Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)
2010/6/15 Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com: And since there isn't much difference between a shoulder and a bike lane there is a huge difference IMO. The presence of a bike lane suggests that the road was thought (or later adapted) also for bicycle use, it will usually be convenient to enter and leave the bike lane, at crossings there might be special solutions for cyclists, ... whereas a shoulder is intended mainly for broken cars (at least that's the case in central Europe), cyclists and pedestrians might have the right to go there but they also might encounter big problems at crossings / exit-lanes and so on. Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)
On 15 June 2010 18:46, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2010/6/15 Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com: And since there isn't much difference between a shoulder and a bike lane there is a huge difference IMO. The presence of a bike lane suggests that the road was thought (or later adapted) also for bicycle use, it will usually be convenient to enter and leave the bike lane, at crossings there might be special solutions for cyclists, ... whereas a shoulder is intended mainly for broken cars (at least that's the case in central Europe), cyclists and pedestrians might have the right to go there but they also might encounter big problems at crossings / exit-lanes and so on. Regardless if cyclists are allowed or not, this would be an access restriction, and wouldn't generally impact if a motorway should be tagged as trunk or not. In general I would assume most motorways have a minimum speed and try to keep high speed cars away from bikes, so the default would be bicycle=no... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)
On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.comwrote: Anthony wrote: I wouldn't suggest tagging a road with bicycle=yes if bicycles are only permitted in a bike lane either. How's a router supposed to know how to handle turns if it thinks the bikes are allowed to use the road? When you cycle, how do *you* handle a (left) turn? In Florida you have two options - move over to the left like any other driver, or stop on the right and cross the entire roadway. The router will tell you to turn left, and you'll choose how to do that. It seems to me that the latter isn't always available, at least not safely and legally. Granted, I don't know of any roads (in Florida or otherwise) where bicycles are permitted, but they are only permitted to use the shoulder, so I can't think of an example off the top of my head. But what if there's something like this: http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8hq=ll=28.058596,-82.503741spn=0.00152,0.001778t=kz=19 If bicycles are only permitted to use the shoulder, that means they can't use the left turning lane, and instead have to go to the next traffic light and make a U-turn. If bicycles are allowed to use the roadway, then they can get in the left turning lane and make the turn directly. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)
Anthony wrote: On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Nathan Edgars II neroute2 at gmail.comwrote: When you cycle, how do *you* handle a (left) turn? In Florida you have two options - move over to the left like any other driver, or stop on the right and cross the entire roadway. The router will tell you to turn left, and you'll choose how to do that. It seems to me that the latter isn't always available, at least not safely and legally. Granted, I don't know of any roads (in Florida or otherwise) where bicycles are permitted, but they are only permitted to use the shoulder, so I can't think of an example off the top of my head. But what if there's something like this: http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8hq=ll=28.058596,-82.503741spn=0.00152,0.001778t=kz=19 If bicycles are only permitted to use the shoulder, that means they can't use the left turning lane, and instead have to go to the next traffic light and make a U-turn. If bicycles are allowed to use the roadway, then they can get in the left turning lane and make the turn directly. With respect to only riding on the shoulder, we're talking about freeways, where ramps are almost always on the right side (left in some countries). I am curious what happens at the rare left-side (right) exits and entrances. If bikes are required to stay on the right (left) shoulder, these ramps should be tagged bicycle=no. Does anyone know of any relevant cases? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)
On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 3:41 PM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.comwrote: With respect to only riding on the shoulder, we're talking about freeways, where ramps are almost always on the right side (left in some countries). I won't speak for you, but I was talking about whether or not bicycles allowed only on the shoulder should be tagged as access=yes or something else (such as access=shoulder_only). It came up in the context of a freeway (*), but the access tag should be consistent regardless of whether or not the road is a freeway. (*) Actually, I believe it came up in the context of interstates, which are not all freeways if you count the non-standards-compliant interstates in Alaska (are there others?). ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)
