Re: [Tagging] Wind turbines: big and small
We could also tag whether they are horizontal axis (windmill-style) or vertical-axis (Savonius rotor) turbines. This could be helpful for people looking for landmarks, as the two types look very different. __John ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wind turbines: big and small
2013/10/8 fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com I know buildings on steep areas which have two different ground levels so simply building height is really difficult. this is actually common, you will very often have different levels around a building, also in more or less even terrain. The solution for architects is to define a zero-level, sometimes you'd use the level of the road (a given measurement point with known height level) from where the main entrance is and other entrances will be on +1 or -1 floor (or even more). According to German law it is the natural ground to take into account (if you're in a built-up area it will already be defined what is the ground-level). This level will be defined in the site plan, and all other plans usually refer to this level, generally by using the (planned) finished floor level of the ground level as 0.00 for reference in the planning set (and with absolute reference for this level in the national height system). The ground level might often be defined by the local authorities in order to avoid cheating about the maximum ammissible height or number of overground floors. This is a really import setting for building a structure, as it will very often define how high you can build, so there will often be an official definition for this. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Wind turbines: big and small
Hi all, One of the things I noticed at SOTM was that the Aston campus has two little wind turbines, perched on top of some of the buildings. They're quite small, yet the standard OSM style shows them even at zoom level 15, as if they're significant landmarks: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=52.4849mlon=-1.8899#map=15/52.4849/-1.8899 The relevant tags on these items are generator:source = wind power = generator power_source = wind I've no problem with them being rendered, but I'd suggest it'd be better to show them only at finer zoom levels. However, as far as I can tell our renderers don't have much choice, because there's no tagging that distinguishes a tiny building-mounted turbine from a massive free-standing turbine. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:generator:source%3Dwind In open areas with wind-farms, the turbines are significant landmarks, so I can see it makes sense to render them then. I'm suggesting this is not a problem we can leave for the renderer, since the renderer doesn't know the turbine's significance - it doesn't know if the turbine is 5 feet high or 50 feet high. (This implies that tagging the height could be a solution... might be a bit tricky to get correct height data though...) Best Dan ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wind turbines: big and small
2013/10/7 Dan S danstowell+...@gmail.com (This implies that tagging the height could be a solution... might be a bit tricky to get correct height data though...) What if the wind turbine is on the roof of a buildinghttps://www.google.hr/search?q=wind+turbine+on+the+roof? That would still be high (because we tag height from the ground, not just the height of the wind turbine). Actually, all small wind turbines are usually high https://www.google.hr/search?q=small+wind+turbine. The solutions Martin suggested seem better (rotor diameter, power output), but are even harder to get. Landmark seems a bit like a tag for renderer solution to me, but it doesn't seem harmful. Another solution comes to mind. What if we started tagging values with and ? Like diameter=5. Janko ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wind turbines: big and small
On 10/7/13 9:12 AM, Janko Mihelic' wrote: What if the wind turbine is on the roof of a building https://www.google.hr/search?q=wind+turbine+on+the+roof? That would still be high (because we tag height from the ground, not just the height of the wind turbine). Actually, all small wind turbines are usually high https://www.google.hr/search?q=small+wind+turbine. The solutions Martin suggested seem better (rotor diameter, power output), but are even harder to get. Landmark seems a bit like a tag for renderer solution to me, but it doesn't seem harmful. Another solution comes to mind. What if we started tagging values with and ? Like diameter=5. or just something that's sort of observable like large and small i've only really seen two general sizes with nothing in between. large and small might be good enough for our purposes. richard signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wind turbines: big and small
On 07.10.2013 15:12, Janko Mihelić wrote: 2013/10/7 Dan S danstowell+...@gmail.com mailto:danstowell+...@gmail.com (This implies that tagging the height could be a solution... might be a bit tricky to get correct height data though...) What if the wind turbine is on the roof of a building https://www.google.hr/search?q=wind+turbine+on+the+roof? That would still be high (because we tag height from the ground, not just the height of the wind turbine). Actually, all small wind turbines are usually high https://www.google.hr/search?q=small+wind+turbine. Please note, we have ele=* for elevation (ground level) and height=* (height of the object). So tagging a turbine on the roof you would have ele=elevation of building + height of building and height would be little more than the diametre I guess. cu fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wind turbines: big and small
