Re: [Tagging] Sidewalks and cycleways as tags vs as extra lines and StreetComplete

[Andy Townsend]

On 22/01/2018 16:05, Fernando Trebien wrote:

Undone.

Thanks

But we need to talk about how messy the scheme is becoming by
mapping cycleways and sidewalks differently when separate from the
main way.
To be honest I wouldn't worry too much about how complicated the tagging 
scheme is, as long as it's well supported both by mappers and by the 
editors that mappers use (except of course that the less complicated a 
tagging scheme is the more likely mappers are to adopt it).


Best Regards,
Andy


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Re: [Tagging] Sidewalks and cycleways as tags vs as extra lines and StreetComplete

[Fernando Trebien]

Undone. But we need to talk about how messy the scheme is becoming by
mapping cycleways and sidewalks differently when separate from the
main way.

We have sidewalk=separate [1] on the main way to express that a
sidewalk was mapped separately.
We have footway=sidewalk [2] on the separate way to express that it is
a sidewalk and not some other kind of footway.
On cycleways, we don't suggest using any tag (we only advise against
double representation) [3], even though cycleway=sidepath has been
used for both purposes [4].

It would be sensible to use the same terminology to express the same
concept, while adoption is still low.

[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:sidewalk%3Dseparate
[2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:footway%3Dsidewalk
[3] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:cycleway#Cycle_tracks
[4] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:cycleway%3Dsidepath

On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 12:19 PM, Andy Townsend  wrote:
> On 15/01/2018 14:47, Fernando Trebien wrote:
>>
>> When mapping sidewalks and cycleways, it is possible to do so as tags
>> on the line of the motorised way [1][2] or as standalone lines
>> parallel to it [1][3].
>
>
> You've recently changed the wiki to suggest that sidewalk=sidepath is valid:
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:sidewalk=next=1523440
>
> taginfo suggests that almost no-one uses it, so I don't think that this is a
> sensible wiki change:
>
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/sidewalk=sidepath
>
> The wiki is at its best when it describes how people map, not when people
> who have not mapped a thing tell other people how to map things.
>
> Best Regards,
> Andy
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Sidewalks and cycleways as tags vs as extra lines and StreetComplete

[Andy Townsend]

On 15/01/2018 14:47, Fernando Trebien wrote:

When mapping sidewalks and cycleways, it is possible to do so as tags
on the line of the motorised way [1][2] or as standalone lines
parallel to it [1][3].


You've recently changed the wiki to suggest that sidewalk=sidepath is valid:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:sidewalk=next=1523440

taginfo suggests that almost no-one uses it, so I don't think that this 
is a sensible wiki change:


https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/sidewalk=sidepath

The wiki is at its best when it describes how people map, not when 
people who have not mapped a thing tell other people how to map things.


Best Regards,
Andy


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Re: [Tagging] Sidewalks and cycleways as tags vs as extra lines and StreetComplete

[Fernando Trebien]

On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 7:49 PM, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
> Two nice examples of complex cases, which in my view would be best tagged
> using the cycleway=lane tag and separate foot- and cycle-ways (both are at
> present not yet correctly tagged in OSM)

Very nice examples indeed. But they are not very common.

> mapillary.com/map/im/kRr5NPEzjLiwDsHWdAL-aw
> (from left to right in the picture:))
> | oneway single lane road | one-way cycle lane (same direction) | segregated
> cycle-foot-way with one-way bicycle lane in the opposite direction |

Here the kerb is a physical barrier between the opposite directions of
the cycleway, so it must be split into different lines. One direction
is level with the road (it is a cycle lane), the other is physically
separated from the main way (it is a cycle track) and is level with
the sidewalk. There is no sidewalk between the two directions of
cycling, so we must represent that somehow. Fortunately, simply adding
sidewalk=left to the main way and sidewalk=right to the cycle track
does the trick.

Assuming the OSM's lines direction are the same as the viewing
direction of those pictures (whenever oneway=-1 or oneway:bicycle=-1,
one could just reverse the way and use oneway=yes or
oneway:bicycle=yes instead):

1. Main way's line:
- highway=residential/unclassified/tertiary/secondary/primary
- oneway=yes
- oneway:bicycle=yes
- cycleway:left=no
- cycleway:right=lane
- sidewalk=left

2. Combined sidewalk/cycleway's line (case S4 [1]):
- highway=cycleway
- oneway=-1
- foot=designated
- segregated=yes
- sidewalk=right

> mapillary.com/map/im/6Ga2jVWZUd9TNFssCIAb-g
> (from left to right in the picture:)
>
> | separate side walk only for pedestrians (not visible) | oneway cycle lane
> tords the camera | two-lane road with opposite directions |  separate
> cycle-foot-way with segregation |

This changes the tags of the previous case as follows:

1. Main way's line:
- oneway=no
- oneway:bicycle=-1
- cycleway:left=lane
- cycleway:right=no (or nonstandard cycleway:right=separate/sidepath
for clarity)

2. Combined sidewalk/cycleway's line (case S4 [1]):
- oneway=yes

I just noticed that cycleway=sidepath, cycleway:left=sidepath and
cycleway:right=sidepath are much more common than sidewalk=separate.
So it might make more sense to suggest sidewalk=sidepath instead.

