Re: [Tagging] Public transport zones
Let me try to clarify this. In case there are 2 companies stopping at a particular station, they both might have different properties for that stop: e.g. the names, reference numbers and zones. So the zone might depend on the company (both bus transportation), not on the form of transportation (bus vs. metro). This means that you need to group those attribute name, route_refs, refs, zones, etc.) per company. You could either add the company name to the key, create a different node for each company or maybe use a relation. So I wonder whether it is sufficient to just add ptv/vline to the key. m When you need 2 different zones for metro and regional networks you will probably also want to group the routes (and other information) that fall under each zone system. In that case your keys (public_transport_zone:ptv/vline) are also not sufficient. So you will end up with a relation of type zone in which all the public transport stops are grouped. Sorry, I don't really follow that. Routes are relations. But there doesn't have to be a relation per zone...I don't think. You could render something useful simply by using zone properties on each station and piece of track, for instance. Steve ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Public transport zones
Am 05/mar/2013 um 13:13 schrieb Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com: So the zone might depend on the company (both bus transportation), not on the form of transportation (bus vs. metro). This means that you need to group those attribute name, route_refs, refs, zones, etc.) per company. You could either add the company name to the key, create a different node for each company or maybe use a relation. I'd rather add 2 bus stops if all these attributes were differing... cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Public transport zones
On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 11:13 PM, Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com wrote: Let me try to clarify this. In case there are 2 companies stopping at a particular station, they both might have different properties for that stop: e.g. the names, reference numbers and zones. So the zone might depend on the company (both bus transportation), not on the form of transportation (bus vs. metro). This means that you need to group those attribute name, route_refs, refs, zones, etc.) per company. Agreed. As I mentioned before, my proposed scheme was: public_transport_zone:ptv=... public_transport_zone:vline=... (In Melbourne, the question of what to call them is a bit of a mess, as the branding changes every 5 years or so. I'm not sure what name to call the system of trains, buses and trams in Melbourne. Maybe it should be public_transport_zone:myki - that's the name of the ticketing system. Although again, to complicate matters, myki is supposedly being extended to regional transport real soon now...) You could either add the company name to the key, create a different node for each company or maybe use a relation. Martin wrote: I'd rather add 2 bus stops if all these attributes were differing... When there's a local bus stop at a regional bus station (including in the city centre), I think I'd do the same. They're not really the same bus stop, they're just very near each other. But for train stations, I feel differently. Regional trains stop at the same train station, at *the same platform* as local trains. (Each regional train typically stops at about 2-3 of the local stations on the way to/from the city centre.) So I think multiple nodes/areas would be wrong. Fortunately there is no such thing as regional trams :) Steve ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Public transport zones
Am 06.03.2013 03:56 schrieb Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com: Fortunately there is no such thing as regional trams :) I learned very early on that there is no such thing as 'no such thing' in OSM. There are quite a few regional trams here in Germany alone: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Cberlandstra%C3%9Fenbahn (German link, as the English page is about historic trams. Please use Google translate) Regards, Chaos ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Public transport zones
On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 4:37 PM, Ronnie Soak chaoschaos0...@googlemail.com wrote: Fortunately there is no such thing as regional trams :) I learned very early on that there is no such thing as 'no such thing' in OSM. There are quite a few regional trams here in Germany alone: ... in Victoria. Steve ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Public transport zones
On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 8:21 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: If you would prefer to use something generic referring to public transport it would be better to use something like public_transport_zone=* instead of just zone (but I'd prefer the approach proposed by Steve and the most used according to tag info: an explicit reference to the actual public transport provider / system / entity that created the zones in the key). Thanks for the replies. Thinking about it some more, maybe even more specific would be better: public_transport_zone:ptv=1 It's actually not beyond the bounds of possibility that we'd need to record a stop's zone within two different schemes. Several stations are on both the metro and regional networks. Apparently[1] our regional network has its own zone scheme, but there's some alignment between them (http://www.vline.com.au/fares-and-tickets/tickets/zoneb.html) So, the more I think about it, the more sense it seems to have: public_transport_zone:ptv=1+2 public_transport_zone:vline=B Ambiguous, common tags like 'zone' are fun for the people entering them, but a nightmare to compute over... Steve [1] I actually take regional transport a lot, but you don't seem to need to know this. You just tell them where you want to go and pay for the ticket... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Public transport zones
Why is zone ambiguous on a bus_stop ? Or any more ambiguous than name ? The latter is also used for so many different things. I see no need to make new tags for each new zone concept. This is only needed when 1 item can belong to different types of zones. When you need 2 different zones for metro and regional networks you will probably also want to group the routes (and other information) that fall under each zone system. In that case your keys (public_transport_zone:ptv/vline) are also not sufficient. So you will end up with a relation of type zone in which all the public transport stops are grouped. Just my .5 cent m ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Public transport zones