2013/10/7 fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com Please note, we have ele=* for elevation (ground level) and height=* (height of the object). So tagging a turbine on the roof you would have ele=elevation of building + height of building and height would be little more than the diametre I guess. Well, this is not completely clear. Why not: ele is the ground elevation (a building is not the ground), so ele won't become the elevation of the buildings roof, so when you tag a wind turbine on a building you would have to add ele and building height and wind turbine height to get the upper top of the wind turbine? cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wind turbines: big and small
On 10/07/2013 12:33 PM, Janko Mihelic' wrote: Dana ponedjeljak, 7. listopada 2013., korisnik flylowfligh...@googlemail.com mailto:lowfligh...@googlemail.com je napisao: On 07.10.2013 15:12, Janko Mihelic' wrote: 2013/10/7 Dan S danstowell+...@gmail.com mailto:danstowell%2b...@gmail.com mailto:danstowell+...@gmail.com mailto:danstowell%2b...@gmail.com (This implies that tagging the height could be a solution... might be a bit tricky to get correct height data though...) What if the wind turbine is on the roof of a building https://www.google.hr/search?q=wind+turbine+on+the+roof? That would still be high (because we tag height from the ground, not just the height of the wind turbine). Actually, all small wind turbines are usually high https://www.google.hr/search?q=small+wind+turbine. Please note, we have ele=* for elevation (ground level) and height=* (height of the object). So tagging a turbine on the roof you would have ele=elevation of building + height of building and height would be little more than the diametre I guess. Wiki says ele is height of ground above sea level, and height is height of the highest point of an object above ground. But there is min_height for height of lowest point of an object above ground. See here: http://wiki.osm.org/wiki/File:Minlevel.svg Janko ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging As far as I know, we don't have a standard method for tagging the height of an object mounted on top of another object, as distinct from the combined heights of the objects above ground, or the elevation above sea level of the base of the object. There are likely to be other cases, in addition to wind turbines, where this distinction would be useful. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wind turbines: big and small
Dana ponedjeljak, 7. listopada 2013., korisnik John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com je napisao: As far as I know, we don't have a standard method for tagging the height of an object mounted on top of another object, as distinct from the combined heights of the objects above ground, or the elevation above sea level of the base of the object. There are likely to be other cases, in addition to wind turbines, where this distinction would be useful. I think we have a method. Say we have a 20 meter building with a 3 meter wind turbine on the roof. You would have an area tagged with building=yes + height=20 and a node tagged with power=generator + generator:source=wind + height=23 + min_height=20. It's a question if a power=generator represents the whole tower or just the generator. I would maybe add a man_made=tower to all wind turbines to remove any doubt. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wind turbines: big and small
This ele / height discussion might show we need a simple tagging scheme to distinguish wind turbines that can be seen as a landmark. Yves Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com a écrit : Dana ponedjeljak, 7. listopada 2013., korisnik John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com je napisao: As far as I know, we don't have a standard method for tagging the height of an object mounted on top of another object, as distinct from the combined heights of the objects above ground, or the elevation above sea level of the base of the object. There are likely to be other cases, in addition to wind turbines, where this distinction would be useful. I think we have a method. Say we have a 20 meter building with a 3 meter wind turbine on the roof. You would have an area tagged with building=yes + height=20 and a node tagged with power=generator + generator:source=wind + height=23 + min_height=20. It's a question if a power=generator represents the whole tower or just the generator. I would maybe add a man_made=tower to all wind turbines to remove any doubt. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Envoyé de mon téléphone Android avec K-9 Mail. Excusez la brièveté.___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wind turbines: big and small
On 07.10.2013 21:13, Janko Mihelić wrote: Dana ponedjeljak, 7. listopada 2013., korisnik John F. Eldredgej...@jfeldredge.com mailto:j...@jfeldredge.com je napisao: As far as I know, we don't have a standard method for tagging the height of an object mounted on top of another object, as distinct from the combined heights of the objects above ground, or the elevation above sea level of the base of the object. There are likely to be other cases, in addition to wind turbines, where this distinction would be useful. I think we have a method. Say we have a 20 meter building with a 3 meter wind turbine on the roof. You would have an area tagged with building=yes + height=20 and a node tagged with power=generator + generator:source=wind + height=23 + min_height=20. No, if it is mounted on top I would say height=3 for the object. min_height is only used for building:part but not for explicit tagged objects on top of another object. Please use ele=* to specify the elevation. It's a question if a power=generator represents the whole tower or just the generator. I would maybe add a man_made=tower to all wind turbines to remove any doubt. And you tag the height of the mast/tower or the height of the generator ? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wind turbines: big and small
