Re: [Tagging] different access restrictions for different entrances to an area
2011/10/31 Anthony o...@inbox.org: On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 6:06 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: IMHO the by far most often occuring situation are exit gates that can be used only in case of an emergency (but then by everyone, not only emergency services). How is that enforced? http://www.google.it/search?q=panikbeschlaghs=XmVchannel=csprmd=imvnstbm=ischtbo=usource=univsa=Xei=bbOvTsDeJcqOswa6tKVlved=0CD8QsAQbiw=1366bih=658sei=%20crOvTr3JB8vRsgbUyqRs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] different access restrictions for different entrances to an area
On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 12:51 PM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: What I see often is a gate that can be entered only by residents with a key card (and by emergency vehicles) but exited by anyone (it lifts after sensing a vehicle). Yes, although there is sometimes a gate in the back with no regular key card access (it might even be padlocked) which is not for regular use. It would be a shame if both these and those normal residents only gates were tagged with the same access tags. Although, now that I think about it, the best solution for routers might just be to group sets of gates together with a relation, and let users manually select which sets of gates they have access keys for. There's still the one way problem, though. I think oneway=yes is probably correct, but the semantics of which way is which is ambiguous (even if you say it's based on the underlying way, is it oneway=yes in the direction the gate is locked, or oneway=yes in the direction it is unlocked?) I guess one hint would be that the access=private way would tend to be on the inside rather than the outside. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] different access restrictions for different entrances to an area
On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 8:52 AM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: There's still the one way problem, though. I think oneway=yes is probably correct, but the semantics of which way is which is ambiguous (even if you say it's based on the underlying way, is it oneway=yes in the direction the gate is locked, or oneway=yes in the direction it is unlocked?) I guess one hint would be that the access=private way would tend to be on the inside rather than the outside. Hmm...that just makes things potentially even more confusing though. If the way is split at the gate node, then the two ways might not even be pointing in the same direction. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] different access restrictions for different entrances to an area
2011/10/28 Anthony o...@inbox.org: Granted, this does raise issues. Besides the fact that oneway=yes on a barrier=gate is not well defined, there isn't, to my knowledge, a way to distinguish requires code or clicker which is given to residents from only accessible by maintenance personnel (and possibly emergency services). And both seem to me to be a somewhat common situation. IMHO the by far most often occuring situation are exit gates that can be used only in case of an emergency (but then by everyone, not only emergency services). This might merit its own tag maybe (emergency_exit). cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] different access restrictions for different entrances to an area
On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 6:06 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2011/10/28 Anthony o...@inbox.org: Granted, this does raise issues. Besides the fact that oneway=yes on a barrier=gate is not well defined, there isn't, to my knowledge, a way to distinguish requires code or clicker which is given to residents from only accessible by maintenance personnel (and possibly emergency services). And both seem to me to be a somewhat common situation. IMHO the by far most often occuring situation are exit gates that can be used only in case of an emergency (but then by everyone, not only emergency services). How is that enforced? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] different access restrictions for different entrances to an area
On 10/31/2011 6:06 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 2011/10/28 Anthonyo...@inbox.org: Granted, this does raise issues. Besides the fact that oneway=yes on a barrier=gate is not well defined, there isn't, to my knowledge, a way to distinguish requires code or clicker which is given to residents from only accessible by maintenance personnel (and possibly emergency services). And both seem to me to be a somewhat common situation. IMHO the by far most often occuring situation are exit gates that can be used only in case of an emergency (but then by everyone, not only emergency services). This might merit its own tag maybe (emergency_exit). What I see often is a gate that can be entered only by residents with a key card (and by emergency vehicles) but exited by anyone (it lifts after sensing a vehicle). ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] different access restrictions for different entrances to an area
On 10/26/2011 05:49 AM, Anthony wrote: The part about once you're inside... is, in my opinion, a red herring. Once you're inside, the assumption is that you must have had permission to be there in order to have gotten there. This is true of any access=private road I can think of. There could be multiple exit gates, some that anyone can exit through, some of which require a code or clicker. -Bryce ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] different access restrictions for different entrances to an area
