Re: [Tagging] RFC - Criteria for taging as either via_ferrata or path
On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 11:16:47AM +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 2015-04-24 11:01 GMT+02:00 Richard Z. ricoz@gmail.com: so are you happy that this http://www.bergsteigen.com/klettersteig/trentino-suedtirol/gardasee-berge/ferrata-rino-pisetta is tagged as highway=path ? I believe this clearly isn't a path, at least not at the spot you can see on the photo linked by you above. If you are aware of such mistagging, please correct it, it's a wiki... FYI this is a 400 meters vertical wall. I would correct it but it appears there are some more higway=paths in that impressive wall and I don't know them all. Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] RFC - Criteria for taging as either via_ferrata or path
On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 04:27:23AM +0200, Friedrich Volkmann wrote: On 24.04.2015 02:16, Warin wrote: Via ferrata should not be lumped into path or footway .. they are very significantly different and cannot be used in place of a path or footway. Would you take a 3 year old along it? Did you read the discussion tab? Farratas are not more difficult nor more dangerous than other paths. Where there's a ferrata and a parallel unsecured path in the same terrain, I would take the 3-year-old along the ferrata. so are you happy that this http://www.bergsteigen.com/klettersteig/trentino-suedtirol/gardasee-berge/ferrata-rino-pisetta is tagged as highway=path ? Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] RFC - Criteria for taging as either via_ferrata or path
On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 04:57:06AM +0200, Friedrich Volkmann wrote: On 23.04.2015 11:59, Richard Z. wrote: there were ongoing discussions concerning this subject so I have ammended the wiki: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/via_ferrata#Criteria_for_taging_as_either_via_ferrata_or_path use highway=via_ferrata where people commonly use ferrata kits This is an individual decision. I know someone who did all ferratas (difficulty A-E) in eastern Austria without a ferrata kit. I also saw people using a ferrata kit on an easy ladder, and on a short wire rope that is meant as a handrail. Sure. But the phrase where people commonly use ferrata kits means where you commonly see people using ferrata kits. It may be even a toy ferrata for children - if you see plenty of them using ferrata kits it is probably better to tag as ferrata. There are ferratas which are more than hundred years old. Nobody used ferrata kits back then, because they simply did not exist. Back to today. Some of those very olde ferratas may be called ferrata but perhaps don't really deserve to be tagged as that. Which is why I tired to formulate this cirteria. a path is way where a hiker can walk without a ferrata kit and without extensive use of arm muscles See above. What's an extensive use? Experienced climbers will tell you that they do it all by technique instead of muscle power. it means to say you do not hang on your arms for a substantial part of the path. Ladders can and should be mapped separately so they need not to be considered here. Btw most hikers are not experienced climbers. a path should be safely passable without a ferrata kit even in less than optimal weather So we need to delete all paths in high mountains, because they are neither ferratas nor safely passable when icy. no. But if you can use the way safely only with a ferrata kit or climbing equipment it should be mapped accordingly. Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] RFC - Criteria for taging as either via_ferrata or path
On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 10:16:55AM +1000, Warin wrote: Some minor things .. overhang ? Should not 'covered' be used? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:covered overhang here means an additional technical difficulty of the path. Key:covered could be used in addition to that. Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] RFC - Criteria for taging as either via_ferrata or path
2015-04-24 11:01 GMT+02:00 Richard Z. ricoz@gmail.com: so are you happy that this http://www.bergsteigen.com/klettersteig/trentino-suedtirol/gardasee-berge/ferrata-rino-pisetta is tagged as highway=path ? I believe this clearly isn't a path, at least not at the spot you can see on the photo linked by you above. If you are aware of such mistagging, please correct it, it's a wiki... Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] RFC - Criteria for taging as either via_ferrata or path
On 24.04.2015 11:01, Richard Z. wrote: On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 04:27:23AM +0200, Friedrich Volkmann wrote: On 24.04.2015 02:16, Warin wrote: Via ferrata should not be lumped into path or footway .. they are very significantly different and cannot be used in place of a path or footway. Would you take a 3 year old along it? Did you read the discussion tab? Farratas are not more difficult nor more dangerous than other paths. Where there's a ferrata and a parallel unsecured path in the same terrain, I would take the 3-year-old along the ferrata. so are you happy that this http://www.bergsteigen.com/klettersteig/trentino-suedtirol/gardasee-berge/ferrata-rino-pisetta is tagged as highway=path ? Yes. Of course I wouln't take a 3 year old along that ferrata, but I wouln't take a 3 year old to that whole area at all. I know of a ferrata (Frauenluckensteig) of difficulty B where average 10-year-old childs are too short to reach the next rung. One hiking path called Reißtalersteig is even easier (A) and you wouln't call it a ferrata, but one rung is hard to reach even for adults, so people put a pile of stones on the ground to reach that rung. Children or bad weather make every path more difficult and dangerous, not only ferratas. -- Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] RFC - Criteria for taging as either via_ferrata or path