Am Thu, 10 Jun 2010 16:59:19 +0200 schrieb Elena of Valhalla: Anyway, there are motorway tunnels like the Gotthard one that have just one shaft and one lane per direction, but they are few exceptions and can be easily tagged oneway=no. JFTR: The Gotthard-Tunnel is a trunk, not a motorway. Regards, Thomas ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)
2010/6/12 Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com: class than the segments that prohibit bikes. They should be tagged highway=motorway bicycle=yes or bicycle=designated. +1, that's the point: tag the exception, and not bicycle=no on every other piece of motorway. At least for motorways this should be easiely possible, while for the other roads it might be impossible to define satisfying world wide default standards (thus requiring explicit tagging, which at least has the advantage that it isn't complex, it's simple also to newbies, it's unambigous, doesn't require external information like the wiki, ... - the default standard could be yes for all transport means in the actual medium (boat=yes on a primary road doesn't make sense and motorcycle=yes on a river neither)). cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)
On Sat, Jun 12, 2010 at 12:22 PM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.comwrote: They should be tagged highway=motorway bicycle=yes or bicycle=designated. Based on that second pdf, wouldn't something like bicycle=shoulder_only be more accurate? In any case, I don't think it should be called a motorway if bicycles are allowed. I suppose if bicycles are restricted to the shoulder it's arguably still a motorway, but still, I think I'd rather see them tagged as highway=trunk. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)
2010/6/12 Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com: why not just service=motorway? To me, service=motorway implies that the feature is a motorway. How would you describe the feature? - use that as the value. +1, that's why it is considered appropriate: the service area is indeed part of the motorway zone (e.g. there is motorway police and not regional police). cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)
John F. Eldredge wrote: If there are any motorways in the USA that allow bicycles, they would be unusual, and probably be roads under local or state jurisdiction, not federal (national) jurisdiction. All highways in the US are under state or lower jurisdiction except for those in the District of Columbia and other federal areas like parks. The vast majority of Interstates are state-maintained; city-maintained segments exist in Baltimore and New York City. The Interstate highway system, usually cited as the US equivalent of motorways, does not allow bicycles, animal-drawn vehicles, or mopeds (all because of their low speeds), but does allow motorcycles, automobiles, trucks, buses, etc. Completely incorrect in the Western U.S., where Interstates were often built right on top of the old surface roads (and even where not, conditions are such that cycling along the Interstate shoulder is safe): http://www.azdot.gov/Highways/Traffic/standards/PGP/TM1030.pdf http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/HWY/BIKEPED/docs/freeway_ban.pdf Nobody who knows these roads would suggest that they're in a lower class than the segments that prohibit bikes. They should be tagged highway=motorway bicycle=yes or bicycle=designated. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)
On 12 June 2010 09:07, Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com wrote: To me, service=motorway implies that the feature is a motorway. How would you describe the feature? - use that as the value. It's a sub-tag for the service centres off motorway, or at least that what I thought we were talking about. highway=service service=motorway ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)
Hi I think it would be better to tag motorway with motorroad and oneway yes and stip of all the implied tag. 1. I know some motorways which are not oneway. 2. Right now your are not allowed to ride with a motorcycle on motorways, as long as it is not tagged seperatly ! 3. Maybe your are allowed to use a motorways by foot or bicycle ? Maybe surface=paved is ok, but there are many different surface=*. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)
On 10 June 2010 22:51, fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com wrote: Hi I think it would be better to tag motorway with motorroad and oneway yes and stip of all the implied tag. Anything implied doesn't need to be added, removing it would save space, similar to the removal of unneeded or unwanted TIGER tags from nodes etc. 1. I know some motorways which are not oneway. Maybe so, but oneway=yes, lanes=2 should be the default for motorways in most countries 2. Right now your are not allowed to ride with a motorcycle on motorways, as long as it is not tagged seperatly ! Why not? I didn't think there were any implied access=* tags? 3. Maybe your are allowed to use a motorways by foot or bicycle ? This would vary by countries... Maybe surface=paved is ok, but there are many different surface=*. Most motorways in most countries are paved unless they are under construction... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)
