[Tagging] Re-organizing food things? (was: Re: amenity=ice_cream: approved?)
On Mon, 27 Sep 2010 04:14:19 -0400, Nathan Edgars II wrote: On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 3:48 AM, David Paleino da...@debian.org wrote: On Sun, 26 Sep 2010 21:26:27 -0400, Nathan Edgars II wrote: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Proposed_features%2FIce_creamaction=historysubmitdiff=532984oldid=531944 This doesn't seem quite right. 27-18 + 1 abstain, seems an approved to me. Controversial, yes, but approved. A vote that starts out with almost all approves and ends up with almost all opposes is not controversial but fishy. The line between most approves and most opposes is when it was posted to this list; in other words most approve votes were made before it was announced. Almost every one of those approves is by someone living in Italy, which suggests discussion on the Italian mailing list or other discussion among a small group in an echo chamber. Once it was belatedly announced here, most new voters opposed it. It's very possible that the outcome would have been different had it been announced here promptly (or, to be fair, it may have been the same, with the Italian bloc voting the same way). How would you call then shop=ice_cream, sneaked in the wiki without any discussion or voting or anything else? And now we have a tag that replaces all ice cream places, thus providing less information than the former amenity=cafe/fast_food/etc. cuisine=ice_cream. How is this a good thing? You can tag whatever way you like. If you think that amenity=cafe/fast_food/... + cuisine= is better, just use it. AIUI Map features are just suggestions. Also, I believe the icecream tagging should be improved. There are places selling icecreams, but not mainly them, so I'd suggest using ice_cream=yes (also to avoid multivalue). Say, amenity=cafe, ice_cream=yes (a cafe also selling wrapped icecreams is different from an icecream parlour, selling self-made icecream). On a related note: me and some other people on #osm-it were thinking about re-organizing the food tagging (take food as an example in the following). Something like: amenity=food + food=cafe|fast_food|restaurant|... This way, we would avoid the amenity overcrowding, and have a more structured tagging scheme. However, we couldn't find a proper value for amenity= (in place of the above food) to make a draft proposal. Maybe catering, but none of us liked it either. Ideas? (sorry for hijacking the thread, but I feel it's a good place/time to talk about it) -- . ''`. Debian developer | http://wiki.debian.org/DavidPaleino : :' : Linuxer #334216 --|-- http://www.hanskalabs.net/ `. `'` GPG: 1392B174 | http://deb.li/dapal `- 2BAB C625 4E66 E7B8 450A C3E1 E6AA 9017 1392 B174 signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Re-organizing food things? (was: Re: amenity=ice_cream: approved?)
On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 4:49 AM, David Paleino da...@debian.org wrote: How would you call then shop=ice_cream, sneaked in the wiki without any discussion or voting or anything else? Another bad tag. On a related note: me and some other people on #osm-it were thinking about re-organizing the food tagging (take food as an example in the following). Something like: amenity=food + food=cafe|fast_food|restaurant|... This way, we would avoid the amenity overcrowding, and have a more structured tagging scheme. How about retail=food (or drop the food: retail=restaurant/etc.)? Why use amenity at all? An area of food places will be landuse=retail, and a consistent hierarchy will be easier to tag. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Re-organizing food things?
2010/9/27 David Paleino da...@debian.org: I'd say +1 to retail=food and food=cafe|restaurant|... though. -1, I wouldn't tag restaurants, cafes and others as retail. I am not opposing food=cafe / restaurant, etc., this would also be compatible with the current amenity-tag, but I don't see a big benefit (we already have lots of lots of amenity=restaurant, pub etc.) In German I would use Gastronomie as main tag for those, but I'm not sure if gastronomy would be the exact translation in English for this. My dictionary suggests catering as an alternative. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Re-organizing food things?
On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 6:05 AM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2010/9/27 David Paleino da...@debian.org: I'd say +1 to retail=food and food=cafe|restaurant|... though. -1, I wouldn't tag restaurants, cafes and others as retail. Why not? They're places where you buy things. In German I would use Gastronomie as main tag for those, but I'm not sure if gastronomy would be the exact translation in English for this. My dictionary suggests catering as an alternative. Catering is a specific type of business where a company delivers prepared food to a meeting. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Re-organizing food things?
On Mon, 27 Sep 2010 06:15:50 -0400, Nathan Edgars II wrote: On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 6:05 AM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer In German I would use Gastronomie as main tag for those, but I'm not sure if gastronomy would be the exact translation in English for this. My dictionary suggests catering as an alternative. Catering is a specific type of business where a company delivers prepared food to a meeting. I was going to reply to Martin, but this is *exactly* the reason why, while discussing it on IRC, we didn't like it. -- . ''`. Debian developer | http://wiki.debian.org/DavidPaleino : :' : Linuxer #334216 --|-- http://www.hanskalabs.net/ `. `'` GPG: 1392B174 | http://deb.li/dapal `- 2BAB C625 4E66 E7B8 450A C3E1 E6AA 9017 1392 B174 signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Re-organizing food things? (was: Re: amenity=ice_cream: approved?)
