Re: [Tagging] Turn Lane Tagging?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Il giorno 12 giu 2016, alle ore 04:11, Brad Neuhauser 
>  ha scritto:
> 
> You mean, the *proposal* on the wiki (that has mainly been edited by one 
> person, and that has not even been voted on) states that "transit" is the key.


actually, being a proposal it is typical that just one person edited the page, 
and even for tag definition I believe that more people editing the page doesn't 
necessarily lead to more consistency or better definitions.

But nonetheless, I agree with you that transition is a better word, and that 
transit has different connotations...

There are some 700-900 occurrences of transit and subkeys in the db, and if we  
change the definition we should decide how to deal with these 

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Turn Lane Tagging?

[Marc Gemis]

The tag proposal is still in draft. Imagic did not like the approval
process too much (as far as I understood)  for this type of tags and
preferred to try out the tag with a small group to see whether it
works before going forward with the approval procedure.
I can't disagree with this. Too many proposal are blocked by people
coming late to the party and you have to repeat all arguments again.

The tag was tried out by some heavy turn:lane taggers in Europe, and I
was one of them.

regards

m

On Sun, Jun 12, 2016 at 10:37 AM, Tijmen Stam  wrote:
> On 12-06-16 04:11, Brad Neuhauser wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, Jun 11, 2016 at 6:25 PM, Tijmen Stam > > wrote:
>>
>> On 2016-06-11 23:11, Tijmen Stam wrote:
>>
>> On 11-06-16 04:16, James Mast wrote:
>>
>> I've been using the "turn:lanes:*=none;slight_right" &
>> "slight_left;none" tags to indicate which side a new
>> lane has been added
>> on a highway when going from 1 to 2 lanes (sometimes
>> "slight_left;slight_right" if the original lane is
>> centered between the
>> two new lanes).  How else are people to properly
>> identify which side the
>> new lane is being added to?
>>
>>
>> NOO!
>>
>> That's what the transit:-tag is for:
>>
>> 
>>
>>
>> On 11-06-16 23:22, Colin Smale wrote:
>> > I assume "transition" is meant, and not "transit"...
>>
>> c) nope, the wiki clearly states the "transit" key and that's what
>> the Lane and road attributes reacts to. I think transition would've
>> been better too.
>>
>>
>> You mean, the *proposal* on the wiki (that has mainly been edited by one
>> person, and that has not even been voted on) states that "transit" is
>> the key. So, in fact now would be a *perfect* time to change the key to
>> something that 1) makes better sense in vernacular English and 2) won't
>> have a chance to be confused with transit in the sense of "public
>> transit" or "mass transit". (note that
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Transit even redirects to
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Public_transport).
>
>
> Hmm, I imagined the tag had been in some kind of widespread use, but
> according to https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys it has some 700 uses, of
> which I estimate about 50-ish are from me (all in the Netherlands). It sees
> heavy use in Belgium, and almost all other use seems to be in Europe.
> It wouldn't be hard to convert them all to a transition:lanes.
>
> Also, the wiki pages on lanes need a cleanup and especially an uncluttering.
>
>
> Tijmen
>
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Re: [Tagging] Turn Lane Tagging?

[Tijmen Stam]

On 12-06-16 04:11, Brad Neuhauser wrote:

On Sat, Jun 11, 2016 at 6:25 PM, Tijmen Stam mailto:mailingli...@iivq.net>> wrote:

On 2016-06-11 23:11, Tijmen Stam wrote:

On 11-06-16 04:16, James Mast wrote:

I've been using the "turn:lanes:*=none;slight_right" &
"slight_left;none" tags to indicate which side a new
lane has been added
on a highway when going from 1 to 2 lanes (sometimes
"slight_left;slight_right" if the original lane is
centered between the
two new lanes).  How else are people to properly
identify which side the
new lane is being added to?


NOO!

That's what the transit:-tag is for:



On 11-06-16 23:22, Colin Smale wrote:
> I assume "transition" is meant, and not "transit"...

c) nope, the wiki clearly states the "transit" key and that's what
the Lane and road attributes reacts to. I think transition would've
been better too.


You mean, the *proposal* on the wiki (that has mainly been edited by one
person, and that has not even been voted on) states that "transit" is
the key. So, in fact now would be a *perfect* time to change the key to
something that 1) makes better sense in vernacular English and 2) won't
have a chance to be confused with transit in the sense of "public
transit" or "mass transit". (note that
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Transit even redirects to
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Public_transport).


Hmm, I imagined the tag had been in some kind of widespread use, but 
according to https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys it has some 700 
uses, of which I estimate about 50-ish are from me (all in the 
Netherlands). It sees heavy use in Belgium, and almost all other use 
seems to be in Europe.

It wouldn't be hard to convert them all to a transition:lanes.

Also, the wiki pages on lanes need a cleanup and especially an uncluttering.

Tijmen

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Re: [Tagging] Turn Lane Tagging?

[Brad Neuhauser]

On Sat, Jun 11, 2016 at 6:25 PM, Tijmen Stam  wrote:

> On 2016-06-11 23:11, Tijmen Stam wrote:
>>
>> On 11-06-16 04:16, James Mast wrote:
>>>
 I've been using the "turn:lanes:*=none;slight_right" &
 "slight_left;none" tags to indicate which side a new lane has been added
 on a highway when going from 1 to 2 lanes (sometimes
 "slight_left;slight_right" if the original lane is centered between the
 two new lanes).  How else are people to properly identify which side the
 new lane is being added to?