[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bicycle

> On 18 January 2018 at 22:02, Fernando Trebien 
> wrote:
>>
>> "Note that a cycle track may alternatively be drawn as a separate way
>> next to the road which is tagged as highway=cycleway. Both methods
>> each have their pros and cons. While adding a single tag to an
>> existing way takes less time and still often describes the cycle track
>> accurately, a separately tagged cycle way is generally more flexible
>> and allows to capture more detail. When mapping a cycle track as its
>> own way, do not use any of the tags described below. "
>>
>> I think this means that, when trying to represent in OSM a road with a
>> parallel cycle track, if the track is mapped as a different line with
>> highway=cycleway, you should not add cycleway=* on the main road's
>> line.
>>
>> Or is it about a road with both a cycle lane AND a parallel cycle
>> track? If it is so, there would be no need to discuss pros and cons of
>> either method (tag on main way vs separate way), one should surely use
>> cycleway=lane on the main way and also map the parallel track as a
>> separate line.
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 3:30 PM, Dave F 
>> wrote:
>> > You've either misread the paragraph or misused the asterisk.
>> >
>> > Roads can have a separate cycle path running parallel to it *and* a
>> > designated cycle lane in the road.
>> >
>> > DaveF
>> >
>> >
>> > On 16/01/2018 19:31, Fernando Trebien wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Second paragraph here:
>> >> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:cycleway#Cycle_tracks
>> >>
>> >> On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 10:39 AM, Dave F 
>> >> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> On 15/01/2018 14:47, Fernando Trebien wrote:
>> 
>>  The wiki also says that, when mapping a parallel cycleway as a
>>  parallel line, one should not use the cycleway=* tag on the motorised
>>  way
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> For clarity, could you confirm which wiki page that is written.
>> >>>
>> >>> DaveF
>> >>>
>> >>> ___
>> >>> Tagging mailing list
>> >>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> >>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Fernando Trebien
>> +55 (51) 9962-5409
>>
>> "Nullius in verba."
>>
>> ___
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>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Sidewalks and cycleways as tags vs as extra lines and StreetComplete

[Dave F]

On 18/01/2018 21:02, Fernando Trebien wrote:

I think this means... if the track is mapped as a different line with
highway=cycleway, you should not add cycleway=* on the main road's
line.



one should surely use cycleway=lane on the main way and also map the parallel 
track as a
separate line.


These two statements contradict each other. The first comment means 'do 
not add cycleway=* to the road under any circumstances'. Your OP should 
have made it clear that a separate cycle track & on road cycle lane are 
not mutually exclusive.


It should of read something like:
"When mapping a separate cycle track do not add the tags for that track 
on the main road."


DaveF



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Re: [Tagging] Sidewalks and cycleways as tags vs as extra lines and StreetComplete

[Volker Schmidt]

Two nice examples of complex cases, which in my view would be best tagged
using the cycleway=lane tag *and* separate foot- and cycle-ways (both are
at present not yet correctly tagged in OSM)


mapillary.com/map/im/kRr5NPEzjLiwDsHWdAL-aw
(from left to right in the picture:))
| oneway single lane road | one-way cycle lane (same direction) |
segregated cycle-foot-way with one-way bicycle lane in the opposite
direction |

mapillary.com/map/im/6Ga2jVWZUd9TNFssCIAb-g
(from left to right in the picture:)
| separate side walk only for pedestrians (not visible) | oneway cycle lane
tords the camera | two-lane road with opposite directions |  separate
cycle-foot-way with segregation |

On 18 January 2018 at 22:02, Fernando Trebien 
wrote:

> "Note that a cycle track may alternatively be drawn as a separate way
> next to the road which is tagged as highway=cycleway. Both methods
> each have their pros and cons. While adding a single tag to an
> existing way takes less time and still often describes the cycle track
> accurately, a separately tagged cycle way is generally more flexible
> and allows to capture more detail. When mapping a cycle track as its
> own way, do not use any of the tags described below. "
>
> I think this means that, when trying to represent in OSM a road with a
> parallel cycle track, if the track is mapped as a different line with
> highway=cycleway, you should not add cycleway=* on the main road's
> line.
>
> Or is it about a road with both a cycle lane AND a parallel cycle
> track? If it is so, there would be no need to discuss pros and cons of
> either method (tag on main way vs separate way), one should surely use
> cycleway=lane on the main way and also map the parallel track as a
> separate line.
>
> On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 3:30 PM, Dave F 
> wrote:
> > You've either misread the paragraph or misused the asterisk.
> >
> > Roads can have a separate cycle path running parallel to it *and* a
> > designated cycle lane in the road.
> >
> > DaveF
> >
> >
> > On 16/01/2018 19:31, Fernando Trebien wrote:
> >>
> >> Second paragraph here:
> >> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:cycleway#Cycle_tracks
> >>
> >> On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 10:39 AM, Dave F 
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> On 15/01/2018 14:47, Fernando Trebien wrote:
> 
>  The wiki also says that, when mapping a parallel cycleway as a
>  parallel line, one should not use the cycleway=* tag on the motorised
>  way
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> For clarity, could you confirm which wiki page that is written.
> >>>
> >>> DaveF
> >>>
> >>> ___
> >>> Tagging mailing list
> >>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> >>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Fernando Trebien
> +55 (51) 9962-5409
>
> "Nullius in verba."
>
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Re: [Tagging] Sidewalks and cycleways as tags vs as extra lines and StreetComplete