On 9/27/10, David Paleino da...@debian.org wrote: On Mon, 27 Sep 2010 04:14:19 -0400, Nathan Edgars II wrote: [...] Almost every one of those approves is by someone living in Italy, which suggests discussion on the Italian mailing list or other discussion among a small group in an echo chamber. There was indeed some discussion on the italian mailing list, where they felt the need to distinguish between italian style gelateria and other kinds of ice cream sellers Once it was belatedly announced here, most new voters opposed it. It's very possible that the outcome would have been different had it been announced here promptly (or, to be fair, it may have been the same, with the Italian bloc voting the same way). it would have probably be the same, possibly in a different order; btw, there are also a few opposes from italy, and this leads to the main subject of this thread [...] On a related note: me and some other people on #osm-it were thinking about re-organizing the food tagging (take food as an example in the following). Something like: amenity=food + food=cafe|fast_food|restaurant|... This way, we would avoid the amenity overcrowding, and have a more structured tagging scheme. another proposal was to stay out of the amenity namespace and create a new one to include such places as are included in the food and drink category of presets in josm; i.e. something like food+drink=bar|cafe|restaurant|fast_food|... this would give a space for regional variants such as food+drink=biergarten|gelateria|whatever_else, preventing the creation of additional amenities whose usage makes little sense out of a limited region with the addition of cousine tags, this will probably give enough information for a passable management of such places by users (renderers, routers, etc.) that don't know about every possible kind of eatery in the world. of course, we still have the problem with the tag name, since food+drink doesn't look quite right -- Elena ``of Valhalla'' homepage: http://www.trueelena.org email: elena.valha...@gmail.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Re-organizing food things?
On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 12:23 PM, David Paleino da...@debian.org wrote: Why changing an old and widely used amenity=restaurant+cuisine ? As it was mentionned many times in the past, discussing new keys is easy when it's about new features (e.g. craft). But changing old and well established tags is generating a huge amount of work for many people (data consumers, editors, etc). This can be accepted only if it's to clear ambiguities or add a real value but that's not the case here. Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Re-organizing food things?
On 9/27/10, Pieren pier...@gmail.com wrote: Why changing an old and widely used amenity=restaurant+cuisine ? [...] This can be accepted only if it's to clear ambiguities or add a real value but that's not the case here. mostly because the current system does not scale, with food+drinks places being an area where there are lots of regional differences -- Elena ``of Valhalla'' homepage: http://www.trueelena.org email: elena.valha...@gmail.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Re-organizing food things?
Why changing an old and widely used amenity=restaurant+cuisine ? +1 Although I agree that the current amenity=restaurant, fast_food...etc. is a bit awkward, it is nearly unthinkable that it should be changed because of the number of people who are already using and rendering the data. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Re-organizing food things? (was: Re: amenity=ice_cream: approved?)
2010/9/27 Elena of Valhalla elena.valha...@gmail.com: There was indeed some discussion on the italian mailing list, where they felt the need to distinguish between italian style gelateria and other kinds of ice cream sellers and not only... this would give a space for regional variants such as food+drink=biergarten|gelateria|whatever_else, preventing the creation of additional amenities whose usage makes little sense out of a limited region it would shift the problem from amenity to food+drink. You already can tag stuff like it:gelateria, no matter what key you put it in. of course, we still have the problem with the tag name, since food+drink doesn't look quite right if is probably not good English, but I think it's quite appealing: it is easily understandable by (almost) everyone, and it is very clear what's the intention/what fits into it. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Re-organizing food things? (was: Re: amenity=ice_cream: approved?)
On Mon, 27 Sep 2010 17:19:58 +0200, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote: 2010/9/27 Elena of Valhalla elena.valha...@gmail.com: of course, we still have the problem with the tag name, since food+drink doesn't look quite right if is probably not good English, but I think it's quite appealing: it is easily understandable by (almost) everyone, and it is very clear what's the intention/what fits into it. I don't know of any key with a + in it; I believe it could be error-prone. -- . ''`. Debian developer | http://wiki.debian.org/DavidPaleino : :' : Linuxer #334216 --|-- http://www.hanskalabs.net/ `. `'` GPG: 1392B174 | http://deb.li/dapal `- 2BAB C625 4E66 E7B8 450A C3E1 E6AA 9017 1392 B174 signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Re-organizing food things? (was: Re: amenity=ice_cream: approved?)
On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 05:19:58PM +0200, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote: 2010/9/27 Elena of Valhalla elena.valha...@gmail.com: this would give a space for regional variants such as food+drink=biergarten|gelateria|whatever_else, preventing the creation of additional amenities whose usage makes little sense out of a limited region it would shift the problem from amenity to food+drink. You already can tag stuff like it:gelateria, no matter what key you put it in. It would alleviate the problem, since fallback to a default food+drink behaviour conveys more informations than fallback to a meaningless amenity. -- Elena ``of Valhalla'' homepage: http://www.trueelena.org ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Re-organizing food things?
On 9/27/10 1:08 PM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote: because not everyone to whom you give money to get something can be considered a retailer. Wikipedia states:In commerce, a retailer buys goods or products in large quantities from manufacturers or importers, either directly or through a wholesaler, and then sells smaller quantities to the end-user. Retail establishments are often called shops or stores. Retailers are at the end of the supply chain. the wikipedia definition is narrower than actual usage, then. i spent 4+ years as a software developer at a major US bank, and we definitely distinguished between retail banking (where customers walked up to teller windows or sat down with agents) and wholesale banking (major customers who interacted with us in a distinctly different manner.) which is certainly outside the wikipedia definition... richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