>>>
>>> NOO!
>>>
>>> That's what the transit:-tag is for:
>>> 
>>>
>>
> On 11-06-16 23:22, Colin Smale wrote:
> > I assume "transition" is meant, and not "transit"...
>


> c) nope, the wiki clearly states the "transit" key and that's what the
> Lane and road attributes reacts to. I think transition would've been better
> too.
>

You mean, the *proposal* on the wiki (that has mainly been edited by one
person, and that has not even been voted on) states that "transit" is the
key. So, in fact now would be a *perfect* time to change the key to
something that 1) makes better sense in vernacular English and 2) won't
have a chance to be confused with transit in the sense of "public transit"
or "mass transit". (note that https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Transit
even redirects to https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Public_transport).
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Re: [Tagging] Turn Lane Tagging?

[Tijmen Stam]

On 2016-06-11 23:11, Tijmen Stam wrote:


On 11-06-16 04:16, James Mast wrote:

I've been using the "turn:lanes:*=none;slight_right" &
"slight_left;none" tags to indicate which side a new lane has been added
on a highway when going from 1 to 2 lanes (sometimes
"slight_left;slight_right" if the original lane is centered between the
two new lanes).  How else are people to properly identify which side the
new lane is being added to?


NOO!

That's what the transit:-tag is for:



On 11-06-16 23:22, Colin Smale wrote:
> I assume "transition" is meant, and not "transit"...

a) can you reply _under_ other people's texts? I've moved it for you. 
That way, you can read a discussion in a natural order.
b) can you stop sending mails to both me ánd the mailinglist? It messes 
up my threads view.
c) nope, the wiki clearly states the "transit" key and that's what the 
Lane and road attributes reacts to. I think transition would've been 
better too.


Greetings,
Tijmen

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Re: [Tagging] Turn Lane Tagging?

[Colin Smale]

I assume "transition" is meant, and not "transit"...

On 2016-06-11 23:11, Tijmen Stam wrote:

> On 11-06-16 04:16, James Mast wrote: 
> 
>> I've been using the "turn:lanes:*=none;slight_right" &
>> "slight_left;none" tags to indicate which side a new lane has been added
>> on a highway when going from 1 to 2 lanes (sometimes
>> "slight_left;slight_right" if the original lane is centered between the
>> two new lanes).  How else are people to properly identify which side the
>> new lane is being added to?
> 
> NOO!
> 
> That's what the transit:-tag is for: 
> 
> 
> All lanes and road attributes that I know of are neatly summed up - not on 
> the OSM wiki but the JOSM wiki: 
> . From 
> there links point to the OSM wiki.
> 
> Take a look at this way ( 
> 
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/419799887 ) and take a look at the
>> Bing imagery and look at the 'turn:lanes:forward' tag, and you'll see
>> how this can, and would be valid.
> 
> The way I see it, the only "turn:lane" markers that signify a lane change is 
> merge_with_left/merge_with_right. All the others signify that you can choose 
> between different ways!
> 
> The way I think this should be tagged is:
> no turn:lanes
> transit:lanes:forward=continue;new_on_left
> (the continue is optional in this case).
> 
> See for example Way 415775038
> Which has one lane, but the next segment has two lanes (one through lane and 
> a right turn lane)
> "transit:lanes"="continue;new_on_right"
> (Note that this is not a good example: the Bing image isn't current and the 
> lane will be changed next monday, so I'll probably update it tuesday evening)
> 
> It's allowing the router to know that 
> 
>> a new lane is being added when combined with the next way (
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/419799886 ) which has the
>> "lanes:forward=2" tag.  It also allows the routers to properly tell
>> people to get in the left lane if just ahead, there's a left turn they
>> need to make.
> 
> OSMand already does that with proper turn:lanes. It gives a preannouncement 
> of which lanes you should go to:
> 
> (The arrows are yellow before you are on the way, and green if you are on the 
> way that has the turn:lanes)
> 
> As far as I know, OSMand doesn't use transit:lanes.
> BTW, the "Lanes and road attribute" mappaint style doesn't use the 
> transit:lanes for rendering, but it does a check on them, giving a warning if 
> an incorrect transit:lanes is used.
> 
> Tijmen
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Turn Lane Tagging?

[Tijmen Stam]

On 11-06-16 04:16, James Mast wrote:

I've been using the "turn:lanes:*=none;slight_right" &
"slight_left;none" tags to indicate which side a new lane has been added
on a highway when going from 1 to 2 lanes (sometimes
"slight_left;slight_right" if the original lane is centered between the
two new lanes).  How else are people to properly identify which side the
new lane is being added to?


NOO!

That's what the transit:-tag is for: 



All lanes and road attributes that I know of are neatly summed up - not 
on the OSM wiki but the JOSM wiki: 
. 
From there links point to the OSM wiki.


Take a look at this way (

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/419799887 ) and take a look at the
Bing imagery and look at the 'turn:lanes:forward' tag, and you'll see
how this can, and would be valid.


The way I see it, the only "turn:lane" markers that signify a lane 
change is merge_with_left/merge_with_right. All the others signify that 
you can choose between different ways!


The way I think this should be tagged is:
no turn:lanes
transit:lanes:forward=continue;new_on_left
(the continue is optional in this case).

See for example Way 415775038
Which has one lane, but the next segment has two lanes (one through lane 
and a right turn lane)

"transit:lanes"="continue;new_on_right"
(Note that this is not a good example: the Bing image isn't current and 
the lane will be changed next monday, so I'll probably update it tuesday 
evening)


It's allowing the router to know that

a new lane is being added when combined with the next way (
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/419799886 ) which has the
"lanes:forward=2" tag.  It also allows the routers to properly tell
people to get in the left lane if just ahead, there's a left turn they
need to make.


