Re: [Tagging] Why should we avoid overusage of amenity=* tag?

[Kevin Kenny]

On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 5:47 AM Mateusz Konieczny
 wrote:
> 25 Apr 2019, 23:49 by 61sundow...@gmail.com:
>> Communities have drawn together to keep a bank, a supermarket and a garage 
>> going locally. They have also drawn together to keep a doctor.
>> They don't draw together for a church.
>
> Depends on a community. The last one
> certainly is not true for many places.

Certainly near me, there is hardly a village without a church. By the
time the church is boarded up or repurposed, the village is well on
the way to being a ghost town. They certainly outlast the schools -
most kids in the rural villages are bused to central schools nowadays;
and the supermarkets - many villages have never had more than a
general store. (Often, the shopkeeper is also the postmaster.)

In many cases, the church lent its name to the community. Not too far
north of me, there are places named Saint-Henri, Saint-Huberts, ...
that share their names with the parishes. (Anecdotally, around here,
the French settlers did that in their naming; the Dutch and English
generally did not.)

As I think I mentioned earlier, the defunct 18th-century village that
lends its name to the township where my brother lives is a ghost town
- nothing remains but stone foundations, a fine bridge to nowhere, a
few stone walls separating what once were kitchen gardens, and ... the
church, rebuilt several times after fires, and still in occasional use
on special occasions. (There's no longer a community to support it.)
The church was maintained long after the smithy (the village was
abandoned before the rise of the automobile), the store, and the
schoolhouse were all gone. The church needed major repairs a few years
ago, and the scattered inhabitants of the township raised a
subscription to do the work.

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Re: [Tagging] Why should we avoid overusage of amenity=* tag?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

25 Apr 2019, 23:49 by 61sundow...@gmail.com:

>
> Communities have drawn together to keep a bank, a supermarket and a garage 
> going locally. They have also drawn together to keep a doctor.
> They don't draw together for a church.
>
Depends on a community. The last one
 certainly is not true for many places.___
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Re: [Tagging] Why should we avoid overusage of amenity=* tag?

[Warin]

On 26/04/19 04:10, Philip Barnes wrote:

On Wednesday, 24 April 2019, Warin wrote:

On 25/04/19 04:39, Dave F wrote:


On 21/04/2019 01:12, Warin wrote:


I am all for the introduction of the key education=*


It makes sense, adds detail - improves the map data base.

True.

The one that irks me is amenity=cafe. It isn't there for the benefit
of the community; it is a commercial enterprise & should be tagged as
a shop.

+1

The same can be said for a pub, restaurant, etc.
   They are all  commercial enterprises, if they did not make money they
would not exist.
   There 'service' to the community is there to help them make money.


Although one of the descriptions that an estate agent will use when describing 
a property is close to the amenities. The big 4 Ps that are used to describe 
the amenities that make a village sustainable are Primary School, Parish 
Church, Post Office and Pub.


Bank, Supermarket, Post Office, Doctor, garage and pub. ... Church? Not a 
frequent requirement.




Once any go, then the community is dieing. The pub is a major amenity, that is 
why communities will club together to operate and keep the pub open.

So it may be a business, but it is also one of the prime amenities.



The supermarket is also a sign of a healthy community. Once the last one of 
them goes it is all down hill from there.
Communities have drawn together to keep a bank, a supermarket and a garage 
going locally. They have also drawn together to keep a doctor.
They don't draw together for a church.


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Re: [Tagging] Why should we avoid overusage of amenity=* tag?

[Philip Barnes]

On Wednesday, 24 April 2019, Warin wrote:
> On 25/04/19 04:39, Dave F wrote:
> >
> >
> > On 21/04/2019 01:12, Warin wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> I am all for the introduction of the key education=*
> >>
> >>
> >> It makes sense, adds detail - improves the map data base.
> >
> > True.
> >
> > The one that irks me is amenity=cafe. It isn't there for the benefit 
> > of the community; it is a commercial enterprise & should be tagged as 
> > a shop.
> 
> +1
> 
> The same can be said for a pub, restaurant, etc.
>   They are all  commercial enterprises, if they did not make money they 
> would not exist.
>   There 'service' to the community is there to help them make money.
> 
Although one of the descriptions that an estate agent will use when describing 
a property is close to the amenities. The big 4 Ps that are used to describe 
the amenities that make a village sustainable are Primary School, Parish 
Church, Post Office and Pub.

