Re: [Tagging] Service road - Can it be a driveway if serving multiple houses?
On 06/11/2019 18:04, Greg Troxel wrote: I think a shared driveway is still a driveway. This is the crux. The only distinguishing attribute from what we'd all tag as a driveway is that's it's shared. A driveway is designated as privately owned rather than by the local authority. It isn't defined by how many own it. As Greg pointed out no one gave it a specific name in this thread. All references were to it being a 'shared driveway'. If other people had tagged in driveway, and amazon removed it as part of a large-scale paid edit, I think that's totally not ok. I'm unsure if this is a blanket policy of Amazon, I think it maybe just this one editor. I see large-scale paid edits as part way to mechanical edits, and think they have to be more deferential than normal mappers. I really think OSM as a whole needs to steer away from considering edits based purely on their size as something to be fearful of. As long as the data is accurate & improves OSM's database quality then it should be welcomed. With Amazon specifically, the data is coming from their GPS recordings & is being gradually added. (Unsure whether the contributors being paid makes any difference). Overall I'd say their edits contain the same amount of errors as the average OSM contributor. DaveF ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Service road - Can it be a driveway if serving multiple houses?
Dave F via Tagging writes: > In the UK, Amazon Logistics are adding useful data from their GPS'd > delivery vehicles. Mainly highway=service as the last part of their > journey to a destination. > > However, one of their contributors removed service=driveway from a > highway=service road. In the changeset comments they said it was > because it served multiple residential properties. > > https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/76576604#map=19/51.33398/-2.27945 I think a shared driveway is still a driveway. That's why we call it "shared dirveway". The difference at some point between "shared driveway" and "road in a subdivision" is perhaps in terms of the number of houses, but in Massachusetts is very much about the land ownership and the road being its own lot. As for "signed as private", around me it is fairly unusual for residential driveways, shared or not, to be signed "private" or "no trespassing". I'd guess 1 in 100, and maybe 1 in 20 of very long ones. It's obvious to those who are paying attention what is a road and what is a driveway, usually because width makes it clear, plus the lack of road sign. So I think mapping as access=private is appropriate even if not signed, because on a driveway on private property the public does not have a right of access, even if they aren't "trespassing after notice". If other people had tagged in driveway, and amazon removed it as part of a large-scale paid edit, I think that's totally not ok. If they are just declining to add drvieway tags while putting in ways, that's fine. I see large-scale paid edits as part way to mechanical edits, and think they have to be more deferential than normal mappers. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Service road - Can it be a driveway if serving multiple houses?
On Tue, 2019-11-05 at 09:41 -0700, brad wrote: > I live in a single family home with a shared driveway. The next > door > neighbor house is 7 meters from my house. The driveway is about 10 > meters shared, then it splits, about 10 meters to each garage.If > it > were mapped, I think it should be tagged as driveway, but I don't > think > it's relevant to map. > A short driveway such as this is unlikely to get mapped, mine is very similar although only to a single property. I live in a 70s/80s development. What I consider to be shared driveways, leading to 3 or 4 properties are a feature of modern housing estates. Whilst mappers have tended to ignore these as they are neither public or lead anywhere of interest (not part of our usecase), after all UK mappers are mostly walkers or cyclists. They are a big part of the usecase for the growing parcel delivery sector, Amazon Logistics have been armchairing these at a rate us local mappers find hard to keep up with. Often incorrectly as residential roads. I am now seeing that we need to map these correctly and use our local knowledge to map them correctly before they are mapped incorrectly by mappers who lack the experience of having seen these on these features on the ground. Phil (trigpoint) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Service road - Can it be a driveway if serving multiple houses?
I live in a single family home with a shared driveway. The next door neighbor house is 7 meters from my house. The driveway is about 10 meters shared, then it splits, about 10 meters to each garage. If it were mapped, I think it should be tagged as driveway, but I don't think it's relevant to map. On 11/5/19 9:21 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: I’d like to add gated communities: these are completely private settlements, with restricted access, but there is still a road hierarchy that may merit more distinction than just service with and without a driveway qualifier (i.e. we’ll usually solve these with access restrictions). For me a driveway is either a service on private ground leading to just one house (or maybe duplex/apartment house or other residential building) or to the backstage area of a commercial place like the loading zone of a supermarket. When roads are leading to several properties I would use at least service without the driveway qualifier, or residential. Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Service road - Can it be a driveway if serving multiple houses?
I’d like to add gated communities: these are completely private settlements, with restricted access, but there is still a road hierarchy that may merit more distinction than just service with and without a driveway qualifier (i.e. we’ll usually solve these with access restrictions). For me a driveway is either a service on private ground leading to just one house (or maybe duplex/apartment house or other residential building) or to the backstage area of a commercial place like the loading zone of a supermarket. When roads are leading to several properties I would use at least service without the driveway qualifier, or residential. Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Service road - Can it be a driveway if serving multiple houses?
On Tue, 5 Nov 2019 at 14:54, John Sturdy wrote: > I think of a driveway as typically leading to only one house, > Usually. There are exceptions, such as where there's a gateway to a drive that was originally for a single house but a new house was later built on the grounds. > and would generally call the shared ones something else, probably "service > roads" > Or even a residential road. There are housing estates near me where that is a better fit than service road. A service road is a means to an end: public road network at one end, a single house or smaller cluster of houses at the other. When there are houses all the way along it, that's a residential road (in my opinion). It's a grey area. . I'd make an exception for the access to a pair of houses e.g. > semi-detached, or adjacent but linked by their garages/carports. > Yeah, that's another exception. There's a few like that near me. Housing estate, residential road, shared driveway to the garages. -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Service road - Can it be a driveway if serving multiple houses?