OSMand already does that with proper turn:lanes. It gives a 
preannouncement of which lanes you should go to:


(The arrows are yellow before you are on the way, and green if you are 
on the way that has the turn:lanes)


As far as I know, OSMand doesn't use transit:lanes.
BTW, the "Lanes and road attribute" mappaint style doesn't use the 
transit:lanes for rendering, but it does a check on them, giving a 
warning if an incorrect transit:lanes is used.


Tijmen

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Re: [Tagging] Turn Lane Tagging?

[Bryan Housel]

My confusion was specifically about the use of `none` as part of a multiple 
lane indicator - like `none;left`or `none;right`.
`none` by itself is well documented and clear.

Thanks, Bryan



> On Jun 11, 2016, at 3:28 PM, Johan C  wrote:
> 
> In that case they also missed the examples on the same page :-)
> 
> Op 11 jun. 2016 20:04 schreef "Mike N"  >:
> On 6/11/2016 12:00 PM, Johan C wrote:
> I completely agree with Marc. Using none as a value in case no turn
> indication is present is valid, using || isn't. See the values of the
> turn:lanes key on this page:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:turn:lanes 
>  for reference.
> 
>   And I just realized that the editors may have interpreted the word 'none' 
> as nothing/blank (no text required).
> 
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Turn Lane Tagging?

[Johan C]

In that case they also missed the examples on the same page :-)
Op 11 jun. 2016 20:04 schreef "Mike N" :

> On 6/11/2016 12:00 PM, Johan C wrote:
>
>> I completely agree with Marc. Using none as a value in case no turn
>> indication is present is valid, using || isn't. See the values of the
>> turn:lanes key on this page:
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:turn:lanes for reference.
>>
>
>   And I just realized that the editors may have interpreted the word
> 'none' as nothing/blank (no text required).
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Turn Lane Tagging?

[Mike N]

On 6/11/2016 12:00 PM, Johan C wrote:

I completely agree with Marc. Using none as a value in case no turn
indication is present is valid, using || isn't. See the values of the
turn:lanes key on this page:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:turn:lanes for reference.


  And I just realized that the editors may have interpreted the word 
'none' as nothing/blank (no text required).



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Re: [Tagging] Turn Lane Tagging?

[Mike N]

On 6/11/2016 12:00 PM, Johan C wrote:

I completely agree with Marc. Using none as a value in case no turn
indication is present is valid, using || isn't. See the values of the
turn:lanes key on this page:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:turn:lanes for reference.



  Thanks for the confirmation - I thought I had missed something. 
I'll comment directly on the relevant changesets now.





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Re: [Tagging] Turn Lane Tagging?

[Johan C]

I completely agree with Marc. Using none as a value in case no turn
indication is present is valid, using || isn't. See the values of the
turn:lanes key on this page:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:turn:lanes for reference.

Cheers, Johan



2016-06-11 7:44 GMT+02:00 Marc Gemis :

> I must admit I have never seen none;slight_right in any of the lane
> tagging.
> None is only used in cases where there are no arrows on the ground for
> that particular lane. Furthermore empty is also not a valid value.
> Empty is only valid in e.g. maxspeed:lanes to indicate that the lane
> has the default value set by maxspeed. Since there is no default
> defined for turn:lanes, one has to specify a value for each lane.
>
> Please take a look at
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Dex2000#zeitliche_Auswertungen_Overpass-turbo-abfragen
> It contains several OverPass queries for the validation of turn:lanes
> (the page is in german, but search for turn:lanes)
> Those queries were used by the German community for their week
> assignment on turn:lane mapping.
>
> In order to express that 1 lane becomes 2 lanes, one could use the
> proposal http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/transit,
> unfortunately imagic is no longer active on OpenStreetMap.
>
> regards
>
> m ( a heavy lane mapper from Belgium).
>
> On Sat, Jun 11, 2016 at 6:00 AM, Bryan Housel 
> wrote:
> > Thanks James for the explanation, it does make sense now. I hope I wasn’t
> > the only person confused to see that tag..
> >
> > I appreciate all the work that you’ve put into adding lane details OSM.
> My
> > goal is to make lane tagging easy for everyone.
> >
> > That said, I think you might be the only person in the world tagging turn
> > lanes with `none;something`.  I checked taginfo and it seems like for
> value
> > combinations like `left;none` there are around 5 in the world.  Yes, that
> > count is off because Mapbox data team deleted some of yours and they
> > shouldn’t have, and it’s great that they apologized, but still we are
> > talking about something that looks kind of like an error and hasn’t been
> > discussed anywhere that I can find.
> >
> > For what it’s worth, I have also seen a few people suggest tagging like
> > `width:lanes:start = 4|0`  `width:lanes:end = 4|4` (e.g. in meters) to
> > describe the shape of that segment of road that widens into the turn
> lanes.
> > Taginfo also suggests that this is used like 10 times in the whole world,
> > and I also haven’t found it discussed anywhere.
> >
> > Maybe this is a situation where the tagging list can discuss and come to
> > consensus and do the whole wiki proposal voting thing?
> >
> > We still have several months before the turn lane tagging will be
> available
> > in iD, so there is plenty of time to work out these details.  In the
> worst
> > case, we just won’t support it, and instead show a ‘?’ in the interface
> to
> > indicate that there is some unrecognized tag in that lane and we will
> leave
> > it alone.
> >
> > Thanks, Bryan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Jun 10, 2016, at 10:16 PM, James Mast 
> wrote:
> >
> > I've been using the "turn:lanes:*=none;slight_right" & "slight_left;none"
> > tags to indicate which side a new lane has been added on a highway when
> > going from 1 to 2 lanes (sometimes "slight_left;slight_right" if the
> > original lane is centered between the two new lanes).  How else are
> people
> > to properly identify which side the new lane is being added to?  Take a
> look
> > at this way ( https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/419799887 ) and take a
> look
> > at the Bing imagery and look at the 'turn:lanes:forward' tag, and you'll
> see
> > how this can, and would be valid.  It's allowing the router to know that
> a
> > new lane is being added when combined with the next way
> > (https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/419799886 ) which has the
> > "lanes:forward=2" tag.  It also allows the routers to properly tell
> people
> > to get in the left lane if just ahead, there's a left turn they need to
> > make.
> >
> > 
> > From: Tod Fitch 
> > Sent: Friday, June 10, 2016 9:45:56 PM
> > To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
> > Subject: Re: [Tagging] Turn Lane Tagging?
> >
> > I haven’t seen “none;slight_right” as a value and am not sure how that
> > should look different than “slight_right” by itself. However “none” is a
> > value listed in the wiki [1] and I use it a 