Once any go, then the community is dieing. The pub is a major amenity, that is 
why communities will club together to operate and keep the pub open.

So it may be a business, but it is also one of the prime amenities. 

Phil (trigpoint)

-- 
Sent from my Sailfish device
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Re: [Tagging] Why should we avoid overusage of amenity=* tag?

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 at 23:07, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> The same can be said for a pub, restaurant, etc.
>   They are all  commercial enterprises, if they did not make money they
> would not exist.
>   There 'service' to the community is there to help them make money.
>

Mostly, but not always true of pubs.  In my area village pubs close and
never re-open.  Except,
in a few cases, the local community chips in and buys the pub to run it for
the benefit of the
community..  Here's an article for an attempt to make a pub a couple of
miles from me into a
community pub:
https://www.tivysideadvertiser.co.uk/news/17500848.st-dogmaels-residents-looking-to-run-white-hart-inn-as-a-community-pub/

Then there are (in the UK) Miners' Welfares and Working Men's Clubs which
are more amenity
than commercial organization selling alcohol.  Many pubs have some form of
gaming available
(snooker, pool, or darts).

In any case, a pub is an amenity in the way that a supermarket is not.  You
don't go to a
supermarket to spend hours chatting with your friends (unless you're one of
the several
idiots who use the same supermarket I do), but you do use a pub for that
place, making it
a place of leisure.

I'd argue that  pubs are better placed under amenity than shop.
Restaurants are a tougher call,
because they are often used for social occasions rather than just feeding
stations.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Why should we avoid overusage of amenity=* tag?

[Warin]

On 25/04/19 04:39, Dave F wrote:



On 21/04/2019 01:12, Warin wrote:



I am all for the introduction of the key education=*


It makes sense, adds detail - improves the map data base.


True.

The one that irks me is amenity=cafe. It isn't there for the benefit 
of the community; it is a commercial enterprise & should be tagged as 
a shop.


+1

The same can be said for a pub, restaurant, etc.
 They are all  commercial enterprises, if they did not make money they 
would not exist.

 There 'service' to the community is there to help them make money.

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Re: [Tagging] Why should we avoid overusage of amenity=* tag?

[Dave F via Tagging]

On 21/04/2019 01:12, Warin wrote:



I am all for the introduction of the key education=*


It makes sense, adds detail - improves the map data base.


True.

The one that irks me is amenity=cafe. It isn't there for the benefit of 
the community; it is a commercial enterprise & should be tagged as a shop.


DaveF

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Re: [Tagging] Why should we avoid overusage of amenity=* tag?

[Valor Naram]

To your 4.: We need to get the developers to change their presets beforehand. Original Message Subject: Re: [Tagging] Why should we avoid overusage of amenity=* tag?From: Paul Allen To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" CC: On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 at 10:16, Valor Naram <valin...@gmx.net> wrote:Deprecating "amenity" would hurt because it's a very important key. But I have some suggestions:There are cases where amenity is an appropriate tag.  Such as for amenities. 1. Keeping the "amenity" wiki page intact.2. Creating/extending pages for new keys e.g. Key:education3. Suggesting "education=*" instead of "amenity=education" on the "amenity" wiki page.3.5 Persuading developers of editors to prefer education=* to amenity=* when mappersselect "school," "university," etc.  Many mappers rely on editor presets and will only over-ridewhat those presets offer if they disagree with the tags the editor gives them.4. A transition period for changing the database and to aware other mappers of it.4 is feasible ONLY if the new education=* offers are 1-for-1 correspondence withamenity=* for educational facilities.  That is amenity=school can be directly and unambiguously replaced with education=* (possibly with sub-tags).  There can beno "it depends" situations if a bulk edit is to take place.  Otherwise it would have to bedone on a case-by-case basis.-- Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Why should we avoid overusage of amenity=* tag?

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 at 10:16, Valor Naram  wrote:

>
> Deprecating "amenity" would hurt because it's a very important key. But I
> have some suggestions:
>

There are cases where amenity is an appropriate tag.  Such as for amenities.

1. Keeping the "amenity" wiki page intact.
> 2. Creating/extending pages for new keys e.g. Key:education
> 3. Suggesting "education=*" instead of "amenity=education" on the
> "amenity" wiki page.
>

3.5 Persuading developers of editors to prefer education=* to amenity=*
when mappers
select "school," "university," etc.  Many mappers rely on editor presets
and will only over-ride
what those presets offer if they disagree with the tags the editor gives
them.

