Re: [Tagging] Using destination_sign relations for pedestrian navigation

[Jan Michel]

Hi Antoine,

I think your suggestions are all valid, but it seems some make tagging 
and using data more complicated than necessary.



On 05.09.19 09:29, Antoine Riche via Tagging wrote:
In order to improve the user experience, we want to provide walking 
instructions such as "take the exit 'Rue de Londres'" or "Walk through 
the gate labelled 'Northern lines'" rather than "Walk 75 metres then 
turn left". Our problem is that such waypoints may have a different name 
depending on the direction you cross them. The solution we used is to 
create, when there is such an ambiguity, two destination_sign relations 
pointing to the same 'intersection' member, one for each direction with 
the 'from' and 'to' members swapped. Here is an example at Juvisy 
station : the entrance named 'Accès Danton' when walking in 
(https://www.osm.org/relation/9471596) is named 'Quartier Seine' when 
walking out (https://www.osm.org/relation/9471597).
That's correct and how it's done usually. In such a simple case, the 
same information can also be added to the way passing through the 
entrance using the tags 'destination:forward' and 
'destination:backward'. I think this carries all the information you 
need for the routing. The additional information the relation is able to 
handle (location of the sign, colours etc.) are not needed here. Adding 
tags to a (short) way is much less effort and serves the purpose very 
well here. In addition, the 'destination' tag is already used by some 
routing tools.



I wish to amend the Wiki to explain that destination_sign relations can 
also be used for pedestrian and indoor routing, not just at 
"crossroads". Does that require opening a discussion in the discussion 
page, or may I just go ahead ?


A huge amount of these relations are already used on paths like hiking 
trails, so this tagging scheme is definitely not limited to road signs. 
So there is no redefinition needed, maybe the description needs to be 
refined a bit.



Now since the routing engine supports area routing, we need to loosen 
some constraints on the members, that are documented on the wiki and 
enforced by the JOSM validator :
1/ allow areas for the 'from' and 'to' members, as in this example : 
https://www.osm.org/relation/9722912
This seems to be fine - you have to note that many data users (me 
included) are not actually able to handle areas well with respect to 
routing.


2/ allow multiple 'intersection' members, so that multiple doors can be 
referenced by a single relation – example in Gare Montparnasse : 
https://www.osm.org/relation/9823029
This looks fine to me - but the destinations should be tagged using 
'destination' and not using 'name' - that would be the name of the sign 
(which is unlikely to exist).


3/ allow multiple 'to' members, so that the same relation can point to 
both a line and an area, and cover linear and area routing (no example 
but I could create one).
In my opinion, the area should not be included here. The 'to' member of 
the relation is not meant to be the final destination, but just a way or 
node you need to pass through to get to your destination. That would be 
a node directly after the 'intersection'. Having both makes it difficult 
for the data user to find which one is the correct one in the current 
context. The decision might not always be as simple as 'area' vs. 'way'.



FYI, I'm working a bit on displaying destination signs, mostly in the 
context of hiking guideposts, but yours can be displayed as well, e.g.

http://osm.janmichel.eu/destinationsign/example/index.htm#zoom=18=48.993567=2.2349=6079938675
This is currently very much "work in progress" and far from being 
finalized, but you might find it helpful.




Are there objections to this proposal ? Do you recommend to open this 
subject on the Discussion page or is it best discussing it on this list ?


Regards,
Antoine.



Jan


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Re: [Tagging] Using destination_sign relations for pedestrian navigation

[Antoine Riche via Tagging]

Thank for your reponses so far. Any views on loosening the constraints 
on member types and cardinalities ?


Le 05/09/2019 à 19:33, yo paseopor a écrit :

Using established is the best way, but look at this, it could be useful
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Extended_traffic_signs_tagging#Destination_signs

It covers all kind of traffic signs, also destination traffic signs, 
so it would be useful for a pedestrian destination traffic sign 
description and your routing subject.


Salut i mapes (Health and maps)
yopaseopor


On Thu, Sep 5, 2019 at 9:31 AM Antoine Riche via Tagging 
mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org>> wrote:


Hello.

We are working with SNCF, the french railway company, to provide
pedestrian navigation inside and around railway stations in the
Greater Paris area. A dedicated routing engine, which provides
indoor/outdoor navigation and supports area routing, has been
developed – this will be presented during SOTM in Heidelberg.

In order to improve the user experience, we want to provide
walking instructions such as "take the exit 'Rue de Londres'" or
"Walk through the gate labelled 'Northern lines'" rather than
"Walk 75 metres then turn left". Our problem is that such
waypoints may have a different name depending on the direction you
cross them. The solution we used is to create, when there is such
an ambiguity, two destination_sign relations pointing to the same
'intersection' member, one for each direction with the 'from' and
'to' members swapped. Here is an example at Juvisy station : the
entrance named 'Accès Danton' when walking in
(https://www.osm.org/relation/9471596) is named 'Quartier Seine'
when walking out (https://www.osm.org/relation/9471597).

