Re: [Tagging] access=student and entrance=inter-building: comments?
On 08.06.2015 08:52, johnw wrote: A month or so ago, new entrance=types came up, and I thought I had a couple new values for entrance. I’ve been thinking about them, and had these two ideas. Please comment on both. 1) Access=student - access designated for students of a school/facility, similar to customers of a shop or visitors of a facility. Does not imply age or gender, though it is used at mostly at K-12 facilities. For use with entrance=* or possibly with certain school amenities (Locker rooms, bathrooms, bicycle parking). Why not a more generic value like access=attendee? This could also be used for parking places designated for conference, sports or church attendees. We are also still missing a value representing a superset of delivery/guests/employees/customers/students/etc. I mean all that are involved in the facility in some way. In German speaking countries, many roads are designated for Anliegerverkehr or Anrainerverkehr, which means all persons who intend contact to abutters. This differs from access=destination, which also includes people who intend to just walk around, and on the other hand excludes owners driving through. 2) entrance=inter-building - an entrance that is designated for only moving between buildings in a facility, even if physically accessible from outside. Usually on the ends of an outdoor walkway considered “indoors because of cultural custom rather than physical access restriction (IE: indoor shoes required). Not to be used on normal outdoor pathway entrances. The term inter-building seems too narrow to me. I guess you could also use the entrance to have a cigarette, then return to the same building. Some smoking areas or terraces are not connected to another building at all. We could think about some access=* tag like access=checked-in, but this would get us to mapping processes instead of geographical data. I think that specifying one entrance=main is sufficient for everyday needs. Those who are familiar with the facility already know which entrance when to use, and those who are not should head to the main entrance. -- Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] access=student and entrance=inter-building: comments?
I think we should focus on the shoes, and not on the students and inter-buildings. Maybe there are some international suuchools in Japan where you can walk in shoes, and have an entrance for students. How would you tag that? You need a tag like access:shoes=no for inter-building passages and/or doors, and access:shoes=locker for entrances where there is a locker on the other side. čet, 11. lip 2015. 12:06 Friedrich Volkmann b...@volki.at je napisao: On 08.06.2015 08:52, johnw wrote: A month or so ago, new entrance=types came up, and I thought I had a couple new values for entrance. I’ve been thinking about them, and had these two ideas. Please comment on both. 1) Access=student - access designated for students of a school/facility, similar to customers of a shop or visitors of a facility. Does not imply age or gender, though it is used at mostly at K-12 facilities. For use with entrance=* or possibly with certain school amenities (Locker rooms, bathrooms, bicycle parking). Why not a more generic value like access=attendee? This could also be used for parking places designated for conference, sports or church attendees. We are also still missing a value representing a superset of delivery/guests/employees/customers/students/etc. I mean all that are involved in the facility in some way. In German speaking countries, many roads are designated for Anliegerverkehr or Anrainerverkehr, which means all persons who intend contact to abutters. This differs from access=destination, which also includes people who intend to just walk around, and on the other hand excludes owners driving through. 2) entrance=inter-building - an entrance that is designated for only moving between buildings in a facility, even if physically accessible from outside. Usually on the ends of an outdoor walkway considered “indoors because of cultural custom rather than physical access restriction (IE: indoor shoes required). Not to be used on normal outdoor pathway entrances. The term inter-building seems too narrow to me. I guess you could also use the entrance to have a cigarette, then return to the same building. Some smoking areas or terraces are not connected to another building at all. We could think about some access=* tag like access=checked-in, but this would get us to mapping processes instead of geographical data. I think that specifying one entrance=main is sufficient for everyday needs. Those who are familiar with the facility already know which entrance when to use, and those who are not should head to the main entrance. -- Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] access=student and entrance=inter-building: comments?
2015-06-11 14:36 GMT+02:00 Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com: I think we should focus on the shoes, and not on the students and inter-buildings. Maybe there are some international suuchools in Japan where you can walk in shoes, and have an entrance for students. How would you tag that? You need a tag like access:shoes=no for inter-building passages and/or doors, and access:shoes=locker for entrances where there is a locker on the other side. +1, shoe access is important in other context as well (e.g. mosques) Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] access=student and entrance=inter-building: comments?