4. A transition period for changing the database and to aware other mappers
> of it.
>

4 is feasible ONLY if the new education=* offers are 1-for-1 correspondence
with
amenity=* for educational facilities.  That is amenity=school can be
directly and
unambiguously replaced with education=* (possibly with sub-tags).  There
can be
no "it depends" situations if a bulk edit is to take place.  Otherwise it
would have to be
done on a case-by-case basis.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Why should we avoid overusage of amenity=* tag?

[Valor Naram]

Good reasons were given here. I changed also my mind but there's the problem of how to deal with this problem.Deprecating "amenity" would hurt because it's a very important key. But I have some suggestions:1. Keeping the "amenity" wiki page intact.2. Creating/extending pages for new keys e.g. Key:education3. Suggesting "education=*" instead of "amenity=education" on the "amenity" wiki page.4. A transition period for changing the database and to aware other mappers of it.---- Original Message ----Subject: Re: [Tagging] Why should we avoid overusage of amenity=* tag?From: 石野貴之 To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" CC: Thank you for the reply.> These difficulties, and opposing ideas on how to deal with existing tags, make it hard to change established tagging schemes. But I am strongly in favour of not establishing new amenity=* for hitherto unmapped facilites, but rather use new tags altogether, whose use can then be expanded into proper tagging schemes.I support your idea using new tags altogether with existing tags.Then, how about the following examples? Do you think them good ideas?   (a) office=educational_institution and education=cram-school for Japanese jukus aimed for entrance examinations.  (b) shop=computer and education=specialty if a computer shop provides a workshop to learn how to use computers.Takayuki Ishinoyumean1...@gmail.com
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Re: [Tagging] Why should we avoid overusage of amenity=* tag?

[石野貴之]

Thank you for the reply.

> These difficulties, and opposing ideas on how to deal with existing tags,
make it hard to change established tagging schemes. But I am strongly in
favour of not establishing new amenity=* for hitherto unmapped facilites,
but rather use new tags altogether, whose use can then be expanded into
proper tagging schemes.

I support your idea using new tags altogether with existing tags.
Then, how about the following examples? Do you think them good ideas?

 (a) *office=educational_institution* and *education=cram-school* for
Japanese *juku*s aimed for entrance examinations.

 (b) *shop=computer* and *education=specialty* if a computer shop provides
a workshop to learn how to use computers.

Takayuki Ishino
yumean1...@gmail.com
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Re: [Tagging] Why should we avoid overusage of amenity=* tag?

[Jan S]

Am Mo., 22. Apr. 2019 um 01:48 Uhr schrieb Paul Allen :

>
> It certainly makes overpass turbo queries a lot simpler and more intuitive
> if we can group all
> education facilities under education rather than under amenity.  Typing
> "education=*" is shorter
> than "amenity=school or amenity=university".  And won't trip you up if you
> forget that you also
> needed to query for amenity=college, etc.  We did it for healthcare, we
> can do it for education.
>
> In the short-term it means even more complex queries to find educational
> establishments because
> both sets of tags will be in use.  However, if we have a 1:1
> correspondence (amenity=school ->
> education=school) then a bulk edit is technically possible and maybe even
> politically possible.
>
> Otherwise let's get rid of amenity=* by tagging EVERYTHING as thing=*.
> It's the logical next step
> after using amenity any time we can't think of a better tag.
>
> I am in favour of using specific tags to group sets of things that belong
together, instead of using general tags like "amenity". But it's difficult
to teach an old dog new tricks. "Amenity" has been adopted so widely that
whenever a specific set of tags would be introduced, the question arises of
how to treat those things that have already been tagged as "amenity=*".
E.g. in the case of educational institutions, it would either be necessary
to maintain amenity=school or amenity=university, or double-tag these
institutions for the sake of backward compatibility as amenity=school and
education=school, or to automatic retagging of all amenity=school as
education=school (DANGER!!!).

These difficulties, and opposing ideas on how to deal with existing tags,
make it hard to change established tagging schemes. But I am strongly in
favour of not establishing new amenity=* for hitherto unmapped facilites,
but rather use new tags altogether, whose use can then be expanded into
proper tagging schemes.

Best, Jan
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Re: [Tagging] Why should we avoid overusage of amenity=* tag?

