in some pats of the US. USPS addresses are completely
> different from the other three.
>
> On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 10:43 AM Colin Smale  wrote:
>
>> In the UK you can add a fourth one to that list - where Royal Mail think
>> you are, for the purposes of addressing post. Doesn't correspond to any of
>> the first three options.
>>
>> On 2016-03-06 16:21, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> sent from a phone
>>
>> Am 06.03.2016 um 11:28 schrieb moltonel :
>>
>> City limits rarely match the limits of urban areas. On one extreme there
>> are multi-city agglomerations, on the other there are rural areas that are
>> inside cities, for example in France where there is no "no-city's land",
>> even the remotest countryside is part of a 'municipalité'.
>>
>>
>>
>> Actually there's 3 different kind of settlement: one for the law on
>> traffic (sign city limit), one political (the place and the area around
>> that it governs, municipalité) and the socio-geographical place, where
>> someone would say he's inside this place.
>>
>> The first one is the one that the OP has asked about I believe.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Martin
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
> --
>
> *C/CMSgt Dominic Coletti, CAP*
> Whiskey Flight Sergeant, Raleigh-Wake Composite Squadron
> (H) 919-463-9554
> U.S. Air Force Auxiliary
> GoCivilAirPatrol.com 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>


-- 
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] Proposal to Change Road Classification, Road Surface, Road Condition, and Add Number of Lanes

[Dominic Coletti]

In the UK you can add a fourth one to that list - where Royal Mail think
you are, for the purposes of addressing post. Doesn't correspond to any of
the first three options.

This is similar in some pats of the US. USPS addresses are completely
different from the other three.

On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 10:43 AM Colin Smale  wrote:

> In the UK you can add a fourth one to that list - where Royal Mail think
> you are, for the purposes of addressing post. Doesn't correspond to any of
> the first three options.
>
> On 2016-03-06 16:21, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> Am 06.03.2016 um 11:28 schrieb moltonel :
>
> City limits rarely match the limits of urban areas. On one extreme there
> are multi-city agglomerations, on the other there are rural areas that are
> inside cities, for example in France where there is no "no-city's land",
> even the remotest countryside is part of a 'municipalité'.
>
>
>
> Actually there's 3 different kind of settlement: one for the law on
> traffic (sign city limit), one political (the place and the area around
> that it governs, municipalité) and the socio-geographical place, where
> someone would say he's inside this place.
>
> The first one is the one that the OP has asked about I believe.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
-- 

*C/CMSgt Dominic Coletti, CAP*
Whiskey Flight Sergeant, Raleigh-Wake Composite Squadron
(H) 919-463-9554
U.S. Air Force Auxiliary
GoCivilAirPatrol.com 




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Re: [Tagging] Proposal to Change Road Classification, Road Surface, Road Condition, and Add Number of Lanes

[Colin Smale]

In the UK you can add a fourth one to that list - where Royal Mail think
you are, for the purposes of addressing post. Doesn't correspond to any
of the first three options. 

On 2016-03-06 16:21, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

> sent from a phone
> 
>> Am 06.03.2016 um 11:28 schrieb moltonel :
>> 
>> City limits rarely match the limits of urban areas. On one extreme there are 
>> multi-city agglomerations, on the other there are rural areas that are 
>> inside cities, for example in France where there is no "no-city's land", 
>> even the remotest countryside is part of a 'municipalité'.
> 
> Actually there's 3 different kind of settlement: one for the law on traffic 
> (sign city limit), one political (the place and the area around that it 
> governs, municipalité) and the socio-geographical place, where someone would 
> say he's inside this place.
> 
> The first one is the one that the OP has asked about I believe.
> 
> Cheers,
> Martin 
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
 ___
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Re: [Tagging] Proposal to Change Road Classification, Road Surface, Road Condition, and Add Number of Lanes

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 06.03.2016 um 11:28 schrieb moltonel :
> 
> City limits rarely match the limits of urban areas. On one extreme there are 
> multi-city agglomerations, on the other there are rural areas that are inside 
> cities, for example in France where there is no "no-city's land", even the 
> remotest countryside is part of a 'municipalité'.


Actually there's 3 different kind of settlement: one for the law on traffic 
(sign city limit), one political (the place and the area around that it 
governs, municipalité) and the socio-geographical place, where someone would 
say he's inside this place.

The first one is the one that the OP has asked about I believe.

Cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Proposal to Change Road Classification, Road Surface, Road Condition, and Add Number of Lanes

[moltonel]

On 5 March 2016 21:13:48 GMT+00:00, Martin Koppenhoefer 
 wrote:
>> Am 05.03.2016 um 15:25 schrieb Alberto :
>> 
>> OSM does not establish the difference between inter-urban (rural)
>roads and urban roads (comprising mostly avenues and streets).
>
>
>there are tags in use that allow to make this distinction:
>source:maxspeed (if it's not signed ;-) ) and traffic_sign=city_limit

City limits rarely match the limits of urban areas. On one extreme there are 
multi-city agglomerations, on the other there are rural areas that are inside 
cities, for example in France where there is no "no-city's land", even the 
remotest countryside is part of a 'municipalité'.