On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 3:27 AM, Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com wrote: Why is zone ambiguous on a bus_stop ? Or any more ambiguous than name ? The latter is also used for so many different things. These are deep semantic philosophy questions :) I'd point out that renderers can naively render name tags and produce something that is useful to the human consumer, but that's harder to do with PT zone tags. How important the zones are to the user varies a lot, so they'll probably only be used by a map product that is specific to that area anyway. I think. Maybe. When you need 2 different zones for metro and regional networks you will probably also want to group the routes (and other information) that fall under each zone system. In that case your keys (public_transport_zone:ptv/vline) are also not sufficient. So you will end up with a relation of type zone in which all the public transport stops are grouped. Sorry, I don't really follow that. Routes are relations. But there doesn't have to be a relation per zone...I don't think. You could render something useful simply by using zone properties on each station and piece of track, for instance. Steve ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Public transport zones
2013/3/3 Jo winfi...@gmail.com: I would simply use zone=1, zone=2 or zone=1;2 on them. That's how it's done in Belgium and The Netherlands. Although we don't have overlapping zones. I would use something more specific, zone is way too generic and can mean everything or nothing (e.g. maxspeed zones, low emission zones, building zoning, ...). Look at actual tags there is a variant of zone used more often: http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=zone naptan:PlusbusZoneRef If you would prefer to use something generic referring to public transport it would be better to use something like public_transport_zone=* instead of just zone (but I'd prefer the approach proposed by Steve and the most used according to tag info: an explicit reference to the actual public transport provider / system / entity that created the zones in the key). cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Public transport zones
Le 03/03/2013 10:21, Martin Koppenhoefer a écrit : 2013/3/3 Jo winfi...@gmail.com: I would simply use zone=1, zone=2 or zone=1;2 on them. That's how it's done in Belgium and The Netherlands. Although we don't have overlapping zones. I would use something more specific, zone is way too generic and can mean everything or nothing (e.g. maxspeed zones, low emission zones, building zoning, ...). Look at actual tags there is a variant of zone used more often: http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=zone naptan:PlusbusZoneRef If you would prefer to use something generic referring to public transport it would be better to use something like public_transport_zone=* instead of just zone (but I'd prefer the approach proposed by Steve and the most used according to tag info: an explicit reference to the actual public transport provider / system / entity that created the zones in the key). cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging Hi, In France, around Paris, we have the same kind of areas. The information appears to be relevant to the operator, but on the Paris region there are two operators (RATP and SNCF) using the same kind of information (zones); these areas and prices are defined by a local authority (STIF, Syndicat des Transports d'Île de France). Operators manage multiple kinds of transports: bus, subways, tramways and regional trains. Inside stations where tarifications can differ, there are often separations of areas with automatic control points of transport tickets (or magnetic cards) with turnstiles. Example, between regional train and subways. It is not always related to the deserved place: some places can be reached by subway (RATP, always in zone 1) and also by other means (bus, train...) in other zones. So in that case the information is relevant to a stop position only (not a full station). We are looking for means to store the zone information the best way, since it has an important impact on the user navigation. Teuxe ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Public transport zones
Hi all, I don't see any wiki documentation on public transport zones: that is, how to tag that station X is in zone 3, station Y is in zone 2, for systems where the price of a ticket depends on the zones travelled. For example, in Melbourne, there are two zones. Some train stations are in zone 1, some in 2, and some in the 1+2 overlap. Travelling from 1+2 to 2 only requires a zone 2 ticket, which is cheaper than a zone 1 ticket. Travelling from 1 to 2 requires a 12 ticket, which is the most expensive. Any recommended tags? Otherwise, I was thinking of something like: ptv:zone1=yes ptv:zone2=yes or maybe: ptv:zone=1 ptv:zone=1+2 (PTV is Public Transport Victoria...) Steve ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Public transport zones
I would simply use zone=1, zone=2 or zone=1;2 on them. That's how it's done in Belgium and The Netherlands. Although we don't have overlapping zones. The rules (which change every so many years) in Flanders, the northern part of Belgium, are: travelling through 1 or 2 zones has one tariff, and travelling through more than 2 has another. Which tariff depends on whether you buy the ticket with the driver, or in advance. When buying a ticket by sending a text message with a cell phone, the zones are not relevant, only travelling duration... If you happen to need the zone tag for something else on your stops, you could use zone:ptv, but it seems better to add operator=ptv or operator=PT Victoria. Cheers, Jo 2013/3/3 Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com Hi all, I don't see any wiki documentation on public transport zones: that is, how to tag that station X is in zone 3, station Y is in zone 2, for systems where the price of a ticket depends on the zones travelled. For example, in Melbourne, there are two zones. Some train stations are in zone 1, some in 2, and some in the 1+2 overlap. Travelling from 1+2 to 2 only requires a zone 2 ticket, which is cheaper than a zone 1 ticket. Travelling from 1 to 2 requires a 12 ticket, which is the most expensive. Any recommended tags? Otherwise, I was thinking of something like: ptv:zone1=yes ptv:zone2=yes or maybe: ptv:zone=1 ptv:zone=1+2 (PTV is Public Transport Victoria...) Steve ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
