Re: [Tagging] Wiki: Key:level: proposed rewrite
Level should be the layers relative to the (lowest) ground, regardless of how that's defined in the building, for consistency sake. As often as not here, 1 is either the second floor off the ground or the ground floor, with G being Ground. Granted, this gets a little tricker, with complex examples, such as Doernbecher Children's Hospital, which has no 2nd or 4th floor (really, there's actually a gap only attached by elevator shaft and stairwells!), with floors 1, 3, and 9 being ground level. Or University Hospital South at Oregon Health Sciences University, in which floors 1, 8 and 9 are ground level (with 8 connecting to Doernbecher's 8th floor, and the Portland VA's third floor). On Sun, May 24, 2015 at 9:56 PM, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: On 25 May 2015 at 01:52, Andrew Errington erringt...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, I object. level=* is an internal value. Its meaning is absolute, which is necessary because it is used worldwide. When the value is displayed, the displaying software should localise the result according to either the viewer's language, or viewer's location. Perhaps you are not aware that in some places what British people call ground floor is called first floor. However, it is still the same floor, so it's appropriate to tag it the same (level=0). The numbers are not meaningless. They are clearly defined in the wiki. OSM is for humans - humans need to understand it. Level with ref to buildings equates to 'floor'. Floors have names such as 4th Floor and often signed as 4. Software should not need to make a conversion as none is necessary - OSM 'level' should equate to the floor name as used by the building operators. I note you're going for floor 1 = level 0 - which is clearly silly. I am aware of the US/UK numbering differences - an ideal illustration for not having an 'internal' scheme but to simply apply the correct label for the floor for that locality. I don't see why the Americans would be expected to specify level 1 for the second floor - there's no logic to that. In your 'numeric' scheme, how do you deal with 'missing' floors ? (e.g. G,1,2,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11 ?) In 'my' naming scheme, there isn't a missing floor with that set of names. Are you expecting to do a local conversion for level 3 upwards ? Surely naming is simpler - no confusion and labelling matches what people find on the site. Which floor is 'ground floor' ? the lower one, the upper one or one in the middle ? Look at the following example building with 5 floors: L2 L1 L0 -- ground floor G1 G2 -- ground floor -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki: Key:level: proposed rewrite
-- Original message --From: ba...@ursamundi.orgSent: 26/05/2015 12:07To: tagging@openstreetmap.orgSubject: Re: [Tagging] Wiki: Key:level: proposed rewriteLevel should be the layers relative to the (lowest) ground, regardless of how thats defined in the building, for consistency sake. As often as not here, 1 is either the second floor off the ground or the ground floor, with G being Ground. Granted, this gets a little tricker, with complex examples, such as Doernbecher Childrens Hospital, which has no 2nd or 4th floor (really, theres actually a gap only attached by elevator shaft and stairwells!), with floors 1, 3, and 9 being ground level. Or University Hospital South at Oregon Health Sciences University, in which floors 1, 8 and 9 are ground level (with 8 connecting to Doernbechers 8th floor, and the Portland VAs third floor).On Sun, May 24, 2015 at 9:56 PM, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote:On 25 May 2015 at 01:52, Andrew Errington erringt...@gmail.com wrote:Yes, I object.level=* is an internal value. Its meaning is absolute, which is necessary because it is used worldwide. When the value is displayed, the displaying software should localise the result according to either the viewers language, or viewers location. Perhaps you are not aware that in some places what British people call ground floor is called first floor. However, it is still the same floor, so its appropriate to tag it the same (level=0).The numbers are not meaningless. They are clearly defined in the wiki.OSM is for humans - humans need to understand it. Level with ref to buildings equates to floor. Floors have names such as 4th Floor and often signed as 4. Software should not need to make a conversion as none is necessary - OSM level should equate to the floor name as used by the building operators.I note youre going for floor 1 = level 0 - which is clearly silly. I am aware of the US/UK numbering differences - an ideal illustration for not having an internal scheme but to simply apply the correct label for the floor for that locality. I dont see why the Americans would be expected to specify level 1 for the second floor - theres no logic to that.In your numeric scheme, how do you deal with missing floors ? (e.g. G,1,2,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11 ?) In my naming scheme, there isnt a missing floor with that set of names. Are you expecting to do a local conversion for level 3 upwards ?Surely naming is simpler - no confusion and labelling matches what people find on the site.Which floor is ground floor ? the lower one, the upper one or one in the middle ? Look at the following example building with 5 floors:L2L1L0 -- ground floorG1G2 -- ground floor-- Mike.@millomweb - For all your info on Millom and South Copelandvia the areas premier website - currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property petsTCs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki: Key:level: proposed rewrite
