Re: [Tagging] What is a terrace after all?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 12. Sep 2018, at 06:37, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> OSM says something about the architectural style being the significant thing 
> for a building.


no, the type, not the style. With architectural style you usually associate the 
period or period that is imitated, e.g. victorian, futurism, neo futurism, 
postmodern, art deco, etc.


Cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] What is a terrace after all?

[Marc Gemis]

> In your case you may have a way with 4 nodes. And you want to divide it
> up into seperate things. OK?
>
> I put 2 new nodes on the way.
> Then I break the way at these new nodes.
> Then I close the resultant 2 ways (one old but modified and one new) by
> extending both ways to close them.
>
> This results in
> the old way getting 2 new nodes and loosing 2 old nodes, and
> a new way with 2 old nodes and 2 new nodes.
>
> Thus all the old things are still there ... but now thee are added
> things to make more detail.

In case you are using JOSM, I recommend installing the utilsplugin2
[1], it has a split area (alt-X) function that speeds up this process.
Also, the terracer plugin [2] will keep some history, since the
original rectangle is turned into one of the new "sub-buildings".


[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/JOSM/Plugins/utilsplugin2
[2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/JOSM/Plugins/Terracer

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Re: [Tagging] What is a terrace after all?

[Warin]

On 12/09/18 12:26, André Pirard wrote:



I disagree with suggesting a whole menagerie of tags for houses, so 
that someone making a search for them has to consult a whole 
inexisting catalog of keywords to use.
I suggest a single building=house plus a series of attributes like 
house:terraced=yes if you like it, dot disappearing if the house stops 
being mapped as a row, house:detached=yes for those who didn't notice 
and to avoid calling 90% of the houses like that, house:row=yes etc to 
your imagination and liking.


It is your right to disagree.

However it is also not what OSM is doing.
OSM says something about the architectural style being the significant 
thing for a building.

The tag building=terrace tells me exactly what I would find there.
Trying to change the tagging practices of OSM is difficult.
I don't think you'll do it with this because of the OSM thinking is that 
the tag building should reflect the architectural style rather than the 
use.

Good Luck.

---
Your changing the tag building=terrace to landuse=terrace could be taken 
as vandalism.

I suggest you change it back to building=terrace.

-
Keeping the past nodes and ways but changing them .. helps keep the past 
history of where things came from.


In your case you may have a way with 4 nodes. And you want to divide it 
up into seperate things. OK?


I put 2 new nodes on the way.
Then I break the way at these new nodes.
Then I close the resultant 2 ways (one old but modified and one new) by 
extending both ways to close them.


This results in
the old way getting 2 new nodes and loosing 2 old nodes, and
a new way with 2 old nodes and 2 new nodes.

Thus all the old things are still there ... but now thee are added 
things to make more detail.



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Re: [Tagging] What is a terrace after all?

[André Pirard]

On 2018-09-10 02:27, André Pirard wrote:

Hi,

According to my OSM readings, I thought that a terrace was something 
very special, but, according to dictionary.com 
, a terrace is most exactly 
like French, mainly a) raised ground, b) flat top of a building c) an 
accessible area connected to a building at ground or upper level, such 
as for living or other purposes..
But beside that, dictionary.com defines a Terrace as a plain row of 
houses without a terrace at all and so does building=terrace 
, unlike 
French and Wikipedia which calls it Terraced_house 
 (adjective).


Practically, I'm correcting hundredths of houses tagged at 3-5m+ away 
from their true location, with incorrect shape and without any addr:* 
at all. And during this I met areas tagged building=terrace that, of 
course, are just as imprecise: they get across the houses.
If I map the houses that are inside, I get a very logical JOSM 
congratulation: "building inside a building".

In my mind, building=terrace is a bad tag. It should be:
building=house
house:terraced=yes
be it as a row of houses or a single one.
But I'm sure a reply will be "we" are not doing like that.  Like what, 
then.
What should I do? building=terrace 
 describes 
mapping separate houses as an *alternative*.

Erase what another mapper did, and replace that element with houses?
While waiting, I converted them to landuse=terraced (invisible).

On the other hand, I once asked how to map a part of the street that 
is fitted with tables and seats near a café or restaurant.

That is a *real* terrace.
No answer.

All the best,

André.


So, in summary of this discussion, we have terraces, flat surfaces, and 
we have houses that are houses and not those flat terraces but that we 
call building=terrace and not houses. The wiki suggests to map then 
separately which stops calling them terraces and to call them 
building=house because they are not another kind of houses that some do 
not call houses but detached.
I said that, while waiting to know what to do, I would temporarily keep 
the outline tagged with landuse=terrace. Someone suggested that I should 
keep the outline (permanently, I suppose) but he didn't say with which 
tag. Someone suggested that I should use landuse=residential instead. I 
said that I kept the outline temporarily and a so-called terrace landuse 
shouldn't be transformed to residential which already exists and is 
around the village instead of a few houses.