[Paul Allen]

On Sun, 21 Apr 2019 at 23:42, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

This helps mappers find similar things all under the one key.
> If highways were placed under amenity so
> amenity=motorway/secondary/primary/residential etc it would make mapping
> harder not easier.
>

It certainly makes overpass turbo queries a lot simpler and more intuitive
if we can group all
education facilities under education rather than under amenity.  Typing
"education=*" is shorter
than "amenity=school or amenity=university".  And won't trip you up if you
forget that you also
needed to query for amenity=college, etc.  We did it for healthcare, we can
do it for education.

In the short-term it means even more complex queries to find educational
establishments because
both sets of tags will be in use.  However, if we have a 1:1 correspondence
(amenity=school ->
education=school) then a bulk edit is technically possible and maybe even
politically possible.

Otherwise let's get rid of amenity=* by tagging EVERYTHING as thing=*.
It's the logical next step
after using amenity any time we can't think of a better tag.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Why should we avoid overusage of amenity=* tag?

[Warin]

I am one of the people who disagree about using the key amenity

Would shops, crafts and offices be better in amenity? I think not.
Where any set of features can be grouped together they should be, and 
given there own key, such as education.

This helps mappers find similar things all under the one key.
If highways were placed under amenity so 
amenity=motorway/secondary/primary/residential etc it would make mapping 
harder not easier.


On 21/04/19 18:24, Valor Naram wrote:
I agree since "amenity" is a good tag and there are many different 
types of facilities available. In my view introducing an own key for 
each possibility would be messy.


Leaving it how it is now seems the best. Future proposals should just 
add a value to the "amenity" key



 Original Message ----
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Why should we avoid overusage of amenity=* tag?
From: Mateusz Konieczny
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
CC:





Apr 21, 2019, 3:55 AM by yumean1...@gmail.com:

I think that our discussion about these tagging schemes is in
very slow progress. In my opinion, a proposal on a new tag
like amenity=educational_services
is more effective rather than shifting to educational=*
tagging schemes.

I agree. Note that there are many people with conflicting opinions
about how tagging
should work and how it should be changed.

For example I see no problem with many features using amenity key.

In some cases there are groups of people with completely opposing
opinions and it
is impossible to please both of them.



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Re: [Tagging] Why should we avoid overusage of amenity=* tag?

[Paul Allen]

On Sun, 21 Apr 2019 at 15:52, Joseph Eisenberg 
wrote:

> In villages and neighborhoods of smaller towns, the school is often
> the largest or only public place.
>

No argument here.

In Central and South America, the public school is also often the
> place where voting takes place for elections,


Also in the UK.

community meetings happen, and cultural events take place.
>

Also in the UK.

However, is the fact that a school is used for voting once every four years
more important
than that is is a place of education?  Is the fact that a school holds a
community event once
a month more important than that it is a place of eduction?

Shouldn't we be tagging the primary use?  A village hall might be built
that is then used for
voting and community events, but the school remains a school (until
budgetary cuts force its
closure).  A school is primarily an educational establishment and only
secondarily something
else.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Why should we avoid overusage of amenity=* tag?

[Joseph Eisenberg]

In villages and neighborhoods of smaller towns, the school is often
the largest or only public place.

In Central and South America, the public school is also often the
place where voting takes place for elections, community meetings
happen, and cultural events take place. This is also true of many
rural settlements in North America which lack any other secular
meeting place. In my rural American home town the public school
building was the only place to hold an indoor community event.

I suspect that in many rural areas the school is one of the most
likely places to meet with someone outside of the home or workplace,
because there are no other "third places" such as cafes, restaurants,
libraries, etc.

On 4/21/19, Paul Allen  wrote:
> On Sat, 20 Apr 2019 at 19:52, 石野貴之  wrote:
>
>>
>> I don't know the reason why we should not use amenity=* too much. If you
>> have time, please let me know.
>>
>> Lack of specificity.  It's nice to be able to categorize things.
> Otherwise every physical tag would be
> natural=* (if beaver damns are natural because beavers are natural, then
> all man_made=* is natural
> because man is natural) and every functional tag would be amenity=*.  There
> has, in the past, been
> a tendency to treat amenity=* as misc=* and some of us are trying to limit
> such usage.
>
> There is also a feeling that"amenity" is more suitable for places offering
> leisure activities and
> for actual amenities (such as post boxes) rather than schools.  Very few
> people decide to go on
> holiday to a school, or feel a need to visit a school to do something.
> Schools, like offices, are places
> most of us would prefer not to be and only go there because we're compelled
> or paid to do so.
>
> --
> Paul
>

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Re: [Tagging] Why should we avoid overusage of amenity=* tag?