Did you forget to add any comments? On May 26, 2015 6:58:49 AM wp4...@gmail.com wrote: ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki: Key:level: proposed rewrite
2015-05-25 9:25 GMT+02:00 Michael Reichert naka...@gmx.net: Any objection if I 'rewrite http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:level ? It seems to have been written with the misconception that floor names are numbers when they're not. A rewrite: - Won't affect existing names that appear as numbers. - Will encourage mappers to use correct names for floors (as found in the building) rather than attempt to convert them to meaningless numbers. I do object as well because I'd expect you to post the concrete modifications you plan to apply. This way we can discuss if these changes are fine or not, and why. I oppose. Numeric level values can be used to display a building plan layer by layer where higher floors lay over lower floors. Most software which uses level=* at the moment expects that it is a numeric value. Well, the definition does explicitly name strings values: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:level#String_values so it doesn't seem to be against common standards to use them. Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Wiki: Key:level: proposed rewrite
Hi, Am 2015-05-25 um 01:41 schrieb pmailkeey .: Any objection if I 'rewrite http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:level ? It seems to have been written with the misconception that floor names are numbers when they're not. A rewrite: - Won't affect existing names that appear as numbers. - Will encourage mappers to use correct names for floors (as found in the building) rather than attempt to convert them to meaningless numbers. I oppose. Numeric level values can be used to display a building plan layer by layer where higher floors lay over lower floors. Most software which uses level=* at the moment expects that it is a numeric value. Example: https://youtu.be/qcB5CP-IkLg?t=17m12s If a building has named levels, you can still use numbers at OSM. (It's like our usage of layer=*) If you want that data users get the floor names, why don't you add a level:name=* tag, e.g. level:name=ground floor level=0 level:name=basement level=-1 level:name=underground parking level=-2 level:name=restaurant floor level=1? Please do not try to change the meaning of a frequently used tag. Best regards Michael -- Per E-Mail kommuniziere ich bevorzugt GPG-verschlüsselt. (Mailinglisten ausgenommen) I prefer GPG encryption of emails. (does not apply on mailing lists) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki: Key:level: proposed rewrite
No. If you were to do that you would need a scheme that defines the sequence. If you work with floor names, you need to define a table that assigns levels to names as well. The approach to count is correct and the base shold be that ground level is level 0. On 25 May 2015 at 01:41, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: Any objection if I 'rewrite http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:level ? It seems to have been written with the misconception that floor names are numbers when they're not. A rewrite: - Won't affect existing names that appear as numbers. - Will encourage mappers to use correct names for floors (as found in the building) rather than attempt to convert them to meaningless numbers. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki: Key:level: proposed rewrite
The floor level *order* will be clear from the ele(vation) tag, won't it. Hence no need for a new tag of level_name. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki: Key:level: proposed rewrite