Re: [Tagging] Turn Lane Tagging?

[Marc Gemis]

I must admit I have never seen none;slight_right in any of the lane tagging.
None is only used in cases where there are no arrows on the ground for
that particular lane. Furthermore empty is also not a valid value.
Empty is only valid in e.g. maxspeed:lanes to indicate that the lane
has the default value set by maxspeed. Since there is no default
defined for turn:lanes, one has to specify a value for each lane.

Please take a look at
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Dex2000#zeitliche_Auswertungen_Overpass-turbo-abfragen
It contains several OverPass queries for the validation of turn:lanes
(the page is in german, but search for turn:lanes)
Those queries were used by the German community for their week
assignment on turn:lane mapping.

In order to express that 1 lane becomes 2 lanes, one could use the
proposal http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/transit,
unfortunately imagic is no longer active on OpenStreetMap.

regards

m ( a heavy lane mapper from Belgium).

On Sat, Jun 11, 2016 at 6:00 AM, Bryan Housel  wrote:
> Thanks James for the explanation, it does make sense now. I hope I wasn’t
> the only person confused to see that tag..
>
> I appreciate all the work that you’ve put into adding lane details OSM.  My
> goal is to make lane tagging easy for everyone.
>
> That said, I think you might be the only person in the world tagging turn
> lanes with `none;something`.  I checked taginfo and it seems like for value
> combinations like `left;none` there are around 5 in the world.  Yes, that
> count is off because Mapbox data team deleted some of yours and they
> shouldn’t have, and it’s great that they apologized, but still we are
> talking about something that looks kind of like an error and hasn’t been
> discussed anywhere that I can find.
>
> For what it’s worth, I have also seen a few people suggest tagging like
> `width:lanes:start = 4|0`  `width:lanes:end = 4|4` (e.g. in meters) to
> describe the shape of that segment of road that widens into the turn lanes.
> Taginfo also suggests that this is used like 10 times in the whole world,
> and I also haven’t found it discussed anywhere.
>
> Maybe this is a situation where the tagging list can discuss and come to
> consensus and do the whole wiki proposal voting thing?
>
> We still have several months before the turn lane tagging will be available
> in iD, so there is plenty of time to work out these details.  In the worst
> case, we just won’t support it, and instead show a ‘?’ in the interface to
> indicate that there is some unrecognized tag in that lane and we will leave
> it alone.
>
> Thanks, Bryan
>
>
>
>
> On Jun 10, 2016, at 10:16 PM, James Mast  wrote:
>
> I've been using the "turn:lanes:*=none;slight_right" & "slight_left;none"
> tags to indicate which side a new lane has been added on a highway when
> going from 1 to 2 lanes (sometimes "slight_left;slight_right" if the
> original lane is centered between the two new lanes).  How else are people
> to properly identify which side the new lane is being added to?  Take a look
> at this way ( https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/419799887 ) and take a look
> at the Bing imagery and look at the 'turn:lanes:forward' tag, and you'll see
> how this can, and would be valid.  It's allowing the router to know that a
> new lane is being added when combined with the next way
> (https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/419799886 ) which has the
> "lanes:forward=2" tag.  It also allows the routers to properly tell people
> to get in the left lane if just ahead, there's a left turn they need to
> make.
>
> 
> From: Tod Fitch 
> Sent: Friday, June 10, 2016 9:45:56 PM
> To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Turn Lane Tagging?
>
> I haven’t seen “none;slight_right” as a value and am not sure how that
> should look different than “slight_right” by itself. However “none” is a
> value listed in the wiki [1] and I use it a lot as I find multiple vertical
> bars hard to manually count/edit but I can see and count things like
> “left|none|none” easier than “left||” when editing in JOSM.
>
> [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:turn#Turning_indications
>
> -Tod
>
>
> On Jun 10, 2016, at 6:07 PM, Bryan Housel  wrote:
>
> Hey James,
>
> (Disclaimer:  I work for Mapbox, but I am not part of the team that is doing
> the lane tagging, and can’t speak for them).
>
> I do need to know more about your concern:   Is `none` as part of a multiple
> turn lane option documented anywhere?
>
> I’m asking because we are adding turn lane tagging to iD this summer [1], so
> I have been thinking a lot about turn lanes, and I have read through a lo

Re: [Tagging] Turn Lane Tagging?

[Bryan Housel]

Thanks James for the explanation, it does make sense now. I hope I wasn’t the 
only person confused to see that tag..  