On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 10:53 AM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: On 10/26/2011 05:49 AM, Anthony wrote: The part about once you're inside... is, in my opinion, a red herring. Once you're inside, the assumption is that you must have had permission to be there in order to have gotten there. This is true of any access=private road I can think of. There could be multiple exit gates, some that anyone can exit through, some of which require a code or clicker. The access tag on the road (the way) is separate from the access tag on the gate (the node). The former refers to who can use the road. The latter refers to who can open the gate. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] different access restrictions for different entrances to an area
On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 12:56 PM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 10:53 AM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: On 10/26/2011 05:49 AM, Anthony wrote: The part about once you're inside... is, in my opinion, a red herring. Once you're inside, the assumption is that you must have had permission to be there in order to have gotten there. This is true of any access=private road I can think of. There could be multiple exit gates, some that anyone can exit through, some of which require a code or clicker. The access tag on the road (the way) is separate from the access tag on the gate (the node). The former refers to who can use the road. The latter refers to who can open the gate. Granted, this does raise issues. Besides the fact that oneway=yes on a barrier=gate is not well defined, there isn't, to my knowledge, a way to distinguish requires code or clicker which is given to residents from only accessible by maintenance personnel (and possibly emergency services). And both seem to me to be a somewhat common situation. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] different access restrictions for different entrances to an area
On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 9:41 PM, Stephen Hope slh...@gmail.com wrote: I've seen a similar case to the problem you described elsewhere, though. There's a complex I've been to where only vehicles with a key/transponder of some sort can use most of the entrances. All other vehicles have to go through the main entrance, which (usually) has security personnel. Once you're inside, though, you can drive around and exit anywhere. So most of the entrances are restricted one way, but not the other. I'm not sure how you'd tag that, either. Sounds like the ways are access=private, and nodes where the gates meet the roadways (I assume there are gates?) are barrier=gate, oneway=yes. I'm basing the oneway=yes from http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Barrier#Examples, though it's not clear to me how the oneway part is supposed to be applied. That should be clarified. The part about once you're inside... is, in my opinion, a red herring. Once you're inside, the assumption is that you must have had permission to be there in order to have gotten there. This is true of any access=private road I can think of. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] different access restrictions for different entrances to an area
On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 8:49 AM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: Sounds like the ways are access=private, and nodes where the gates meet the roadways (I assume there are gates?) are barrier=gate, oneway=yes. barrier=gate, oneway=yes, access=private...and operator=* if you want to get fancy ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] different access restrictions for different entrances to an area
On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 9:16 AM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: On 10/25/2011 9:41 PM, Stephen Hope wrote: Have you actually driven through the roads, or just verified signs at the entrances? Yes, I have driven from C to A. There are no other signs (and there are no guest areas north of A-B, so there would be no point in allowing guests to enter at C but not exit at A or B). Can't they enter at C to use the parking lot? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] different access restrictions for different entrances to an area
On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 7:25 PM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: On 10/25/2011 6:03 PM, Anthony wrote: What are we pretending, for the sake of argument, that As I say below: access=destination Private Property / Walt Disney World Resort Guest, Cast, and Business Invitees Only and access=private mean? Service Authorized Vehicles Only After thinking about this, if that's what access=destination and access=private mean, then there is no good solution. We should create a tag which means Only with permission of the owner on an individual basis. That would cover both signs. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] different access restrictions for different entrances to an area
On 10/26/2011 9:36 AM, Anthony wrote: On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 9:16 AM, Nathan Edgars IInerou...@gmail.com wrote: On 10/25/2011 9:41 PM, Stephen Hope wrote: Have you actually driven through the roads, or just verified signs at the entrances? Yes, I have driven from C to A. There are no other signs (and there are no guest areas north of A-B, so there would be no point in allowing guests to enter at C but not exit at A or B). Can't they enter at C to use the parking lot? The parking lot south of C is for employees (and some special events, I believe). All the normal guest parking lots are south of A and B (the smaller ones are for the hotels, while the large one south of Seven Seas Drive is the only one Magic Kingdom guests not staying at a hotel can use). A guest can enter at C, pass through B, and U-turn at the Car Care Center into the main parking lot. After leaving the parking lot he can go back north through the Car Care Center to the areas south of A and B (and head east on Vista Boulevard via a circuitous route), but cannot continue north to exit at C. So for guests the roads between A-B and C are de facto one-way southbound. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] different access restrictions for different entrances to an area