On 25/05/2015, Michael Reichert naka...@gmx.net wrote: I oppose. Numeric level values can be used to display a building plan layer by layer where higher floors lay over lower floors. Most software which uses level=* at the moment expects that it is a numeric value. Example: https://youtu.be/qcB5CP-IkLg?t=17m12s If a building has named levels, you can still use numbers at OSM. (It's like our usage of layer=*) +1. There are two distinct needs : enabling software to sort levels for rendering and navigation purposes, and the need to show the textual name that humans expect. The level=* key is currently used for the fist case (otherwise you'd see a lot more text values in taginfo). If you want that data users get the floor names, why don't you add a level:name=* tag, e.g. Looked tempting at first, but I'm not sure I'm a fan: * It's brand new and never used before. * level=* tags are currently typically added to POIs inside the buldings. Keeping level:name in sync on all those nodes seems like an awful lot of tedious error-prone work. * We should be able to have an osm object representing the level itself, and tag that with a standard name=*. I won't pretend to be up to date with the various schemas for indoor mapping, but the type=site site=level relation seems quite idiomatic, and can be named as usual. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki: Key:level: proposed rewrite
On 25/05/2015, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: The floor level *order* will be clear from the ele(vation) tag, won't it. No. Since when has the ele=* tag been used for floors in a building? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki: Key:level: proposed rewrite
Using level = number would also mean you'd lose relative floor height information: Lifts (Elevators) Highest floor available Red Sky Lift – floor numbers correspond to the Main Building. 7 Blue Sky Lift – floor numbers correspond to the South Wing 10 or 11 North Wing 10 In the above example, one floor can be level 11, level 7 and level 10 depending in which part of the building you are. Clearly a simple numbering system doesn't indicate which floors are level with each other and only the ele tag would clarify this. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki: Key:level: proposed rewrite
On 25 May 2015 at 13:55, moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com wrote: On 25/05/2015, Michael Reichert naka...@gmx.net wrote: I oppose. Numeric level values can be used to display a building plan layer by layer where higher floors lay over lower floors. Most software which uses level=* at the moment expects that it is a numeric value. Example: https://youtu.be/qcB5CP-IkLg?t=17m12s If a building has named levels, you can still use numbers at OSM. (It's like our usage of layer=*) +1. There are two distinct needs : enabling software to sort levels for rendering and navigation purposes, and the need to show the textual name that humans expect. The level=* key is currently used for the fist case (otherwise you'd see a lot more text values in taginfo). Not necessarily as many buildings' floor names are numeric in nature. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki: Key:level: proposed rewrite
On 25 May 2015 at 14:08, Andrew Errington erringt...@gmail.com wrote: On 25/05/2015, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: The floor level *order* will be clear from the ele(vation) tag, won't it. No. Since when has the ele=* tag been used for floors in a building? What other tag do you propose to indicate vertical position then ? Why would we need another tag when ele fits this purpose? -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki: Key:level: proposed rewrite
elevation tag is not a good solution, as it requires a measurement that in most cases is difficult to obtain On 25 May 2015 at 14:49, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: The floor level *order* will be clear from the ele(vation) tag, won't it. Hence no need for a new tag of level_name. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki: Key:level: proposed rewrite
On 25/05/2015, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: There are two distinct needs : enabling software to sort levels for rendering and navigation purposes, and the need to show the textual name that humans expect. The level=* key is currently used for the fist case (otherwise you'd see a lot more text values in taginfo). Not necessarily as many buildings' floor names are numeric in nature. Out of 127k uses, the first non-numeric level=* value in taginfo is unknown (94 uses / 0.07%). Then come story_1 (44 uses), story_2 (32), from -1 to -2 (23), primary (17), secondary (16), blue (10) and finally UG (6). I think that if level=* was somewhat regularly used for the *name* of a floor, we'd see a lot more of Ground floor, Lobby or G. The idea that 4th floor gets abbreviated to 4 doesn't explain the values seen in taginfo. The only reason I see is that level=* is not a name but a synthetic value used for OSM internals, just like leyer=*. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki: Key:level: proposed rewrite