I wish to amend the Wiki to explain that destination_sign
relations can also be used for pedestrian and indoor routing, not
just at "crossroads". Does that require opening a discussion in
the discussion page, or may I just go ahead ?

Now since the routing engine supports area routing, we need to
loosen some constraints on the members, that are documented on the
wiki and enforced by the JOSM validator :
1/ allow areas for the 'from' and 'to' members, as in this example
: https://www.osm.org/relation/9722912
2/ allow multiple 'intersection' members, so that multiple doors
can be referenced by a single relation – example in Gare
Montparnasse : https://www.osm.org/relation/9823029
3/ allow multiple 'to' members, so that the same relation can
point to both a line and an area, and cover linear and area
routing (no example but I could create one).

Are there objections to this proposal ? Do you recommend to open
this subject on the Discussion page or is it best discussing it on
this list ?

Regards,
Antoine.

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Re: [Tagging] Using destination_sign relations for pedestrian navigation

[yo paseopor]

Using established is the best way, but look at this, it could be useful
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Extended_traffic_signs_tagging#Destination_signs

It covers all kind of traffic signs, also destination traffic signs, so it
would be useful for a pedestrian destination traffic sign description and
your routing subject.

Salut i mapes (Health and maps)
yopaseopor


On Thu, Sep 5, 2019 at 9:31 AM Antoine Riche via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> Hello.
>
> We are working with SNCF, the french railway company, to provide
> pedestrian navigation inside and around railway stations in the Greater
> Paris area. A dedicated routing engine, which provides indoor/outdoor
> navigation and supports area routing, has been developed – this will be
> presented during SOTM in Heidelberg.
>
> In order to improve the user experience, we want to provide walking
> instructions such as "take the exit 'Rue de Londres'" or "Walk through the
> gate labelled 'Northern lines'" rather than "Walk 75 metres then turn
> left". Our problem is that such waypoints may have a different name
> depending on the direction you cross them. The solution we used is to
> create, when there is such an ambiguity, two destination_sign relations
> pointing to the same 'intersection' member, one for each direction with the
> 'from' and 'to' members swapped. Here is an example at Juvisy station : the
> entrance named 'Accès Danton' when walking in (
> https://www.osm.org/relation/9471596) is named 'Quartier Seine' when
> walking out (https://www.osm.org/relation/9471597).
>
> I wish to amend the Wiki to explain that destination_sign relations can
> also be used for pedestrian and indoor routing, not just at "crossroads".
> Does that require opening a discussion in the discussion page, or may I
> just go ahead ?
>
> Now since the routing engine supports area routing, we need to loosen some
> constraints on the members, that are documented on the wiki and enforced by
> the JOSM validator :
> 1/ allow areas for the 'from' and 'to' members, as in this example :
> https://www.osm.org/relation/9722912
> 2/ allow multiple 'intersection' members, so that multiple doors can be
> referenced by a single relation – example in Gare Montparnasse :
> https://www.osm.org/relation/9823029
> 3/ allow multiple 'to' members, so that the same relation can point to
> both a line and an area, and cover linear and area routing (no example but
> I could create one).
>
> Are there objections to this proposal ? Do you recommend to open this
> subject on the Discussion page or is it best discussing it on this list ?
>
> Regards,
> Antoine.
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Re: [Tagging] Using destination_sign relations for pedestrian navigation

[Johnparis]

*I wish to amend the Wiki to explain that destination_sign relations can
also be used for pedestrian and indoor routing, not just at "crossroads".
Does that require opening a discussion in the discussion page, or may I
just go ahead ?*

I think you're reading too much into the single word "crossroads" in the
introduction. Perhaps the simplest solution is simply to add an explanation
along these lines:

"A crossroads for purposes of this tag is the intersection of two or more
highways, including pedestrian ways, cycleways, etc."

Although personally I think that's already implied.



On Thu, Sep 5, 2019 at 10:20 AM Jez Nicholson 
wrote:

> FYI, Antoine is referring to
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:destination_sign and there
> are 66,391 currently in OSM.
>
> On Thu, Sep 5, 2019 at 8:31 AM Antoine Riche via Tagging <
> tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>
>> Hello.
>>
>> We are working with SNCF, the french railway company, to provide
>> pedestrian navigation inside and around railway stations in the Greater
>> Paris area. A dedicated routing engine, which provides indoor/outdoor
>> navigation and supports area routing, has been developed – this will be
>> presented during SOTM in Heidelberg.
>>
>> In order to improve the user experience, we want to provide walking
>> instructions such as "take the exit 'Rue de Londres'" or "Walk through the
>> gate labelled 'Northern lines'" rather than "Walk 75 metres then turn
>> left". Our problem is that such waypoints may have a different name
>> depending on the direction you cross them. The solution we used is to
>> create, when there is such an ambiguity, two destination_sign relations
>> pointing to the same 'intersection' member, one for each direction with the
>> 'from' and 'to' members swapped. Here is an example at Juvisy station : the
>> entrance named 'Accès Danton' when walking in (
>> https://www.osm.org/relation/9471596) is named 'Quartier Seine' when
>> walking out (https://www.osm.org/relation/9471597).
>>
>> I wish to amend the Wiki to explain that destination_sign relations can
>> also be used for pedestrian and indoor routing, not just at "crossroads".
>> Does that require opening a discussion in the discussion page, or may I
>> just go ahead ?
>>
>> Now since the routing engine supports area routing, we need to loosen
>> some constraints on the members, that are documented on the wiki and
>> enforced by the JOSM validator :
>> 1/ allow areas for the 'from' and 'to' members, as in this example :
>> https://www.osm.org/relation/9722912
>> 2/ allow multiple 'intersection' members, so that multiple doors can be
>> referenced by a single relation – example in Gare Montparnasse :
>> https://www.osm.org/relation/9823029
>> 3/ allow multiple 'to' members, so that the same relation can point to
>> both a line and an area, and cover linear and area routing (no example but
>> I could create one).
>>
>> Are there objections to this proposal ? Do you recommend to open this
>> subject on the Discussion page or is it best discussing it on this list ?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Antoine.
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Re: [Tagging] Using destination_sign relations for pedestrian navigation