I disagree with suggesting a whole menagerie of tags for houses, so that 
someone making a search for them has to consult a whole inexisting 
catalog of keywords to use.
I suggest a single building=house plus a series of attributes like 
house:terraced=yes if you like it, dot disappearing if the house stops 
being mapped as a row, house:detached=yes for those who didn't notice 
and to avoid calling 90% of the houses like that, house:row=yes etc to 
your imagination and liking.


Now, finally, the only terrace in that story is (thanks, Marc) called a 
leisure.


Thanks to all,
All the best,

André.



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Re: [Tagging] What is a terrace after all?

[Tobias Wrede]

Am 10.09.2018 um 02:27 schrieb André Pirard:
What should I do? building=terrace 
 describes 
mapping separate houses as an *alternative*.

Erase what another mapper did, and replace that element with houses?


That's what I do. You may keep the original outline to keep some history 
but mapping the individual houses (building=house) stores more 
information so should be the preferred way.




While waiting, I converted them to landuse=terraced (invisible).


That on the other had is bad practice in my opinion. The landuse of the 
whole area should be "residential". The terrace does not get an extra 
landuse. Having many building=house sharing walls identifies terraces 
well enough I would say.


cheers, Tobi


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Re: [Tagging] What is a terrace after all?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 10. Sep 2018, at 09:46, Colin Smale  wrote:
> 
> For an individual dwelling, we have building=house. For the entire row as a 
> single building, building=terrace_of_houses might be better, or otherwise 
> building=housing_terrace. But not building=terraced_house as that implies a 
> single dwelling.
> 

+1, that’s what I tried to say (I would map individual terraced houses and add 
building=terraced_house). For individual houses there is also 
building=detached, building=semi detached etc. , that’s one reason why 
building=terrace is unclear (whole terrace of houses or a single terraced 
house?). Building:part / building =terrace could also be intended for a covered 
terrace (paved horizontal outdoor area). Covered because that would imply it is 
a building (at least in some cases).

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Re: [Tagging] What is a terrace after all?

[Steve Doerr]

On 10/09/2018 08:21, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


I agree that building=terrace is not a nice tag, I would prefer 
building=terraced_house


To my mind, a terrace consists of a number of terraced houses. Each 
house in the terrace is one terraced house, but the whole block of 
houses (mapped as a single object) is not a terraced house.



--

Steve


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Re: [Tagging] What is a terrace after all?

[Colin Smale]

For an individual dwelling, we have building=house. For the entire row
as a single building, building=terrace_of_houses might be better, or
otherwise building=housing_terrace. But not building=terraced_house as
that implies a single dwelling.

On 2018-09-10 09:21, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

> sent from a phone
> 
>> On 10. Sep 2018, at 02:27, André Pirard  wrote:
>> 
>> In my mind, building=terrace is a bad tag. It should be:
>> building=house
>> house:terraced=yes
>> be it as a row of houses or a single one.
> 
> I agree that building=terrace is not a nice tag, I would prefer 
> building=terraced_house
> 
> cheers,
> Martin
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Re: [Tagging] What is a terrace after all?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 10. Sep 2018, at 02:27, André Pirard  wrote:
> 
> In my mind, building=terrace is a bad tag. It should be:
> building=house
> house:terraced=yes
> be it as a row of houses or a single one.


I agree that building=terrace is not a nice tag, I would prefer 
building=terraced_house

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] What is a terrace after all?

[Marc Gemis]

On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 3:19 AM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 10/09/18 10:27, André Pirard wrote:
>

>
> On the other hand, I once asked how to map a part of the street that is 
> fitted with tables and seats near a café or restaurant.
> That is a real terrace.
>
>
> But it is not a building! So building=terrace is totally incorrect for this 
> kind of terrace.
>
> Are the tables and seats fixed? Or do they get moved?
> If fixed .. I'd tend to go with man_made=table and man_made=seat.
> However that are over 400 amenity=table in the data base, so look for 
> yourself.
>

see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure=outdoor_seating
which is now rendered on the default style on osm.org as well.

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Re: [Tagging] What is a terrace after all?

[Joseph Eisenberg]

André, "terraced housing" is a British English language term for what we
would call row houses in America.
If there is already a building outline for the whole row, and you would
like to make it more precise by outlining each individual house, great!
(As the wiki says, this is the preferred option:
*"A more detailed and recommended alternative is to map each dwelling
separately using building
=house
." )*

You can use the "terracer" plugin within JOSM:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/JOSM/Plugins/Terracer
*"Select the terrace outline way and use the Terrace tool (Shift-T by
default) (optionally also select the street to auto-complete the road name
- see below). It will ask for the range of house numbers and the
interpolation between them as well as, optionally, the road name."*
*"...After clicking OK, you are left with the houses selected so that
entering additional shared tags is easier."*