That said, I dont see what would be gained in using completely separate highway 
classifications for urban/rural roads. The current scheme applies (as) well to 
both cases. It'd be silly to reclassify a road while it crosses a 'street 
village'. And I'm not looking forward to "where does the urban area start ?" 
debates.
-- 
Vincent Dp

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Re: [Tagging] Proposal to Change Road Classification, Road Surface, Road Condition, and Add Number of Lanes

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 05.03.2016 um 15:25 schrieb Alberto :
> 
> OSM does not establish the difference between inter-urban (rural) roads and 
> urban roads (comprising mostly avenues and streets).


there are tags in use that allow to make this distinction: source:maxspeed (if 
it's not signed ;-) ) and traffic_sign=city_limit


cheers,
Martin 
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[Tagging] Proposal to Change Road Classification, Road Surface, Road Condition, and Add Number of Lanes

[Alberto]

Dear OSM staff, contributors, and users:

I have read the definitions, concepts and description that OSM uses to 
characterize (tag) roads and noticed that OSM does not establish the difference 
between inter-urban (rural) roads and urban roads (comprising mostly avenues 
and streets). Therefore, I propose to replace the existing OSM road 
classification with a "functional classification" that would allow OSM "to 
better model and better visualize" the actual road network. I have noticed that 
you have been challenged to adapt to the differences found in each country. If 
the following classification is adopted, it will be a "universal standard" and 
you will not need to adopt different criteria for developed or developing 
countries, like the OSM example for East Africa.

It would be useful to define a road class (paved/unpaved) and a road surface 
type (concrete, asphalt, surface treatment, gravel, earth). I also propose to 
reduce the options for road condition to only five categories defined by the 
need for maintenance or rehabilitation. I can provide a technical definition 
using the International Roughness Index (IRI) for paved and unpaved roads.


I am fully aware that these changes present a major challenge for the existing, 
coding, renderer, editors, etc. However, I am confident that introducing these 
changes (and adding the number of lanes) will not only simplify the mapping 
tasks, but would substantially improve the quality of the OMS products, 
particularly given the fact that many other layers are highly dependent on the 
quality of the road network.


I am a Civil Engineer (MS Stanford) with training on urban planning (MIT) with 
more than 20 years of experience working with international organizations like 
the World Bank and the African Development Bank on roads and highways in more 
than 50 countries, but mostly in Sub-Saharan Africa, South America, South Asia, 
East Asia and the Pacific, and Eastern Europe.

Alberto Nogales

202-257-8726


A. FUNCTIONAL ROAD CLASSIFICATION for "Motor Vehicles":


Rural (Inter-Urban) Roads - Located outside of urban areas

Classified Road Network. Generally falls under the responsibility of the 
National, Provincial (State), Municipal/Local Government to build, operate and 
maintain.

1. Primary Roads - National, Main, Trunk Roads outside of urban areas that 
connect the main population and economic centers of the country. Typically 
under the responsibility of the National Government and with high levels of 
traffic.

2. Secondary Roads - Regional, State, Provincial Roads are the main feeder 
routes into, and provide the main links between primary roads. Typically under 
the responsibility of the Provincial Government and with medium levels of 
traffic.

3. Tertiary Roads - Municipal, Local, Rural Roads that connect the smaller 
towns to intermediate cities. Typically under the responsibility of the Local 
Governments and with low levels of traffic.

Unclassified Road Network.

4. Unclassified Roads. Mostly private roads or of unknown responsibility to 
build and operate. Typically maintained by local communities or by private 
mining, forestry, or agricultural enterprises.

Urban Network- Located within the boundaries of urban areas

1/2/3. Highway. [Expressway, Motorways] Parts of the Primary, Secondary or 
Tertiary Roads that go across an urban area. Parts of the National, Provincial 
Network. Expressways with limited access. Typically no pedestrian or bicycle 
access.

5. Arterial. [Route, Boulevard] Connecting key areas of urban activity with 
higher traffic levels and longest trip lengths. High speeds with minimum 
interference to through movements, like those used by bus routes.

6. Collector. [Avenue] Provides land access and traffic circulation within 
urban areas. Penetrates neighborhoods, collecting and distributing traffic 
between neighborhoods and arterial network. Medium traffic levels with moderate 
trip lengths. Medium speeds with frequent interference to through movements.

7. Local. [Street] Road used to provide access to adjacent land and to the 
collector network and to higher order of streets. Lower traffic level with 
through traffic deliberately discouraged. Low speed.

8. Path. [Lane, Passage] Narrow mostly single lane in between buildings or 
behind a row of houses without sidewalks. Single direction and lowest level of 
traffic and lowest speed.

Add Classification for "Non-Motor Vehicles" that will not use the term road nor 
highways, like bicycle lane, pedestrian paths, etc.


Total Road Network = Primary + Secondary + Tertiary + Unclassified + Urban


B. ROAD SURFACE CLASS (Paved/Unpaved) & ROAD SURFACE TYPE

1. Paved

1.1 Concrete

1.2 Asphalt

1.3 Surface Treatment

2. Unpaved

2.1 Gravel

2.2 Earth

C. ROAD CONDITION

1. Very Good. Roads do not require any capital costs. Recently completed and/or 
very good quality and high standard.

2. Good. Roads largely free of defects and require only minor maintenance work.

3.