I appreciate all the work that you’ve put into adding lane details OSM.  My 
goal is to make lane tagging easy for everyone.  

That said, I think you might be the only person in the world tagging turn lanes 
with `none;something`.  I checked taginfo and it seems like for value 
combinations like `left;none` there are around 5 in the world.  Yes, that count 
is off because Mapbox data team deleted some of yours and they shouldn’t have, 
and it’s great that they apologized, but still we are talking about something 
that looks kind of like an error and hasn’t been discussed anywhere that I can 
find.

For what it’s worth, I have also seen a few people suggest tagging like 
`width:lanes:start = 4|0`  `width:lanes:end = 4|4` (e.g. in meters) to describe 
the shape of that segment of road that widens into the turn lanes. Taginfo also 
suggests that this is used like 10 times in the whole world, and I also haven’t 
found it discussed anywhere.

Maybe this is a situation where the tagging list can discuss and come to 
consensus and do the whole wiki proposal voting thing?

We still have several months before the turn lane tagging will be available in 
iD, so there is plenty of time to work out these details.  In the worst case, 
we just won’t support it, and instead show a ‘?’ in the interface to indicate 
that there is some unrecognized tag in that lane and we will leave it alone.

Thanks, Bryan




> On Jun 10, 2016, at 10:16 PM, James Mast  wrote:
> 
> I've been using the "turn:lanes:*=none;slight_right" & "slight_left;none" 
> tags to indicate which side a new lane has been added on a highway when going 
> from 1 to 2 lanes (sometimes "slight_left;slight_right" if the original lane 
> is centered between the two new lanes).  How else are people to properly 
> identify which side the new lane is being added to?  Take a look at this way 
> ( https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/419799887 
> <https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/419799887> ) and take a look at the Bing 
> imagery and look at the 'turn:lanes:forward' tag, and you'll see how this 
> can, and would be valid.  It's allowing the router to know that a new lane is 
> being added when combined with the next way 
> (https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/419799886 
> <https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/419799886> ) which has the 
> "lanes:forward=2" tag.  It also allows the routers to properly tell people to 
> get in the left lane if just ahead, there's a left turn they need to make.
> 
> From: Tod Fitch 
> Sent: Friday, June 10, 2016 9:45:56 PM
> To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Turn Lane Tagging?
>  
> I haven’t seen “none;slight_right” as a value and am not sure how that should 
> look different than “slight_right” by itself. However “none” is a value 
> listed in the wiki [1] and I use it a lot as I find multiple vertical bars 
> hard to manually count/edit but I can see and count things like 
> “left|none|none” easier than “left||” when editing in JOSM.
> 
> [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:turn#Turning_indications 
> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:turn#Turning_indications>
> 
> -Tod
> 
> 
>> On Jun 10, 2016, at 6:07 PM, Bryan Housel > <mailto:br...@7thposition.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hey James,
>> 
>> (Disclaimer:  I work for Mapbox, but I am not part of the team that is doing 
>> the lane tagging, and can’t speak for them).
>> 
>> I do need to know more about your concern:   Is `none` as part of a multiple 
>> turn lane option documented anywhere? 
>> 
>> I’m asking because we are adding turn lane tagging to iD this summer [1], so 
>> I have been thinking a lot about turn lanes, and I have read through a lot 
>> of wiki pages and discussion pages, and this is the first I’ve seen anybody 
>> using a tag like `turn:lanes:backward=none;slight_right`.
>> 
>> It’s really important to me that I get this as correct as possible, because 
>> I can’t have iD overwriting somebody’s valid lane tagging.  I’d like to be 
>> able to show visually what a tag like `none;slight_right` means on the 
>> ground.
>> 
>> Thanks, Bryan
>> 
>> 
>> [1] https://www.mapbox.com/blog/osm-gsoc-id/ 
>> <https://www.mapbox.com/blog/osm-gsoc-id/>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jun 10, 2016, at 7:45 PM, James Mast >> <mailto:rickmastfa...@hotmail.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I honestly think Mapbox needs to stop immediately editing ways that they 
>>> think are invalid.  I've seen several ways 

Re: [Tagging] Turn Lane Tagging?

[James Mast]

I've been using the "turn:lanes:*=none;slight_right" & "slight_left;none" tags 
to indicate which side a new lane has been added on a highway when going from 1 
to 2 lanes (sometimes "slight_left;slight_right" if the original lane is 
centered between the two new lanes).  How else are people to properly identify 
which side the new lane is being added to?  Take a look at this way ( 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/419799887 ) and take a look at the Bing 
imagery and look at the 'turn:lanes:forward' tag, and you'll see how this can, 
and would be valid.  It's allowing the router to know that a new lane is being 
added when combined with the next way ( 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/419799886 ) which has the "lanes:forward=2" 
tag.  It also allows the routers to properly tell people to get in the left 
lane if just ahead, there's a left turn they need to make.



-James

[http://www.openstreetmap.org/assets/osm_logo_256-835a859acf0d378e1d14e88b15e7b4b95211ccd41a2c061b1629cfbbb8deb697.png]<https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/419799886>

OpenStreetMap | Way: ?Washington Avenue? 
(?419799886?)<https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/419799886>
www.openstreetmap.org
OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use 
under an open license.




From: Tod Fitch 
Sent: Friday, June 10, 2016 9:45:56 PM
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Turn Lane Tagging?

I haven't seen "none;slight_right" as a value and am not sure how that should 
look different than "slight_right" by itself. However "none" is a value listed 
in the wiki [1] and I use it a lot as I find multiple vertical bars hard to 
manually count/edit but I can see and count things like "left|none|none" easier 
than "left||" when editing in JOSM.