2013/10/7 Yves yve...@gmail.com This ele / height discussion might show we need a simple tagging scheme to distinguish wind turbines that can be seen as a landmark. we have this: landmark=yes cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wind turbines: big and small
On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 11:05 AM, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.comwrote: As far as I know, we don't have a standard method for tagging the height of an object mounted on top of another object, as distinct from the combined heights of the objects above ground, or the elevation above sea level of the base of the object. There are likely to be other cases, in addition to wind turbines, where this distinction would be useful. It seems that small and large are too granular for the complexities of wind turbines. Wikipedia has numerous sizes of wind turbines. There is a classification for small, 100kw or less wind turbines, but it is not related to physical size, just power output. Tagging wind turbines should have room for type, tower height, rotor and hub size and power output. -- Clifford OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wind turbines: big and small
Dana ponedjeljak, 7. listopada 2013., korisnik fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com je napisao: No, if it is mounted on top I would say height=3 for the object. min_height is only used for building:part but not for explicit tagged objects on top of another object. Please use ele=* to specify the elevation. With your logic, if a building has underground floors, they should be counted into the height, don't you think so? Anyway, wiki isn't clear on this at all, there's obviously some work to do. It's only clear with ele being elevation of ground over sea level, even if it's tagged on a node like man_made=tower. It's a question if a power=generator represents the whole tower or just the generator. I would maybe add a man_made=tower to all wind turbines to remove any doubt. And you tag the height of the mast/tower or the height of the generator ? The top of the highest point of the structure (top of the blade in the highest position). That's my proposal. Janko ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wind turbines: big and small
On 07/10/2013 22:40, Clifford Snow wrote: It seems that small and large are too granular for the complexities of wind turbines. Wikipedia has numerous sizes of wind turbines. There is a classification for small, 100kw or less wind turbines, but it is not related to physical size, just power output. Tagging wind turbines should have room for type, tower height, rotor and hub size and power output. Maybe we shouldn't tag such small wind turbines as power=generator as they hardly count as power infrastructure. My suggestion is man_made=small_generator or something like that for (could also apply to rooftop solar panels). Ole ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wind turbines: big and small
2013/10/7 Ole Nielsen on-...@xs4all.nl Maybe we shouldn't tag such small wind turbines as power=generator as they hardly count as power infrastructure. My suggestion is man_made=small_generator or something like that for (could also apply to rooftop solar panels). Don't agree. The power generation model has been refined especially for that. If the device produce power, it should be tagged as power=generator, even it's small. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Power_generation_refinement#Solar_thermal_energy No need to create new values in man_made for that. *François Lacombe* francois dot lacombe At telecom-bretagne dot eu http://www.infos-reseaux.com __**_ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.**org/listinfo/tagginghttps://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wind turbines: big and small
2013/10/7 Ole Nielsen on-...@xs4all.nl Maybe we shouldn't tag such small wind turbines as power=generator as they hardly count as power infrastructure. -1, it is already done like this (also for solar power) and there is no reason why they shouldn't count as power infrastructure. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wind turbines: big and small
On 07.10.2013 22:53, Janko Mihelić wrote: Dana ponedjeljak, 7. listopada 2013., korisnik flylowfligh...@googlemail.com mailto:lowfligh...@googlemail.com je napisao: No, if it is mounted on top I would say height=3 for the object. min_height is only used for building:part but not for explicit tagged objects on top of another object. Please use ele=* to specify the elevation. With your logic, if a building has underground floors, they should be counted into the height, don't you think so? Mmh the underground is a real difficult problem but no, I do not want to dig and measure the height of the mast. I know buildings on steep areas which have two different ground levels so simply building height is really difficult. To state it: 1. define/tag ele=* for the object (ground) 2. measure the maxheight from this point - height=* 3. do this for each object individually (eg. an object on top of another one gets a different ele=* and its height. For underground we would need a new tag. Anyway, wiki isn't clear on this at all, there's obviously some work to do. It's only clear with ele being elevation of ground over sea level, even if it's tagged on a node like man_made=tower. cu fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