A month or so ago, new entrance=types came up, and I thought I had a couple new values for entrance. I’ve been thinking about them, and had these two ideas. Please comment on both. 1) Access=student - access designated for students of a school/facility, similar to customers of a shop or visitors of a facility. Does not imply age or gender, though it is used at mostly at K-12 facilities. For use with entrance=* or possibly with certain school amenities (Locker rooms, bathrooms, bicycle parking). 2) entrance=inter-building - an entrance that is designated for only moving between buildings in a facility, even if physically accessible from outside. Usually on the ends of an outdoor walkway considered “indoors because of cultural custom rather than physical access restriction (IE: indoor shoes required). Not to be used on normal outdoor pathway entrances. Rationale: In Japan, all schools (greater than 99%) have a separate student entrance. It is usually very large (or leads to a large entrance hall), as all people have to change shoes, so there are hundreds of shoe lockers just for the enrolled students. Teachers have a separate shoe locker set, as well as for for visitors. There is also a separate Main entrance, and some large schools have separate teachers and visitors entrances. While the visitors and teachers (employees) access is easily represented by existing access tags, “students” is not. And specifying by age range is not ideal, as a) we don’t have to specify the age of other entrances, and b) it’s a title - like visitor or employee or customer - which is very often the basis of access=*. And access=customers is a very common access type when dealing with different “titles” of people accessing a shop (ie: a private parking lot vs a customer parking lot), so access=students should follow the same theme when applied to entrance=yes. “students” are the “customers” of schools, in some ways, but not in others, so I want a separate tag. To illustrate the situation, I uploaded a picture of my school to flickr, as it is difficult to find pictures on the web that show the three types of entrances *together* found at all Japanese primary, secondary, and high schools (we’re talking hundreds of thousands of entrances here, not one or two). https://www.flickr.com/photos/javbw/18580176942/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/javbw/18580176942/ On the far left is the “student” entrance. This is where attending students are required to enter the school. Besides special events, Only students use this entrance. Because our school is a bit small, the entrance is not so big, but larger schools have very large entrances / entrance halls. On the far right, standard entrance=yes/main. Employees, guests, parents, use that entrance day to day. Again, because our school is small, they are close together. Other places have different entrances for each grade of student, and teacher / main entrances on opposite sides of the building. The middle entrance (with the tile walkway) is an inter-building pathway with an inter-building entrance. Because of the Japanese (Asian?) style of changing shoes when entering schools and many non-retail buildings, there is a very strict divide between “indoors” and “outdoors” - even when there are many many buildings with walkways open to the air or from building to building. This tile walkway is considered “inside”. While physically accessible, This entrance is not for people to access the school - it is for inter-building access only. After entering the school normally, anyone can use the inter-building entrance, so there is no inherent access=private or similar - especially since access=private means an entrance you can’t use - where as this is one you CAN use - to move only from building to building. Now, with only two buildings, tagging /mapping such a walk or entrance at my school is not so important. But large schools, buildings, and historic places (Japanese castles, palaces, temples, etc) have many covered walkways and entrances to buildings that are physically accessible, but not from “the outside” - You are able to freely move around (access=customer, permissive, or whatever) - but only if you have entered and changed your shoes. When tracing imagery of Japanese schools, these walkways and entrances are easily seen/inferred (the walkways between buildings are always covered, whereas normal footpaths are not) - and often times an amenity building will have a inter-building entrance and a separate entrance=main (like a school’s gym, performance hall, or other venue) - where students “inside” and visitors “outside” access the same facility through different entrances for an event. So I want some feedback on access=student and entrance=inter-building to refine my thinking. Perhaps entrance=student is more in line with entrance=main, service, etc. Javbw___ Tagging
Re: [Tagging] access=student and entrance=inter-building: comments?
Hi, I guess I need a solution for the path access too - because access=private also seems an incorrect label - or would both be covered by access=inder-building ? just out of curiosity, what would happen if you *did* use it as an entrance *before* using the main entrance? -nik signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] access=student and entrance=inter-building: comments?
Hi, 1) Access=student - access designated for students of a school/facility, similar to customers of a shop or visitors of a facility. Does not imply age or gender, though it is used at mostly at K-12 facilities. For use with entrance=* or possibly with certain school amenities (Locker rooms, bathrooms, bicycle parking). Sounds useful, but somehow I see a way that people might forget about the „designated“ part, using the tag for for entrances that may be used by students *and* other personnel, which would make the entrance essentially access=private isntead. 2) entrance=inter-building - an entrance that is designated for only moving between buildings in a facility, even if physically accessible from outside. Usually on the ends of an outdoor walkway considered “indoors because of cultural custom rather than physical access restriction (IE: indoor shoes required). Not to be used on normal outdoor pathway entrances. Is this about entrance usage or about shoes? If it is about shoes, then this seems to matter more for the inter-building *path* than for the entrance itself. -nik signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] access=student and entrance=inter-building: comments?