[Jez Nicholson]

FYI, Antoine is referring to
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:destination_sign and there
are 66,391 currently in OSM.

On Thu, Sep 5, 2019 at 8:31 AM Antoine Riche via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> Hello.
>
> We are working with SNCF, the french railway company, to provide
> pedestrian navigation inside and around railway stations in the Greater
> Paris area. A dedicated routing engine, which provides indoor/outdoor
> navigation and supports area routing, has been developed – this will be
> presented during SOTM in Heidelberg.
>
> In order to improve the user experience, we want to provide walking
> instructions such as "take the exit 'Rue de Londres'" or "Walk through the
> gate labelled 'Northern lines'" rather than "Walk 75 metres then turn
> left". Our problem is that such waypoints may have a different name
> depending on the direction you cross them. The solution we used is to
> create, when there is such an ambiguity, two destination_sign relations
> pointing to the same 'intersection' member, one for each direction with the
> 'from' and 'to' members swapped. Here is an example at Juvisy station : the
> entrance named 'Accès Danton' when walking in (
> https://www.osm.org/relation/9471596) is named 'Quartier Seine' when
> walking out (https://www.osm.org/relation/9471597).
>
> I wish to amend the Wiki to explain that destination_sign relations can
> also be used for pedestrian and indoor routing, not just at "crossroads".
> Does that require opening a discussion in the discussion page, or may I
> just go ahead ?
>
> Now since the routing engine supports area routing, we need to loosen some
> constraints on the members, that are documented on the wiki and enforced by
> the JOSM validator :
> 1/ allow areas for the 'from' and 'to' members, as in this example :
> https://www.osm.org/relation/9722912
> 2/ allow multiple 'intersection' members, so that multiple doors can be
> referenced by a single relation – example in Gare Montparnasse :
> https://www.osm.org/relation/9823029
> 3/ allow multiple 'to' members, so that the same relation can point to
> both a line and an area, and cover linear and area routing (no example but
> I could create one).
>
> Are there objections to this proposal ? Do you recommend to open this
> subject on the Discussion page or is it best discussing it on this list ?
>
> Regards,
> Antoine.
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[Tagging] Using destination_sign relations for pedestrian navigation

[Antoine Riche via Tagging]

Hello.

We are working with SNCF, the french railway company, to provide 
pedestrian navigation inside and around railway stations in the Greater 
Paris area. A dedicated routing engine, which provides indoor/outdoor 
navigation and supports area routing, has been developed – this will be 
presented during SOTM in Heidelberg.


In order to improve the user experience, we want to provide walking 
instructions such as "take the exit 'Rue de Londres'" or "Walk through 
the gate labelled 'Northern lines'" rather than "Walk 75 metres then 
turn left". Our problem is that such waypoints may have a different name 
depending on the direction you cross them. The solution we used is to 
create, when there is such an ambiguity, two destination_sign relations 
pointing to the same 'intersection' member, one for each direction with 
the 'from' and 'to' members swapped. Here is an example at Juvisy 
station : the entrance named 'Accès Danton' when walking in 
(https://www.osm.org/relation/9471596) is named 'Quartier Seine' when 
walking out (https://www.osm.org/relation/9471597).


I wish to amend the Wiki to explain that destination_sign relations can 
also be used for pedestrian and indoor routing, not just at 
"crossroads". Does that require opening a discussion in the discussion 
page, or may I just go ahead ?


Now since the routing engine supports area routing, we need to loosen 
some constraints on the members, that are documented on the wiki and 
enforced by the JOSM validator :
1/ allow areas for the 'from' and 'to' members, as in this example : 
https://www.osm.org/relation/9722912
2/ allow multiple 'intersection' members, so that multiple doors can be 
referenced by a single relation – example in Gare Montparnasse : 
https://www.osm.org/relation/9823029
3/ allow multiple 'to' members, so that the same relation can point to 
both a line and an area, and cover linear and area routing (no example 
but I could create one).


Are there objections to this proposal ? Do you recommend to open this 
subject on the Discussion page or is it best discussing it on this list ?


Regards,
Antoine.

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