[Fernando Trebien]

"Note that a cycle track may alternatively be drawn as a separate way
next to the road which is tagged as highway=cycleway. Both methods
each have their pros and cons. While adding a single tag to an
existing way takes less time and still often describes the cycle track
accurately, a separately tagged cycle way is generally more flexible
and allows to capture more detail. When mapping a cycle track as its
own way, do not use any of the tags described below. "

I think this means that, when trying to represent in OSM a road with a
parallel cycle track, if the track is mapped as a different line with
highway=cycleway, you should not add cycleway=* on the main road's
line.

Or is it about a road with both a cycle lane AND a parallel cycle
track? If it is so, there would be no need to discuss pros and cons of
either method (tag on main way vs separate way), one should surely use
cycleway=lane on the main way and also map the parallel track as a
separate line.

On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 3:30 PM, Dave F  wrote:
> You've either misread the paragraph or misused the asterisk.
>
> Roads can have a separate cycle path running parallel to it *and* a
> designated cycle lane in the road.
>
> DaveF
>
>
> On 16/01/2018 19:31, Fernando Trebien wrote:
>>
>> Second paragraph here:
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:cycleway#Cycle_tracks
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 10:39 AM, Dave F 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 15/01/2018 14:47, Fernando Trebien wrote:

 The wiki also says that, when mapping a parallel cycleway as a
 parallel line, one should not use the cycleway=* tag on the motorised
 way
>>>
>>>
>>> For clarity, could you confirm which wiki page that is written.
>>>
>>> DaveF
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Tagging mailing list
>>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
>>
>>
>



-- 
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"Nullius in verba."

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Re: [Tagging] Sidewalks and cycleways as tags vs as extra lines and StreetComplete

[Dave F]

You've either misread the paragraph or misused the asterisk.

Roads can have a separate cycle path running parallel to it *and* a 
designated cycle lane in the road.


DaveF

On 16/01/2018 19:31, Fernando Trebien wrote:

Second paragraph here:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:cycleway#Cycle_tracks

On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 10:39 AM, Dave F  wrote:

On 15/01/2018 14:47, Fernando Trebien wrote:

The wiki also says that, when mapping a parallel cycleway as a
parallel line, one should not use the cycleway=* tag on the motorised
way


For clarity, could you confirm which wiki page that is written.

DaveF

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Re: [Tagging] Sidewalks and cycleways as tags vs as extra lines and StreetComplete

[Fernando Trebien]

Second paragraph here:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:cycleway#Cycle_tracks

On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 10:39 AM, Dave F  wrote:
>
> On 15/01/2018 14:47, Fernando Trebien wrote:
>>
>> The wiki also says that, when mapping a parallel cycleway as a
>> parallel line, one should not use the cycleway=* tag on the motorised
>> way
>
>
> For clarity, could you confirm which wiki page that is written.
>
> DaveF
>
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Re: [Tagging] Sidewalks and cycleways as tags vs as extra lines and StreetComplete

[Dave F]

On 15/01/2018 14:47, Fernando Trebien wrote:

The wiki also says that, when mapping a parallel cycleway as a
parallel line, one should not use the cycleway=* tag on the motorised
way


For clarity, could you confirm which wiki page that is written.

DaveF

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[Tagging] Sidewalks and cycleways as tags vs as extra lines and StreetComplete

[Fernando Trebien]

Hello,

When mapping sidewalks and cycleways, it is possible to do so as tags
on the line of the motorised way [1][2] or as standalone lines
parallel to it [1][3]. When StreetComplete [4] asks users whether
there is a cycleway in a street, it fills the tags on the main way.
The wiki also says that, when mapping a parallel cycleway as a
parallel line, one should not use the cycleway=* tag on the motorised
way, whereas regarding sidewalks it suggests that sidewalk=separate
could be added to the motorised way. Mappers can also add
bicycle=use_sidepath [5] and foot=use_sidepath [1], though these are
access restrictions, not descriptions of sidewalks and cycleways.

Which brings the question: could we also add cycleway=separate to
express that a cycle track has been mapped separately?

[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Sidewalks#How_to_map
[2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:cycleway#Cycle_tracks
[3] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bicycle#Cycle_tracks
[4] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/StreetComplete/Quests
[5] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:bicycle%3Duse_sidepath

-- 
Fernando Trebien
+55 (51) 9962-5409

"Nullius in verba."

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