On 25/05/2015, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: Also knowing the street elevation would give the clue as to which floor was 'ground level' - as would a highway linking internal routes to external. You shouldn't focus on trying to determine the ground level, as there are many many buildings that have no reasonable unique answer to that. Just like with the layer tag, the important thing is to get the stacking order right, and coherent with the neaby data. When there's a clear ground level it's nice mnemotechnic to number it level=0, but that's optional. Routing and rendering, not labeling. Ele would at least tie in with 3D mapping whereas positional info is lost with 'level=' To me, ele=* associated to a particular floor sounds awfull. Is it the altitude of the floor ? Ceiling ? Eye-level ? 3D and indoor mapping is great, and I wish we had better tools and data model to represent it in OSM. ele=* could be used as a poor man's Z coordinate for 3d modeling, but please don't mix it with the concept of building floors. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki: Key:level: proposed rewrite
The level key is intended for OSM internal use, to tell routing and rendering software what connects to what. For indoor mapping, it would make sense to also have a way to name floors, which needs to allow for both numeric and non-numeric floor names. I have been in buildings that have more than one named floor. For example, one parking garage that I sometimes use has levels named Basement, Ground (ground level on one side of the building), 1 (ground level on the opposite side of the building), 2, 3, 4, and 5. On May 24, 2015 10:18:56 PM Andrew Errington erringt...@gmail.com wrote: It's highly likely that the street level floor would be named 'Ground' - so if software needs to know this, that would be a good starting point. It could also be worked out by which highway meets the street. That's funny. In your previous example no floor is named 'Ground'. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki: Key:level: proposed rewrite
2015-05-25 16:44 GMT+02:00 Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl: The ele tag specifically refers to the height above sea level. What we would want here is a height above ambient ground level. Overloading ele in this way would lead to untold confusion and be a recipe for disaster. yes (//nit-pick on: actually it is height in wgs84, to have a universal system for the globe, in practise we'll often have numbers that people read of a sign, and those are rarely in wgs84 but in a national height reference system (typically they use a height reference referring to the medium sea level for a given point of a sea relatively close to them //nit-pick off) In architecture you usually have the elevation of the finished ground floor (or raw, but the finished one is easier for mappers, or a given point on the road in front) at a given point (can be the main room, but can also be a point after the entrance, will depend on the situation / complexity of the building) referenced to the absolute height reference system. This will then be considered ±0,00 and everything else can be expressed as relative height refering to this local zero-point. IMHO we should do it similarly (at least in the editor, if there was perfect editor (and db) support for 3D it might also make sense to have everything in absolute heights and people could see local heights refering to arbitrary points they choose). Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki: Key:level: proposed rewrite
The ele tag specifically refers to the height above sea level. What we would want here is a height above ambient ground level. Overloading ele in this way would lead to untold confusion and be a recipe for disaster. //colin On 2015-05-25 15:29, pmailkeey . wrote: On 25 May 2015 at 14:08, Andrew Errington erringt...@gmail.com wrote: On 25/05/2015, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: The floor level *order* will be clear from the ele(vation) tag, won't it. No. Since when has the ele=* tag been used for floors in a building? What other tag do you propose to indicate vertical position then ? Why would we need another tag when ele fits this purpose? -- Mike. @millomweb [2] - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via THE AREA'S PREMIER WEBSITE - CURRENTLY UNAVAILABLE DUE TO ONGOING HARASSMENT OF ME, MY FAMILY, PROPERTY PETS TCs [3] ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging [1] Links: -- [1] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging [2] https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction [3] https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki: Key:level: proposed rewrite
On 25 May 2015 at 15:44, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote: The ele tag specifically refers to the height above sea level. What we would want here is a height above ambient ground level. Overloading ele in this way would lead to untold confusion and be a recipe for disaster. //colin Also knowing the street elevation would give the clue as to which floor was 'ground level' - as would a highway linking internal routes to external. Ele would at least tie in with 3D mapping whereas positional info is lost with 'level=' -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki: Key:level: proposed rewrite