On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 2:51 PM, fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com wrote: 1. I know some motorways which are not oneway. not in Europe 2. Right now your are not allowed to ride with a motorcycle on motorways, as long as it is not tagged seperatly ! why ? 3. Maybe your are allowed to use a motorways by foot or bicycle ? It was said here that some motorways allow bicycle in US. But nowhere else. Does it mean that for 3 highways which require a bicycle=yes in US, we have to add bicycle=no to thousands others worldwide ? Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)
Am 10.06.2010 15:23, schrieb Pieren: On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 2:51 PM, fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com mailto:lowfligh...@googlemail.com wrote: 1. I know some motorways which are not oneway. not in Europe yes, in Germany. If the Road is in/under cronstuction and also some ends of motorways. They are sign as motorways but the only have one lane and some have no physical barrier in between. This situation can sometimes last for years. 2. Right now your are not allowed to ride with a motorcycle on motorways, as long as it is not tagged seperatly ! why ? If access=no is implied, you need motorcycle=yes, cause right no only motorcar=yes is implied. Better would be to imply motor_vehicle=yes 3. Maybe your are allowed to use a motorways by foot or bicycle ? It was said here that some motorways allow bicycle in US. But nowhere else. Does it mean that for 3 highways which require a bicycle=yes in US, we have to add bicycle=no to thousands others worldwide ? I am not against implying tags, but you have to be careful, and they have to be worked over, sometimes. Maybe we should imply access=motor_vehicle, mofas=no, moped=no, instead of access=no, motorcars=yes, hgv=yes or just use motorroad=yes from your suggestion lanes=2 should be implied aswell. We also need to point out regional differences better than it is down so far ! cu colliar ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)
On 6/10/10, fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com wrote: Am 10.06.2010 15:23, schrieb Pieren: 1. I know some motorways which are not oneway. not in Europe yes, in Germany. If the Road is in/under cronstuction and also some ends of motorways. End of motorways that aren't oneway don't look like highway=motorway to me, but rather highway=motorway_link. Do they have motorway speed limits, or lower ones? They are sign as motorways but the only have one lane and some have no physical barrier in between. This situation can sometimes last for years. This is a temporary situation, however, so I believe it is better to tag it with some work-in-progress / under-construction tag, rather than a single way. Anyway, there are motorway tunnels like the Gotthard one that have just one shaft and one lane per direction, but they are few exceptions and can be easily tagged oneway=no. -- Elena ``of Valhalla'' homepage: http://www.trueelena.org email: elena.valha...@gmail.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)
In Italy, access to motorways is forbidden to any vehicle not able to reach 80 km/h on a level floor, and motorbikes and motorcycles under 250cc are excluded too. The motorway must be a dual carriageway (which implies oneway=yes) with at least two lanes per carriageway. There may be sections with deviations, closed lanes, etc. because of work in progress and construction sites, but these are usually temporary. IMO, if the law defines motorways to have certain features, these should be implied. Regards, Simone ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)
On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 4:41 PM, fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com wrote: yes, in Germany. If the Road is in/under cronstuction and also some ends of motorways. They are sign as motorways but the only have one lane and some have no physical barrier in between. This situation can sometimes last for years. Hmm.. But that's an exception which shouldn't influence the tagging of a normal motorway. It's like asking to add oneway=no in all residentials or unclassified because sometime it can be oneway=true. If access=no is implied, you need motorcycle=yes, cause right no only motorcar=yes is implied. Better would be to imply motor_vehicle=yes Oops, I didn't see the implied access=no. Maybe we should imply access=motor_vehicle, mofas=no, moped=no, Agree. You forgot tractors. Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)
2010/6/10 Elena of Valhalla elena.valha...@gmail.com: On 6/10/10, fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com wrote: Am 10.06.2010 15:23, schrieb Pieren: 1. I know some motorways which are not oneway. not in Europe yes, in Germany. If the Road is in/under cronstuction and also some ends of motorways. End of motorways that aren't oneway don't look like highway=motorway to me, but rather highway=motorway_link. Do they have motorway speed limits, or lower ones? in Germany there can be speed limits on the motorway or not, that doesn't imply anything. Motorways start at this sign: http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Zeichen_330.svgfiletimestamp=20060307164045 and end at this sign: http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Zeichen_334.svgfiletimestamp=20060506221325 everything in between is a motorway. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)