On Wed, 2011-10-26 at 09:58 -0400, Anthony wrote: On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 7:25 PM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: access=destination Private Property / Walt Disney World Resort Guest, Cast, and Business Invitees Only and access=private mean? Service Authorized Vehicles Only After thinking about this, if that's what access=destination and access=private mean, then there is no good solution. We should create a tag which means Only with permission of the owner on an individual basis. That would cover both signs. I think NE2 is close, but I might replace access=destination with access=private and access=private with access=no; authorized=yes signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] different access restrictions for different entrances to an area
http://mapper.acme.com/?ll=28.42073,-81.58224z=15t=Kmarker0=28.41788%2C-81.57674marker1=28.41250%2C-81.59031marker2=28.42977%2C-81.57694 This is the area behind the Magic Kingdom in Walt Disney World. Signs going northbound at A and B say Service Authorized Vehicles Only. Southbound at C, a sign says Private Property / Walt Disney World Resort Guest, Cast, and Business Invitees Only. (I verified A and C a few days ago; it's possible that B has changed recently.) The exact tags to use for these are a matter of recent debate, and it's not worth rehashing that. But it's clear that they are different (a guest can enter Disney from Reams but can't exit that way), so for the sake of argument let's call the former access=private and the latter access=destination. Note that the area from A and B south to the beginning of the motorway is also access=destination due to the presence of the main entrance gate (and a sign identical to that at C on Vista west of Golden Oak). The question is how the segments of road between these points should be tagged. Should the ability to U-turn be taken into account (thus everything but the close vicinity of A and B is destination in both directions)? Or should it be assumed that one won't U-turn for the hell of it (thus all three roads are private northbound and destination southbound)? Or should no_straight_on restrictions be used at the signs, with no access tags on the ways? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] different access restrictions for different entrances to an area
On 10/25/2011 6:03 PM, Anthony wrote: What are we pretending, for the sake of argument, that As I say below: access=destination Private Property / Walt Disney World Resort Guest, Cast, and Business Invitees Only and access=private mean? Service Authorized Vehicles Only On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 2:43 PM, Nathan Edgars IInerou...@gmail.com wrote: http://mapper.acme.com/?ll=28.42073,-81.58224z=15t=Kmarker0=28.41788%2C-81.57674marker1=28.41250%2C-81.59031marker2=28.42977%2C-81.57694 This is the area behind the Magic Kingdom in Walt Disney World. Signs going northbound at A and B say Service Authorized Vehicles Only. Southbound at C, a sign says Private Property / Walt Disney World Resort Guest, Cast, and Business Invitees Only. (I verified A and C a few days ago; it's possible that B has changed recently.) The exact tags to use for these are a matter of recent debate, and it's not worth rehashing that. But it's clear that they are different (a guest can enter Disney from Reams but can't exit that way), so for the sake of argument let's call the former access=private and the latter access=destination. Note that the area from A and B south to the beginning of the motorway is also access=destination due to the presence of the main entrance gate (and a sign identical to that at C on Vista west of Golden Oak). The question is how the segments of road between these points should be tagged. Should the ability to U-turn be taken into account (thus everything but the close vicinity of A and B is destination in both directions)? Or should it be assumed that one won't U-turn for the hell of it (thus all three roads are private northbound and destination southbound)? Or should no_straight_on restrictions be used at the signs, with no access tags on the ways? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] different access restrictions for different entrances to an area
Have you actually driven through the roads, or just verified signs at the entrances? From only looking at the map, I would expect that cast, resort guests, business invitees etc can enter at C, but only to go to the car parks right by the entrance, and further down that road the restrictions would change to the same ones as for A B. They would be expected to exit by the same gate they came in. I could be wrong, of course, but I've seen that setup used elsewhere. I've seen a similar case to the problem you described elsewhere, though. There's a complex I've been to where only vehicles with a key/transponder of some sort can use most of the entrances. All other vehicles have to go through the main entrance, which (usually) has security personnel. Once you're inside, though, you can drive around and exit anywhere. So most of the entrances are restricted one way, but not the other. I'm not sure how you'd tag that, either. Stephen On 26 October 2011 04:43, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: http://mapper.acme.com/?ll=28.42073,-81.58224z=15t=Kmarker0=28.41788%2C-81.57674marker1=28.41250%2C-81.59031marker2=28.42977%2C-81.57694 This is the area behind the Magic Kingdom in Walt Disney World. Signs going northbound at A and B say Service Authorized Vehicles Only. Southbound at C, a sign says Private Property / Walt Disney World Resort Guest, Cast, and Business Invitees Only. (I verified A and C a few days ago; it's possible that B has changed recently.) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