On 5/25/15 1:20 PM, John Eldredge wrote: The level key is intended for OSM internal use, to tell routing and rendering software what connects to what. For indoor mapping, it would make sense to also have a way to name floors, which needs to allow for both numeric and non-numeric floor names. I have been in buildings that have more than one named floor. For example, one parking garage that I sometimes use has levels named Basement, Ground (ground level on one side of the building), 1 (ground level on the opposite side of the building), 2, 3, 4, and 5. quick example from downtown albany - the old Omni office building has B (basement), L (lobby), 1 through 12, P1 P2 (penthouse 1 2) the level key is very much internal and if indoor mapping ever is going to go anywhere, some provision for the names is important. richard -- rwe...@averillpark.net Averill Park Networking - GIS IT Consulting OpenStreetMap - PostgreSQL - Linux Java - Web Applications - Search signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki: Key:level: proposed rewrite
The ele tag is for indicating the elevation of an object above sea level. Not many people will know the elevation of each of a building's floors above sea level. On May 25, 2015 8:30:26 AM pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: On 25 May 2015 at 14:08, Andrew Errington erringt...@gmail.com wrote: On 25/05/2015, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: The floor level *order* will be clear from the ele(vation) tag, won't it. No. Since when has the ele=* tag been used for floors in a building? What other tag do you propose to indicate vertical position then ? Why would we need another tag when ele fits this purpose? -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail -- ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki: Key:level: proposed rewrite
Yes, I object. The purpose of the level tag is to tell routing and rendering software what the vertical order of objects is. It indicates what connects to what, and, if they don't connect, what renders above what. It is not intended to hold floor names. On May 24, 2015 6:42:03 PM pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: Any objection if I 'rewrite http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:level ? It seems to have been written with the misconception that floor names are numbers when they're not. A rewrite: - Won't affect existing names that appear as numbers. - Will encourage mappers to use correct names for floors (as found in the building) rather than attempt to convert them to meaningless numbers. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail -- ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki: Key:level: proposed rewrite
I, too, object. level=* is meant to be the numeric stacking order of floors/levels in a building. One redundant tag to level=* is addr:floor=*. This tag currently has the same definition as level=* (with the same numbering convention). I propose that we use addr:floor=* instead for your string level/floor name as that fits better with addressing schemes. On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 7:41 AM, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: Any objection if I 'rewrite http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:level ? It seems to have been written with the misconception that floor names are numbers when they're not. A rewrite: - Won't affect existing names that appear as numbers. - Will encourage mappers to use correct names for floors (as found in the building) rather than attempt to convert them to meaningless numbers. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki: Key:level: proposed rewrite
So if I'm right, it's 1 for changing the wiki page, and 12 (including me) opposed. Janko pon, 25. svi 2015. 20:10 John Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com je napisao: The ele tag is for indicating the elevation of an object above sea level. Not many people will know the elevation of each of a building's floors above sea level. On May 25, 2015 8:30:26 AM pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: On 25 May 2015 at 14:08, Andrew Errington erringt...@gmail.com wrote: On 25/05/2015, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: The floor level *order* will be clear from the ele(vation) tag, won't it. No. Since when has the ele=* tag been used for floors in a building? What other tag do you propose to indicate vertical position then ? Why would we need another tag when ele fits this purpose? -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Wiki: Key:level: proposed rewrite
Any objection if I 'rewrite http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:level ? It seems to have been written with the misconception that floor names are numbers when they're not. A rewrite: - Won't affect existing names that appear as numbers. - Will encourage mappers to use correct names for floors (as found in the building) rather than attempt to convert them to meaningless numbers. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki: Key:level: proposed rewrite