2010/6/10 Elena of Valhalla elena.valha...@gmail.com: On 6/10/10, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Zeichen_334.svgfiletimestamp=20060506221325 everything in between is a motorway. In Italy e.g. the end of motorway sign (like the one above, but green) is placed at the end of the area di competenza autostradale and this includes motorway_links (and strictly speaking also service areas, that are not even tagged as motorway_something) good point actually. I think it would be better to tag these service areas as motorway_service instead of a simple service. That would make it a lot easier to see them if your on the motorway (-zoom level). (highway=service, service=motorway might be better for consistency). cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)
On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 9:23 AM, Pieren pier...@gmail.com wrote: It was said here that some motorways allow bicycle in US. But nowhere else. The US does not recognize motorway as a designation. So a motorway is whatever we define it to be. I'd say that by definition a motorway does not allow non-motor vehicles. Does it mean that for 3 highways which require a bicycle=yes in US, we have to add bicycle=no to thousands others worldwide ? There are lots of highways in the US which allow bicycles. There are even interstate highways in the US which allow bicycles. But I wouldn't call them motorways. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)
On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 11:35 AM, Simone Saviolo simone.savi...@gmail.comwrote: IMO, if the law defines motorways to have certain features, these should be implied. How about the Vienna Convention on Road Traffic: [quote]Motorway means a road specially designed and built for motor traffic [plus other stuff]...[/quote] [quote] On motorways and, if so provided in domestic legislation, on special approach roads to and exit roads from motorways: (a) The use of the road shall be prohibited to pedestrians, animals, cycles, mopeds unless they are treated as motor cycles, and all vehicles other than motor vehicles and their trailers, and to motor vehicles or motor-vehicle trailers which are incapable, by virtue of their design, of attaining on a flat road a speed specified by domestic legislation [/quote] On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 11:23 AM, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.comwrote: If there are any motorways in the USA that allow bicycles, they would be unusual, and probably be roads under local or state jurisdiction, not federal (national) jurisdiction. The Interstate highway system, usually cited as the US equivalent of motorways, does not allow bicycles, animal-drawn vehicles, or mopeds (all because of their low speeds), but does allow motorcycles, automobiles, trucks, buses, etc. That's incorrect. There are interstates in the US which allow bicycles. And I'm not sure what you mean about a road being under federal jurisdiction. The laws which apply to the vast majority of interstate highways (i.e. ones which are not within a federal enclave) are state laws. The police that patrol these highways are state police. See http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/interstate/faq.htm [quote]Each State establishes the operating rules that determine which vehicles are allowed on the Interstate highways under their jurisdiction. Most States do not allow bicyclists on the Interstate shoulders, but bicycle use is permitted in some States, particularly in the west where there is less traffic and where good alternative routes may not exist for bicycles.[/quote] ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)
I knew that Interstates were patrolled by state police, but was under the (possibly mistaken) impression that many of the regulations concerning the use of the Interstate highway system were set by the Federal government, since it set up the Interstate highway system and provides the majority of the funding for it. I had not heard of any Interstate highways where bicycles were allowed; all that I have seen prohibited bicycle use. Admittedly, it has been several decades since I was last on the US West Coast. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria -Original Message- From: Anthony o...@inbox.org Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 21:05:37 To: Tag discussion, strategy and related toolstagging@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)
2010/6/11 M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: good point actually. I think it would be better to tag these service areas as motorway_service instead of a simple service. That would make it a lot easier to see them if your on the motorway (-zoom level). (highway=service, service=motorway might be better for consistency). As service=* tags for highway service seem to be in widespread use these days, I'd rather propose service=motorway_service or service=lay-by for this use. (or another term that is more accurate for this kind of service ways) -Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