I think of a driveway as typically leading to only one house, and would generally call the shared ones something else, probably "service roads". I'd make an exception for the access to a pair of houses e.g. semi-detached, or adjacent but linked by their garages/carports. __John On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 2:26 PM Philip Barnes wrote: > Sections of shared, non-public service road, are certainly a common > feature of modern housing developments. > > I have considered them to be private driveways. > > Private does not require a sign, walk down any suburban street in Europe > or North America and you will see hundreds of driveways, without signs or > gates and nobody will assume there is a public right of way there. > > Phil (trigpoint) > > On Tuesday, 5 November 2019, Jez Nicholson wrote: > > Personally, I would only call the short bits of tarmac that spur off that > > service road as 'driveways' because they each go to a single house. I'm > > sure that there are examples of shared driveways in the UK but I would > > consider them rare. > > > > On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 1:52 PM Dave F via Tagging < > tagging@openstreetmap.org> > > wrote: > > > > > Hi > > > > > > In the UK, Amazon Logistics are adding useful data from their GPS'd > > > delivery vehicles. Mainly highway=service as the last part of their > > > journey to a destination. > > > > > > However, one of their contributors removed service=driveway from a > > > highway=service road. In the changeset comments they said it was > because > > > it served multiple residential properties. > > > > > > > https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/76576604#map=19/51.33398/-2.27945 > > > > > > From memory, it wasn't signed as private, but it appears to be > > > unadopted by the local authority (There are no raised kerbed pavements, > > > drainage or lighting). I'm assuming it's shared ownership. > > > > > > For indicative purposes only. (The image is ten years old): > > > > > > > https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.3343975,-2.278377,3a,60y,185.39h,67.19t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5I6ruGYQsgQv4cC0iLM6SA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 > > > > > > Personally I see no problem tagging this as a driveway even if it's > shared. > > > > > > Thoughts? > > > > > > DaveF > > > > > > ___ > > > Tagging mailing list > > > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > > > > > > > -- > Sent from my Sailfish device > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Service road - Can it be a driveway if serving multiple houses?
Sections of shared, non-public service road, are certainly a common feature of modern housing developments. I have considered them to be private driveways. Private does not require a sign, walk down any suburban street in Europe or North America and you will see hundreds of driveways, without signs or gates and nobody will assume there is a public right of way there. Phil (trigpoint) On Tuesday, 5 November 2019, Jez Nicholson wrote: > Personally, I would only call the short bits of tarmac that spur off that > service road as 'driveways' because they each go to a single house. I'm > sure that there are examples of shared driveways in the UK but I would > consider them rare. > > On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 1:52 PM Dave F via Tagging > wrote: > > > Hi > > > > In the UK, Amazon Logistics are adding useful data from their GPS'd > > delivery vehicles. Mainly highway=service as the last part of their > > journey to a destination. > > > > However, one of their contributors removed service=driveway from a > > highway=service road. In the changeset comments they said it was because > > it served multiple residential properties. > > > > https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/76576604#map=19/51.33398/-2.27945 > > > > From memory, it wasn't signed as private, but it appears to be > > unadopted by the local authority (There are no raised kerbed pavements, > > drainage or lighting). I'm assuming it's shared ownership. > > > > For indicative purposes only. (The image is ten years old): > > > > https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.3343975,-2.278377,3a,60y,185.39h,67.19t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5I6ruGYQsgQv4cC0iLM6SA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 > > > > Personally I see no problem tagging this as a driveway even if it's shared. > > > > Thoughts? > > > > DaveF > > > > ___ > > Tagging mailing list > > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > > > -- Sent from my Sailfish device ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Service road - Can it be a driveway if serving multiple houses?
Personally, I would only call the short bits of tarmac that spur off that service road as 'driveways' because they each go to a single house. I'm sure that there are examples of shared driveways in the UK but I would consider them rare. On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 1:52 PM Dave F via Tagging wrote: > Hi > > In the UK, Amazon Logistics are adding useful data from their GPS'd > delivery vehicles. Mainly highway=service as the last part of their > journey to a destination. > > However, one of their contributors removed service=driveway from a > highway=service road. In the changeset comments they said it was because > it served multiple residential properties. > > https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/76576604#map=19/51.33398/-2.27945 > > From memory, it wasn't signed as private, but it appears to be > unadopted by the local authority (There are no raised kerbed pavements, > drainage or lighting). I'm assuming it's shared ownership. > > For indicative purposes only. (The image is ten years old): > > https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.3343975,-2.278377,3a,60y,185.39h,67.19t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5I6ruGYQsgQv4cC0iLM6SA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 > > Personally I see no problem tagging this as a driveway even if it's shared. > > Thoughts? > > DaveF > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Service road - Can it be a driveway if serving multiple houses?
Hi In the UK, Amazon Logistics are adding useful data from their GPS'd delivery vehicles. Mainly highway=service as the last part of their journey to a destination. However, one of their contributors removed service=driveway from a highway=service road. In the changeset comments they said it was because it served multiple residential properties. https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/76576604#map=19/51.33398/-2.27945 From memory, it wasn't signed as private, but it appears to be unadopted by the local authority (There are no raised kerbed pavements, drainage or lighting). I'm assuming it's shared ownership. For indicative purposes only. (The image is ten years old): https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.3343975,-2.278377,3a,60y,185.39h,67.19t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5I6ruGYQsgQv4cC0iLM6SA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 Personally I see no problem tagging this as a driveway even if it's shared. Thoughts? DaveF ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