On 24.04.2015 05:02, Warin wrote: The essence of a modern via ferrata is a steel cable which runs along the route and is periodically (every 3 to 10 metres (9.8 to 32.8 ft)) fixed to the rock. So you certainly agree that this is safer than an unsecured path. Nevertheless, a ferrata cannot be defined by the cable, because not all ferratas are that modern. E.g. the Wildenauersteig has no cable but rungs. Some ferratas have chains instead of cables because the chains do a better job withstanding rockfall, and they provide a better grip. -- Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] RFC - Criteria for taging as either via_ferrata or path
Some minor things .. overhang ? Should not 'covered' be used? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:covered Even more trivial ... Oneway .. should include the information that it is on the direction of the way ... -1 for reverse direction. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:oneway This tag should have been passed... Via ferrata should not be lumped into path or footway .. they are very significantly different and cannot be used in place of a path or footway. Would you take a 3 year old along it? On 23/04/2015 7:59 PM, Richard Z. wrote: Hi, there were ongoing discussions concerning this subject so I have ammended the wiki: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/via_ferrata#Criteria_for_taging_as_either_via_ferrata_or_path Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] RFC - Criteria for taging as either via_ferrata or path
Hi, there were ongoing discussions concerning this subject so I have ammended the wiki: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/via_ferrata#Criteria_for_taging_as_either_via_ferrata_or_path Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] RFC - Criteria for taging as either via_ferrata or path
The ones in Japan ( I have seen) are chains. Some routes are easily passible without chains, some are beyond vertical in spots with the chain to climb. And grandpas were climbing them with a pair of gloves. occasionally there were big anchor rings used as handholds. For the easier and crowded routes, no one out on the mountain in Japan had any safety gear beyond a pair of leather gloves. The The upper mountain routes were all serious climbing routes, beyond the help of chains. Signs warning of death by falling were at the entrances to these upper routes. A few people with climbing harnesses, helmets, and ropes were the only ones on those routes. The lower ones - with chains, with 20m diagonal slopes or 3m vertical drops on the trail (and 50m vertical drops off the sides) were being climbed by people in sneakers and garden gloves. So just because there are chains, it doesn’t mean that a person would have any additional gear. I was just carrying 10KG of camera gear for pictures. Javbw On Apr 24, 2015, at 12:48 PM, Friedrich Volkmann b...@volki.at wrote: On 24.04.2015 05:02, Warin wrote: The essence of a modern via ferrata is a steel cable which runs along the route and is periodically (every 3 to 10 metres (9.8 to 32.8 ft)) fixed to the rock. So you certainly agree that this is safer than an unsecured path. Nevertheless, a ferrata cannot be defined by the cable, because not all ferratas are that modern. E.g. the Wildenauersteig has no cable but rungs. Some ferratas have chains instead of cables because the chains do a better job withstanding rockfall, and they provide a better grip. -- Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] RFC - Criteria for taging as either via_ferrata or path
On 24.04.2015 02:16, Warin wrote: Via ferrata should not be lumped into path or footway .. they are very significantly different and cannot be used in place of a path or footway. Would you take a 3 year old along it? Did you read the discussion tab? Farratas are not more difficult nor more dangerous than other paths. Where there's a ferrata and a parallel unsecured path in the same terrain, I would take the 3-year-old along the ferrata. -- Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] RFC - Criteria for taging as either via_ferrata or path
On 23.04.2015 11:59, Richard Z. wrote: there were ongoing discussions concerning this subject so I have ammended the wiki: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/via_ferrata#Criteria_for_taging_as_either_via_ferrata_or_path use highway=via_ferrata where people commonly use ferrata kits This is an individual decision. I know someone who did all ferratas (difficulty A-E) in eastern Austria without a ferrata kit. I also saw people using a ferrata kit on an easy ladder, and on a short wire rope that is meant as a handrail. There are ferratas which are more than hundred years old. Nobody used ferrata kits back then, because they simply did not exist. a path is way where a hiker can walk without a ferrata kit and without extensive use of arm muscles See above. What's an extensive use? Experienced climbers will tell you that they do it all by technique instead of muscle power. a path should be safely passable without a ferrata kit even in less than optimal weather So we need to delete all paths in high mountains, because they are neither ferratas nor safely passable when icy. -- Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] RFC - Criteria for taging as either via_ferrata or path
On 24/04/2015 12:27 PM, Friedrich Volkmann wrote: On 24.04.2015 02:16, Warin wrote: Via ferrata should not be lumped into path or footway .. they are very significantly different and cannot be used in place of a path or footway. Would you take a 3 year old along it? Did you read the discussion tab? Yes. Thank you. I also looked at the photos. And read the main page. And from the wikipedia entry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Via_ferrata The essence of a modern via ferrata is a steel cable which runs along the route and is periodically (every 3 to 10 metres (9.8 to 32.8 ft)) fixed to the rock. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