Yes, I object. level=* is an internal value. Its meaning is absolute, which is necessary because it is used worldwide. When the value is displayed, the displaying software should localise the result according to either the viewer's language, or viewer's location. Perhaps you are not aware that in some places what British people call ground floor is called first floor. However, it is still the same floor, so it's appropriate to tag it the same (level=0). The numbers are not meaningless. They are clearly defined in the wiki. Best wishes, Andrew On Monday, 25 May 2015, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: Any objection if I 'rewrite http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:level ? It seems to have been written with the misconception that floor names are numbers when they're not. A rewrite: - Won't affect existing names that appear as numbers. - Will encourage mappers to use correct names for floors (as found in the building) rather than attempt to convert them to meaningless numbers. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki: Key:level: proposed rewrite
I believe that level=* is not intended for direction finding but for 3D rendering. So, yes, it is an “internal value” which needs to be uniform through out the world. And for building rendering numerical values make much more sense than text. Pretty much like lanes=* or width=* need to be uniformly defined numeric values for the whole world. If a text value is needed, it is a lot easier to regionally map a uniform numeric value into a text string than taking any number of regional text strings and mapping them into a number for rendering building height. Cheers, Tod On May 24, 2015, at 8:05 PM, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: On 25 May 2015 at 03:53, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com mailto:61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: A person seeking something on level henry will not recognise OSM level numbers ... they want the name.. If OSM does not use names, but they are used within the wanted building .. then there will need to be a declared relationship between the two. So there needs to be a relation between the names used locally to the OSM level=number ? If OSM uses names then OSM will need a relationship between the names and which one is 'ground' and there respective order. It's highly likely that the street level floor would be named 'Ground' - so if software needs to know this, that would be a good starting point. It could also be worked out by which highway meets the street. Why would floor order be specifically required within OSM other than where they are related (e.g. stairs)? Why numerify a labelling system ? Floor 'numbers' have been obviously used for the convenience of the numerical symbols (like street address numbers - yet not all properties have a number some are named). Some floor labelling schemes are by colour code - and I've even come across animals used to identify a particular floor! (We parked on elephant level). So? A new tag to relate one to the other? level:name=1:henry ? the wiki http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:level#String_values http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:level#String_values has a mention of string values .. but NO real way of adding them in a usefull way.. nor is there any indication of how to use these tag on a map... as in rendering. For the given example above the indoor map should display the level name .. not the number .. And this could be used where the level numbering is not that used by OSM .. but using the level:name=0:1 could correctly display the correct local number wile retaining the OSM level system. Indoor .. a GPS will not be of much use .. so the 'indoor map' will need to be a good representation of what goes on. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via the area's premier website - currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki: Key:level: proposed rewrite
On 25/05/2015 1:18 PM, Andrew Errington wrote:
It's highly likely that the street level floor would be named 'Ground' - so
if software needs to know this, that would be a good starting point. It
could also be worked out by which highway meets the street.
That's funny. In your previous example no floor is named 'Ground'.
And for some buildings .. the true 'ground level' is a quite a slope ..
spanning some 4 'levels' of one building I know.
So the declaration of one level as 'ground' is fairly arbitrary.
On 25/05/2015 1:05 PM, pmailkeey . wrote:
Why would floor order be specifically required within OSM other than
where they are related (e.g. stairs)? Why numerify a labelling system ?
For navigation .. in the vertical plane?
E.G. Go up 2 floors to level henry.
Or for ordering or the vertical display (to ensure the levels are correctly
ordered from top to bottom (or the other way if your so inclined {pun}).