[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:turn#Turning_indications

-Tod


On Jun 10, 2016, at 6:07 PM, Bryan Housel 
mailto:br...@7thposition.com>> wrote:

Hey James,

(Disclaimer:  I work for Mapbox, but I am not part of the team that is doing 
the lane tagging, and can't speak for them).

I do need to know more about your concern:   Is `none` as part of a multiple 
turn lane option documented anywhere?

I'm asking because we are adding turn lane tagging to iD this summer [1], so I 
have been thinking a lot about turn lanes, and I have read through a lot of 
wiki pages and discussion pages, and this is the first I've seen anybody using 
a tag like `turn:lanes:backward=none;slight_right`.

It's really important to me that I get this as correct as possible, because I 
can't have iD overwriting somebody's valid lane tagging.  I'd like to be able 
to show visually what a tag like `none;slight_right` means on the ground.

Thanks, Bryan


[1] https://www.mapbox.com/blog/osm-gsoc-id/




On Jun 10, 2016, at 7:45 PM, James Mast 
mailto:rickmastfa...@hotmail.com>> wrote:

I honestly think Mapbox needs to stop immediately editing ways that they think 
are invalid.  I've seen several ways that I've work hard on, know are valid, 
and are being damaged by edits.  The 'NONE' tag in turn lanes is COMPLETELY 
VALID
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/rickmastfan67/diary/38833

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Re: [Tagging] Turn Lane Tagging?

[Tod Fitch]

I haven’t seen “none;slight_right” as a value and am not sure how that should 
look different than “slight_right” by itself. However “none” is a value listed 
in the wiki [1] and I use it a lot as I find multiple vertical bars hard to 
manually count/edit but I can see and count things like “left|none|none” easier 
than “left||” when editing in JOSM.

[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:turn#Turning_indications

-Tod


> On Jun 10, 2016, at 6:07 PM, Bryan Housel  wrote:
> 
> Hey James,
> 
> (Disclaimer:  I work for Mapbox, but I am not part of the team that is doing 
> the lane tagging, and can’t speak for them).
> 
> I do need to know more about your concern:   Is `none` as part of a multiple 
> turn lane option documented anywhere? 
> 
> I’m asking because we are adding turn lane tagging to iD this summer [1], so 
> I have been thinking a lot about turn lanes, and I have read through a lot of 
> wiki pages and discussion pages, and this is the first I’ve seen anybody 
> using a tag like `turn:lanes:backward=none;slight_right`.
> 
> It’s really important to me that I get this as correct as possible, because I 
> can’t have iD overwriting somebody’s valid lane tagging.  I’d like to be able 
> to show visually what a tag like `none;slight_right` means on the ground.
> 
> Thanks, Bryan
> 
> 
> [1] https://www.mapbox.com/blog/osm-gsoc-id/ 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Jun 10, 2016, at 7:45 PM, James Mast > > wrote:
>> 
>> I honestly think Mapbox needs to stop immediately editing ways that they 
>> think are invalid.  I've seen several ways that I've work hard on, know are 
>> valid, and are being damaged by edits.  The 'NONE' tag in turn lanes is 
>> COMPLETELY VALID
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/rickmastfan67/diary/38833 
>> 
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Re: [Tagging] Turn Lane Tagging?

[Bryan Housel]

Hey James,

(Disclaimer:  I work for Mapbox, but I am not part of the team that is doing 
the lane tagging, and can’t speak for them).

I do need to know more about your concern:   Is `none` as part of a multiple 
turn lane option documented anywhere? 

I’m asking because we are adding turn lane tagging to iD this summer [1], so I 
have been thinking a lot about turn lanes, and I have read through a lot of 
wiki pages and discussion pages, and this is the first I’ve seen anybody using 
a tag like `turn:lanes:backward=none;slight_right`.

It’s really important to me that I get this as correct as possible, because I 
can’t have iD overwriting somebody’s valid lane tagging.  I’d like to be able 
to show visually what a tag like `none;slight_right` means on the ground.

Thanks, Bryan


[1] https://www.mapbox.com/blog/osm-gsoc-id/ 





> On Jun 10, 2016, at 7:45 PM, James Mast  wrote:
> 
> I honestly think Mapbox needs to stop immediately editing ways that they 
> think are invalid.  I've seen several ways that I've work hard on, know are 
> valid, and are being damaged by edits.  The 'NONE' tag in turn lanes is 
> COMPLETELY VALID
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/rickmastfan67/diary/38833 
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Turn Lane Tagging?

[Rubén López Mendoza]

Hi Mike

We are working in a big effort to add turnlanes in 30 cities in USA,
https://github.com/mapbox/mapping/issues/180, and fix the invalid turn
lanes is part of this project.


That was a mistake, it was made using the satellite image , but we know the
local knowledge is more important, we've reverted the change
http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/39943975, for the next we will be
more carefully on same situation.

Thanks for reporting this issue,
Ruben

2016-06-10 17:32 GMT-05:00 Mike N :

>
> This is on the way http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/316565385
>
> On 6/10/2016 5:18 PM, Rubén López Mendoza wrote:
>
>> Hey Mikel,
>> can you send  the exact place where did you find the change?
>>
>> We are working fixing the invalid turn lanes.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Ruben
>>
>> 2016-06-10 16:00 GMT-05:00 Mike N > >:
>>
>>
>> I'm seeing a number of turn lane tagging fixes referencing
>> http://osmlab.github.io/to-fix/#/admin/invalidturnlanes and making
>> fixes such as
>>
>> before:
>>lanes=4
>>oneway=yes
>> turn:lanes =left|through|through;right
>>
>> after:
>>lanes=4
>>oneway=yes
>>left|||
>>
>>  The wiki at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:turn:lanes
>> doesn't seem to match.   Is this new, and where is it documented?
>>
>>  Thanks,
>>
>>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Turn Lane Tagging?