[Valor Naram]

I agree since "amenity" is a good tag and there are many different types of facilities available. In my view introducing an own key for each possibility would be messy.Leaving it how it is now seems the best. Future proposals should just add a value to the "amenity" key Original Message ----Subject: Re: [Tagging] Why should we avoid overusage of amenity=* tag?From: Mateusz Konieczny To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" CC: 
  
  
Apr 21, 2019, 3:55 AM by yumean1...@gmail.com:I think that our discussion about these tagging schemes is in very slow progress. In my opinion, a proposal on a new tag like amenity=educational_services is more effective rather than shifting to educational=* tagging schemes.I agree. Note that there are many people with conflicting opinions about how taggingshould work and how it should be changed.For example I see no problem with many features using amenity key.In some cases there are groups of people with completely opposing opinions and itis impossible to please both of them.  

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Re: [Tagging] Why should we avoid overusage of amenity=* tag?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

Apr 21, 2019, 3:55 AM by yumean1...@gmail.com:

> I think that our discussion about these tagging schemes is in very slow 
> progress. In my opinion, a proposal on a new tag like 
> amenity=educational_services 
> is more effective rather than shifting to educational=* tagging schemes.
>
I agree. Note that there are many people with conflicting opinions about how 
tagging
should work and how it should be changed.

For example I see no problem with many features using amenity key.

In some cases there are groups of people with completely opposing opinions and 
it
is impossible to please both of them.

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Re: [Tagging] Why should we avoid overusage of amenity=* tag?

[石野貴之]

Thank you for the speedy reply!

2019年4月21日(日) 9:13 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:

> On 21/04/19 05:31, Paul Allen wrote:
>
> On Sat, 20 Apr 2019 at 19:52, 石野貴之  wrote:
>
>>
>> I don't know the reason why we should not use amenity=* too much. If you
>> have time, please let me know.
>>
>> Lack of specificity.  It's nice to be able to categorize things.
>
>
> I also feel it great if we can categorize things in a more sophisticated
way.

However, tags like amenity=school and amenity=university are so widely used
that upward compatibility would be lost
after changing them into education=school and education=university.

We have a great deal of needs in distinguishing unofficial educational
facilities such as cram schools, vocational training centers and cooking
classes
from official educational ones(schools,universities,...). Also, there will
be a positive effect if we can separate them from facilities which should
be
office=educational_institute and cannnot be used by students(like
educational comittees, headquarter offices for educational companies and so
on).

I think that our discussion about these tagging schemes is in very slow
progress. In my opinion, a proposal on a new tag like
amenity=educational_services
is more effective rather than shifting to educational=* tagging schemes.

Takayuki Ishino
yumean1...@gmail.com

>
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Re: [Tagging] Why should we avoid overusage of amenity=* tag?

[Paul Allen]

On Sat, 20 Apr 2019 at 19:52, 石野貴之  wrote:

>
> I don't know the reason why we should not use amenity=* too much. If you
> have time, please let me know.
>
> Lack of specificity.  It's nice to be able to categorize things.
Otherwise every physical tag would be
natural=* (if beaver damns are natural because beavers are natural, then
all man_made=* is natural
because man is natural) and every functional tag would be amenity=*.  There
has, in the past, been
a tendency to treat amenity=* as misc=* and some of us are trying to limit
such usage.

There is also a feeling that"amenity" is more suitable for places offering
leisure activities and
for actual amenities (such as post boxes) rather than schools.  Very few
people decide to go on
holiday to a school, or feel a need to visit a school to do something.
Schools, like offices, are places
most of us would prefer not to be and only go there because we're compelled
or paid to do so.

-- 
Paul
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[Tagging] Why should we avoid overusage of amenity=* tag?

[石野貴之]

Hello. I am yumean1119 from Japan and mapping mainly around Okayama.

Recently, I have surfed some proposal pages about new tagging schems for
educational facilities.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Education_2.0

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_Features/Education_Reform_Alternative

They seem to be bad ideas since the proposed education=* tags are redundant
over the existing amenity=school/kindergarten/university... tags.

So I thought it would be good to use these education=* tags together with a
new tag for education outside school only, for example,
amenity=educational_service.

However, the proposal pages say:
>  There has been arguements not to make a amenity
=*

for everything that exists on the planet.

I don't know the reason why we should not use amenity=* too much. If you
have time, please let me know.

Takayuki Ishino
yumean1...@gmail.com
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