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Re: [Tagging] Wiki: Key:level: proposed rewrite
It's highly likely that the street level floor would be named 'Ground' - so if software needs to know this, that would be a good starting point. It could also be worked out by which highway meets the street. That's funny. In your previous example no floor is named 'Ground'. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki: Key:level: proposed rewrite
On 25 May 2015 at 01:52, Andrew Errington erringt...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, I object. level=* is an internal value. Its meaning is absolute, which is necessary because it is used worldwide. When the value is displayed, the displaying software should localise the result according to either the viewer's language, or viewer's location. Perhaps you are not aware that in some places what British people call ground floor is called first floor. However, it is still the same floor, so it's appropriate to tag it the same (level=0). The numbers are not meaningless. They are clearly defined in the wiki. OSM is for humans - humans need to understand it. Level with ref to buildings equates to 'floor'. Floors have names such as 4th Floor and often signed as 4. Software should not need to make a conversion as none is necessary - OSM 'level' should equate to the floor name as used by the building operators. I note you're going for floor 1 = level 0 - which is clearly silly. I am aware of the US/UK numbering differences - an ideal illustration for not having an 'internal' scheme but to simply apply the correct label for the floor for that locality. I don't see why the Americans would be expected to specify level 1 for the second floor - there's no logic to that. In your 'numeric' scheme, how do you deal with 'missing' floors ? (e.g. G,1,2,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11 ?) In 'my' naming scheme, there isn't a missing floor with that set of names. Are you expecting to do a local conversion for level 3 upwards ? Surely naming is simpler - no confusion and labelling matches what people find on the site. Which floor is 'ground floor' ? the lower one, the upper one or one in the middle ? Look at the following example building with 5 floors: L2 L1 L0 -- ground floor G1 G2 -- ground floor -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki: Key:level: proposed rewrite
On 25/05/2015 10:52 AM, Andrew Errington wrote: Yes, I object. level=* is an internal value. Its meaning is absolute, which is necessary because it is used worldwide. When the value is displayed, the displaying software should localise the result according to either the viewer's language, or viewer's location. Perhaps you are not aware that in some places what British people call ground floor is called first floor. However, it is still the same floor, so it's appropriate to tag it the same (level=0). The numbers are not meaningless. They are clearly defined in the wiki. Best wishes, Andrew On Monday, 25 May 2015, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com mailto:pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: Any objection if I 'rewrite http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:level ? It seems to have been written with the misconception that floor names are numbers when they're not. One group of buildings I know ... level 1 is the ground floor .. the buildings are 'named' by a letter as a prefix ... thus A211 would be building A , 2nd level (one floor above ground) and room/area 11. Thus it does not follow the OSM level numbering system of ground floor = level 0. See http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Simple_Indoor_Tagging for more on string values. A person seeking something on level henry will not recognise OSM level numbers ... they want the name.. If OSM does not use names, but they are used within the wanted building .. then there will need to be a declared relationship between the two. So there needs to be a relation between the names used locally to the OSM level=number ? If OSM uses names then OSM will need a relationship between the names and which one is 'ground' and there respective order. So? A new tag to relate one to the other? level:name=1:henry ? the wiki http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:level#String_values has a mention of string values .. but NO real way of adding them in a usefull way.. nor is there any indication of how to use these tag on a map... as in rendering. For the given example above the indoor map should display the level name .. not the number .. And this could be used where the level numbering is not that used by OSM .. but using the level:name=0:1 could correctly display the correct local number wile retaining the OSM level system. Indoor .. a GPS will not be of much use .. so the 'indoor map' will need to be a good representation of what goes on. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki: Key:level: proposed rewrite
On 25 May 2015 at 03:53, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: A person seeking something on level henry will not recognise OSM level numbers ... they want the name.. If OSM does not use names, but they are used within the wanted building .. then there will need to be a declared relationship between the two. So there needs to be a relation between the names used locally to the OSM level=number ? If OSM uses names then OSM will need a relationship between the names and which one is 'ground' and there respective order. It's highly likely that the street level floor would be named 'Ground' - so if software needs to know this, that would be a good starting point. It could also be worked out by which highway meets the street. Why would floor order be specifically required within OSM other than where they are related (e.g. stairs)? Why numerify a labelling system ? Floor 'numbers' have been obviously used for the convenience of the numerical symbols (like street address numbers - yet not all properties have a number some are named). Some floor labelling schemes are by colour code - and I've even come across animals used to identify a particular floor! (We parked on elephant level). So? A new tag to relate one to the other? level:name=1:henry ? the wiki http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:level#String_values has a mention of string values .. but NO real way of adding them in a usefull way.. nor is there any indication of how to use these tag on a map... as in rendering. For the given example above the indoor map should display the level name .. not the number .. And this could be used where the level numbering is not that used by OSM .. but using the level:name=0:1 could correctly display the correct local number wile retaining the OSM level system. Indoor .. a GPS will not be of much use .. so the 'indoor map' will need to be a good representation of what goes on. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