On Jun 8, 2015, at 5:50 PM, Dominik George n...@naturalnet.de wrote: Hi, 1) Access=student - access designated for students of a school/facility, similar to customers of a shop or visitors of a facility. Does not imply age or gender, though it is used at mostly at K-12 facilities. For use with entrance=* or possibly with certain school amenities (Locker rooms, bathrooms, bicycle parking). Sounds useful, but somehow I see a way that people might forget about the „designated“ part, using the tag for for entrances that may be used by students *and* other personnel, which would make the entrance essentially access=private instead. We’re talking about the entrances used by several million students every day. What would happen if we forgot about the designated” nature access=customers? 2) entrance=inter-building - an entrance that is designated for only moving between buildings in a facility, even if physically accessible from outside. Usually on the ends of an outdoor walkway considered “indoors because of cultural custom rather than physical access restriction (IE: indoor shoes required). Not to be used on normal outdoor pathway entrances. Is this about entrance usage or about shoes? If it is about shoes, then this seems to matter more for the inter-building *path* than for the entrance itself. I’m not saying about you need to have “inside shoes on the path… cars drive over it. I’m saying that the entrance, though accessible from the driveway like the others, is not to be used except for inter-building foot traffic. This is because of a custom of separating inside-ouside, leading to extremely common walkways that are easily visible, mappable - and entrances that are accessible and visible, but you cannot use - until you have entered the structure. They are not one-way, as they are entrance/exits - once you start inside. besides schools, this happens in temples, hospitals, and other places. So these entrances are used by the same people - all the people - who just entered into entrance=yes or main - so putting entrance=yes+access=private seems wrong - so I’m looking for a way to tag a entrance as “yeah, you can use it after went through the entrance=yes/main” I guess I need a solution for the path access too - because access=private also seems an incorrect label - or would both be covered by access=inder-building ? Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] access=student and entrance=inter-building: comments?
On Jun 8, 2015, at 8:05 PM, Dominik George n...@naturalnet.de wrote: Hi, I guess I need a solution for the path access too - because access=private also seems an incorrect label - or would both be covered by access=inder-building ? just out of curiosity, what would happen if you *did* use it as an entrance *before* using the main entrance? Well, if it is an accident, the students would point at the other entrance, and you'd immediately start bowing and backing up and repeating how sorry you were, then go in the other door(s). If it were on purpose (aka - I don't need to go through the marked entrance and go through shoe ceremony), and you were a visitor or guest there, it would be as rude as umm... peeing in the kitchen sink at a house you're visiting, while the owner looks on disapprovingly - to some, it would be like pooping in the floor like an animal. As soon as you go in through the main entrance - where the ritual of removing your outside shoes is performed, and the visitor steps up onto the raised floor signifying the inside - then it's business as normal for as long as you are inside - you can go anywhere considered inside - along these inter-building pathways to go to any other building. Most Japanese people have a pair of inside shoes they use for when they go to visit a place (lets say for a school event or an event at a sports hall), and expect slippers to be provided at some places or situations, like the dentist, chiropractor, or stopping by to visit a teacher at school. My feet are big (30cm) - so no slipper fits me, so I walk around in my socks, which is probably worse in reality than my shoes, but the proper and expected thing to do to be respectful. Beverage deliverymen who use the inter-building pathways to access vending machines directly (some schools have a couple hundred meters of it that connects many buildings, so there are vending machines along the path) - they bypass all the ceremony leave their outside shoes next to the (in my example) tile walkway or the door I'm trying to label, and complete the restocking job in socks, as that is their compromise to do the job ASAP, but still show their respect for the inside. It is about the shoes somewhat, - but its brought about because you are properly entering and showing respect for the inside of the location - and that showing respect for the inside is the whole point - the shoes bit is a result of the showing respect goal. I hope that helps a bit. Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] access=student and entrance=inter-building: comments?
Hi, I hope that helps a bit. yeah, thanks for the detailed explanation. I learnt a lot about an exciting foreign culture today! As for the tagging, there definitely should be something, and on first glance, I do not see an issue with the access=inter_building idea. -nik signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