[James Mast]

I honestly think Mapbox needs to stop immediately editing ways that they think 
are invalid.  I've seen several ways that I've work hard on, know are valid, 
and are being damaged by edits.  The 'NONE' tag in turn lanes is COMPLETELY 
VALID

https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/rickmastfan67/diary/38833

[http://www.openstreetmap.org/assets/osm_logo_256-835a859acf0d378e1d14e88b15e7b4b95211ccd41a2c061b1629cfbbb8deb697.png]<https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/rickmastfan67/diary/38833>

OpenStreetMap | rickmastfan67's diary | Gotta love people who don't look at the 
satillte imagery and ajacent ways and think that turn lanes need to be fixed. 
:/<https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/rickmastfan67/diary/38833>
www.openstreetmap.org
OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use 
under an open license.


Here's just a few examples where the 'none' tag is COMPLETELY VALID to describe 
brand new lanes starting.  However, the Mapbox editors are ripping it out and 
turning the lane info into something completely invalid.

[http://www.openstreetmap.org/assets/osm_logo_256-835a859acf0d378e1d14e88b15e7b4b95211ccd41a2c061b1629cfbbb8deb697.png]<https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/39935935>

OpenStreetMap | Changeset: 
39935935<https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/39935935>
www.openstreetmap.org
OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use 
under an open license.


https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/39934184 & 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/39935935 & 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/39937801

[http://www.openstreetmap.org/assets/osm_logo_256-835a859acf0d378e1d14e88b15e7b4b95211ccd41a2c061b1629cfbbb8deb697.png]<https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/39937801>

OpenStreetMap | Changeset: 
39937801<https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/39937801>
www.openstreetmap.org
OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use 
under an open license.



Those are just 3 examples of ways I edited that have been damaged by not paying 
attention to adjacent ways.

[http://www.openstreetmap.org/assets/osm_logo_256-835a859acf0d378e1d14e88b15e7b4b95211ccd41a2c061b1629cfbbb8deb697.png]<https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/39934184>

OpenStreetMap | Changeset: 
39934184<https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/39934184>
www.openstreetmap.org
OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use 
under an open license.



____
From: Mike N 
Sent: Friday, June 10, 2016 6:32:49 PM
To: tagging@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Turn Lane Tagging?


This is on the way http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/316565385

On 6/10/2016 5:18 PM, Rubén López Mendoza wrote:
> Hey Mikel,
> can you send  the exact place where did you find the change?
>
> We are working fixing the invalid turn lanes.
>
> Thanks,
> Ruben
>
> 2016-06-10 16:00 GMT-05:00 Mike N  <mailto:nice...@att.net>>:
>
>
> I'm seeing a number of turn lane tagging fixes referencing
> http://osmlab.github.io/to-fix/#/admin/invalidturnlanes and making
> fixes such as
>
> before:
>lanes=4
>oneway=yes
> turn:lanes =left|through|through;right
>
> after:
>lanes=4
>oneway=yes
>left|||
>
>  The wiki at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:turn:lanes
> doesn't seem to match.   Is this new, and where is it documented?
>
>  Thanks,
>


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Re: [Tagging] Turn Lane Tagging?

[Mike N]

This is on the way http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/316565385

On 6/10/2016 5:18 PM, Rubén López Mendoza wrote:

Hey Mikel,
can you send  the exact place where did you find the change?

We are working fixing the invalid turn lanes.

Thanks,
Ruben

2016-06-10 16:00 GMT-05:00 Mike N mailto:nice...@att.net>>:


I'm seeing a number of turn lane tagging fixes referencing
http://osmlab.github.io/to-fix/#/admin/invalidturnlanes and making
fixes such as

before:
   lanes=4
   oneway=yes
turn:lanes =left|through|through;right

after:
   lanes=4
   oneway=yes
   left|||

 The wiki at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:turn:lanes
doesn't seem to match.   Is this new, and where is it documented?

 Thanks,




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Re: [Tagging] Turn Lane Tagging?

[Rubén López Mendoza]

Hey Mikel,
can you send  the exact place where did you find the change?

We are working fixing the invalid turn lanes.

Thanks,
Ruben

2016-06-10 16:00 GMT-05:00 Mike N :

>
> I'm seeing a number of turn lane tagging fixes referencing
> http://osmlab.github.io/to-fix/#/admin/invalidturnlanes and making fixes
> such as
>
> before:
>lanes=4
>oneway=yes
> turn:lanes =left|through|through;right
>
> after:
>lanes=4
>oneway=yes
>left|||
>
>  The wiki at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:turn:lanes doesn't
> seem to match.   Is this new, and where is it documented?
>
>  Thanks,
>
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[Tagging] Turn Lane Tagging?

[Mike N]

I'm seeing a number of turn lane tagging fixes referencing 
http://osmlab.github.io/to-fix/#/admin/invalidturnlanes and making fixes 
such as


before:
   lanes=4
   oneway=yes
turn:lanes =left|through|through;right

after:
   lanes=4
   oneway=yes
   left|||

 The wiki at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:turn:lanes doesn't 
seem to match.   Is this new, and where is it documented?