Joseph

On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 9:28 AM André Pirard 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> According to my OSM readings, I thought that a terrace was something very
> special, but, according to dictionary.com
> , a terrace is most exactly
> like French, mainly a) raised ground, b) flat top of a building c) an
> accessible area connected to a building at ground or upper level, such as
> for living or other purposes..
> But beside that, dictionary.com defines a Terrace as a plain row of
> houses without a terrace at all and so does building=terrace
> , unlike
> French and Wikipedia which calls it Terraced_house
>  (adjective).
>
> Practically, I'm correcting hundredths of houses tagged at 3-5m+ away from
> their true location, with incorrect shape and without any addr:* at all.
> And during this I met areas tagged building=terrace that, of course, are
> just as imprecise: they get across the houses.
> If I map the houses that are inside, I get a very logical JOSM
> congratulation: "building inside a building".
> In my mind, building=terrace is a bad tag. It should be:
> building=house
> house:terraced=yes
> be it as a row of houses or a single one.
> But I'm sure a reply will be "we" are not doing like that.  Like what,
> then.
> What should I do? building=terrace
>  describes
> mapping separate houses as an *alternative*.
> Erase what another mapper did, and replace that element with houses?
> While waiting, I converted them to landuse=terraced (invisible).
>
> On the other hand, I once asked how to map a part of the street that is
> fitted with tables and seats near a café or restaurant.
> That is a *real* terrace.
> No answer.
>
> All the best,
>
> André.
>
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Re: [Tagging] What is a terrace after all?

[Warin]

On 10/09/18 10:27, André Pirard wrote:

Hi,

According to my OSM readings, I thought that a terrace was something 
very special, but, according to dictionary.com 
, a terrace is most exactly 
like French, mainly a) raised ground, b) flat top of a building c) an 
accessible area connected to a building at ground or upper level, such 
as for living or other purposes..
But beside that, dictionary.com defines a Terrace as a plain row of 
houses without a terrace at all and so does building=terrace 
, unlike 
French and Wikipedia which calls it Terraced_house 
 (adjective).



While a 'terrace' is that .. a 'terrace building' is not that.

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terraced_house

"a row of identical or mirror-image houses share side walls."

The modern practice is to build 'town houses' to try and achieve a 
similar population density.


Practically, I'm correcting hundredths of houses tagged at 3-5m+ away 
from their true location, with incorrect shape and without any addr:* 
at all. And during this I met areas tagged building=terrace that, of 
course, are just as imprecise: they get across the houses.
If I map the houses that are inside, I get a very logical JOSM 
congratulation: "building inside a building".

In my mind, building=terrace is a bad tag. It should be:
building=house
house:terraced=yes
be it as a row of houses or a single one.
But I'm sure a reply will be "we" are not doing like that.  Like what, 
then.
What should I do? building=terrace 
 describes 
mapping separate houses as an *alternative*.

Erase what another mapper did, and replace that element with houses?



While waiting, I converted them to landuse=terraced (invisible).


landuse=residential is the correct tag .. for the area .. not the building!
It should be used to cover the general residential area.

You may as well have used pirade=something_to_do_later
that would at least have other mappers not try to interpret the 
landuse=terraced into something such as landuse=agriculture ('terraces' 
are also used for some farm fields!).





On the other hand, I once asked how to map a part of the street that 
is fitted with tables and seats near a café or restaurant.

That is a *real* terrace.


But it is not a building! So building=terrace is totally incorrect for 
this kind of terrace.


Are the tables and seats fixed? Or do they get moved?
If fixed .. I'd tend to go with man_made=table and man_made=seat.
However that are over 400 amenity=table in the data base, so look for 
yourself.


As for the area .. similar issues exist for 'square', esplanade' and 
'plaza'.

Some areas are not 'pedestrian' but for sitting, not walking/promenading.

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[Tagging] What is a terrace after all?

[André Pirard]

Hi,

According to my OSM readings, I thought that a terrace was something 
very special, but, according to dictionary.com 
, a terrace is most exactly 
like French, mainly a) raised ground, b) flat top of a building c) an 
accessible area connected to a building at ground or upper level, such 
as for living or other purposes..
But beside that, dictionary.com defines a Terrace as a plain row of 
houses without a terrace at all and so does building=terrace 
, unlike 
French and Wikipedia which calls it Terraced_house 
 (adjective).


Practically, I'm correcting hundredths of houses tagged at 3-5m+ away 
from their true location, with incorrect shape and without any addr:* at 
all. And during this I met areas tagged building=terrace that, of 
course, are just as imprecise: they get across the houses.
If I map the houses that are inside, I get a very logical JOSM 
congratulation: "building inside a building".

In my mind, building=terrace is a bad tag. It should be:
building=house
house:terraced=yes
be it as a row of houses or a single one.
But I'm sure a reply will be "we" are not doing like that.  Like what, then.
What should I do? building=terrace 
 describes 
mapping separate houses as an *alternative*.

Erase what another mapper did, and replace that element with houses?
While waiting, I converted them to landuse=terraced (invisible).

On the other hand, I once asked how to map a part of the street that is 
fitted with tables and seats near a café or restaurant.

That is a *real* terrace.
No answer.

All the best,

André.



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