 Thanks,

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Re: [Tagging] Turn lane tagging

[fly]

Am 20.07.2014 00:53, schrieb Mike N:
> On 5/19/2014 3:34 PM, Tod Fitch wrote:
>> For what it is worth, I've attempted to tag the intersections
>> athttp://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/37.42584/-122.19230 
>> andhttp://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/37.42432/-122.19177  per the
>> wiki but don't know if I've done it correctly.
> 
> Thanks to the excellent suggestion from Marc Gemis to use JOSM's Lane &
> Road Attributes style[1], I took a quick look.   One of them is
> questionable: the style sensed some possible extra unspecified lanes:
> 
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/282937698
> 
> lanes=5, and turn:lanes:forward covers 5 lanes, but oneway=yes has not
> been specified.   So it should either be oneway, or there are some
> additional lanes in the other direction - possibly a lanes:forward and
> lanes:backward specification.

Yes, the style is right, either oneway is missing or the value for
either lanes=* or turn:lanes:forward=* is wrong.

If it is an oneway road you do not need forward/backward anyway.

Cheers fly


> [1] https://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/Styles/Lane_and_Road_Attributes


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Re: [Tagging] Turn lane tagging

[Mike N]

On 5/19/2014 3:34 PM, Tod Fitch wrote:

For what it is worth, I've attempted to tag the intersections 
athttp://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/37.42584/-122.19230  
andhttp://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/37.42432/-122.19177  per the wiki but 
don't know if I've done it correctly.


Thanks to the excellent suggestion from Marc Gemis to use JOSM's Lane & 
Road Attributes style[1], I took a quick look.   One of them is 
questionable: the style sensed some possible extra unspecified lanes:


http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/282937698

lanes=5, and turn:lanes:forward covers 5 lanes, but oneway=yes has not 
been specified.   So it should either be oneway, or there are some 
additional lanes in the other direction - possibly a lanes:forward and 
lanes:backward specification.




[1] https://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/Styles/Lane_and_Road_Attributes


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Re: [Tagging] Turn lane tagging

[Marc Gemis]

should have been: big thank you


On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 5:22 AM, Marc Gemis  wrote:

> I use the style
> https://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/Styles/Lane_and_Road_Attributes for
> the same "project" as you. It's very powerful and I think the author
> deserves a big think you.
>
> regards
>
> m
>
>
> On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 9:34 PM, Tod Fitch  wrote:
>
>> None of the area I am in has had turn lanes tagged per
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:turn#Turning_indications_per_laneor 
>> destinations set per
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:destination:lanes#Destinations_per_lane
>>
>> When I start doing new tagging, I like to find existing tools that
>> display and/or check the tagging to see if I am doing the "new to me"
>> tagging properly. But I haven't found a map that renders lanes or even
>> width of way based on lane count much less turn lanes. Nor have I found a
>> tool like those at the ITO site to check such tagging.
>>
>> The turn lane plug-in for JOSM seems to be the only thing that will
>> render and to a certain extent validate the tagging. But I'd like a bit
>> more feedback that I am doing things correctly.
>>
>> Can someone point me to a tool or renderer that checks/displays things
>> like lane count, turn lanes, etc.?
>>
>> For what it is worth, I've attempted to tag the intersections at
>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/37.42584/-122.19230 and
>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/37.42432/-122.19177 per the wiki
>> but don't know if I've done it correctly.
>>
>> Thanks!
>> -Tod
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Turn lane tagging

[Marc Gemis]

I use the style
https://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/Styles/Lane_and_Road_Attributes for the
same "project" as you. It's very powerful and I think the author deserves a
big think you.

regards

m


On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 9:34 PM, Tod Fitch  wrote:

> None of the area I am in has had turn lanes tagged per
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:turn#Turning_indications_per_laneor 
> destinations set per
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:destination:lanes#Destinations_per_lane
>
> When I start doing new tagging, I like to find existing tools that display
> and/or check the tagging to see if I am doing the "new to me" tagging
> properly. But I haven't found a map that renders lanes or even width of way
> based on lane count much less turn lanes. Nor have I found a tool like
> those at the ITO site to check such tagging.
>
> The turn lane plug-in for JOSM seems to be the only thing that will render
> and to a certain extent validate the tagging. But I'd like a bit more
> feedback that I am doing things correctly.
>
> Can someone point me to a tool or renderer that checks/displays things
> like lane count, turn lanes, etc.?
>
> For what it is worth, I've attempted to tag the intersections at
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/37.42584/-122.19230 and
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/37.42432/-122.19177 per the wiki but
> don't know if I've done it correctly.
>
> Thanks!
> -Tod
>
>
>
>
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[Tagging] Turn lane tagging

[Tod Fitch]

None of the area I am in has had turn lanes tagged per 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:turn#Turning_indications_per_lane or 
destinations set per 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:destination:lanes#Destinations_per_lane

When I start doing new tagging, I like to find existing tools that display 
and/or check the tagging to see if I am doing the "new to me" tagging properly. 
But I haven't found a map that renders lanes or even width of way based on lane 
count much less turn lanes. Nor have I found a tool like those at the ITO site 
to check such tagging.

The turn lane plug-in for JOSM seems to be the only thing that will render and 
to a certain extent validate the tagging. But I'd like a bit more feedback that 
I am doing things correctly.

Can someone point me to a tool or renderer that checks/displays things like 
lane count, turn lanes, etc.?

For what it is worth, I've attempted to tag the intersections at 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/37.42584/-122.19230 and 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/37.42432/-122.19177 per the wiki but don't 
know if I've done it correctly.

Thanks!
-Tod





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