Re: [Tagging] highway=services on bicycle routes?

[Paul Johnson]

On Fri, Oct 9, 2020 at 12:38 PM Mateusz Konieczny 
wrote:

>
> 9 paź 2020, 15:33 od ba...@ursamundi.org:
>
> On Fri, Oct 9, 2020 at 3:06 AM Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <
> tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>
> For me it sounds sort-of similar (the same definition, just swap "motor
> vehicle" with "bicycle",
> or use "vehicle" to cover both ) but with drastically different
> functionality.
>
> Similarly like "parking" and "bicycle parking" or "motorway" and
> "cycleway".
>
>
>  Eeeh, motorway and cycleway make sense because they're definitely two
> fairly different beasts, but for amenities and parking, motor_vehicle=no,
> bicycle=designated seems like a better idea in retrospect.
>
> I guess that it depends on personal
> preferences.
>
> I really dislike need to enter multiple tags
> to specify basic type (yes I like
> highway=bus_stop)
>

I mean, sure, but it's also not like highway=services are intrinsically and
inherently motorist oriented, either.  Not sure how many don't cater to
motorists, but I don't see a reason to make a tag for the same thing but
doesn't allow motor vehicles...

Presets are your friend to reduce input fatigue.
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Re: [Tagging] highway=services on bicycle routes?

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

9 paź 2020, 15:33 od ba...@ursamundi.org:

> On Fri, Oct 9, 2020 at 3:06 AM Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <> 
> tagging@openstreetmap.org> > wrote:
>
>> For me it sounds sort-of similar (the same definition, just swap "motor 
>> vehicle" with "bicycle",
>> or use "vehicle" to cover both ) but with drastically different 
>> functionality.
>>
>> Similarly like "parking" and "bicycle parking" or "motorway" and "cycleway".
>>
>
>  Eeeh, motorway and cycleway make sense because they're definitely two fairly 
> different beasts, but for amenities and parking, motor_vehicle=no, 
> bicycle=designated seems like a better idea in retrospect.
>
I guess that it depends on personal
preferences.

I really dislike need to enter multiple tags
to specify basic type (yes I like
highway=bus_stop)

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Re: [Tagging] highway=services on bicycle routes?

[Paul Johnson]

On Fri, Oct 9, 2020 at 3:06 AM Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> For me it sounds sort-of similar (the same definition, just swap "motor
> vehicle" with "bicycle",
> or use "vehicle" to cover both ) but with drastically different
> functionality.
>
> Similarly like "parking" and "bicycle parking" or "motorway" and
> "cycleway".
>

 Eeeh, motorway and cycleway make sense because they're definitely two
fairly different beasts, but for amenities and parking, motor_vehicle=no,
bicycle=designated seems like a better idea in retrospect.
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Re: [Tagging] highway=services on bicycle routes?

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

For me it sounds sort-of similar (the same definition, just swap "motor 
vehicle" with "bicycle",
or use "vehicle" to cover both ) but with drastically different functionality.

Similarly like "parking" and "bicycle parking" or "motorway" and "cycleway".

I would use a new tag.

Sep 28, 2020, 21:22 by vosc...@gmail.com:

> Can I use highway=services for a service stop on bike routes? It typically 
> comprises restrooms, some kind of food service, bicycle repair tools/service, 
> often bicycle rental.
> They go by different names. In Italy we have a number of "Bicigrill", a term 
> "borrowed" from a trade mark for motorway fast food ("Autogrill").
> Examples
> https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/f7z3DBQiS6FVyppXXQ97RL
> https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/kJFqtrHTLfmgdePbfsbbiQ
> https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/PU34nYunoIEvH3PnRuJgtQ
> https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/5FU96KmV7_l8U-iHURV5uQ
>
>
>
> 
>
> Virus-free. > www.avast.com 
> 
>  
>
>

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[Tagging] highway=services on bicycle routes?

[Volker Schmidt]

Can I use highway=services for a service stop on bike routes? It typically
comprises restrooms, some kind of food service, bicycle repair
tools/service, often bicycle rental.
They go by different names. In Italy we have a number of "Bicigrill", a
term "borrowed" from a trade mark for motorway fast food ("Autogrill").
Examples
https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/f7z3DBQiS6FVyppXXQ97RL
https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/kJFqtrHTLfmgdePbfsbbiQ
https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/PU34nYunoIEvH3PnRuJgtQ
https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/5FU96KmV7_l8U-iHURV5uQ





Virus-free.
www.avast.com

<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
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Re: [Tagging] highway=services & "Road Stations" - subtag requested.

[Warin]

On 26-Jan-17 12:34 PM, John Willis wrote:


On Jan 26, 2017, at 12:45 AM, Paul Johnson > wrote:


Usually just a vending machine in a cage and some overused, 
under-maintained toilets and lots of parking.



yea, i’m more familiar with the view points (Interstate 5 near camp 
Pendleton) and that style of crap rest area near Castaic lake. Maybe 
the map stop on interstate 8 as you come into san diego. I have driven 
300,000 miles in California, and those are the 3 I can name.  they are 
usually barren dirty places you stop at only if you have to. all the 
SA/PA/ road stations are places you hope you can stop at here in 
Japan. They are usually very nice.


'Rest Areas' in Australia are variable .. some have toilets. All have an 
area to pull off the main road. Very few have bins. Fewer still have water.
Where there is no formal toilet you can expect to find random places 
used as toilets ... and some of these allow the used toilet paper to 
blow around.
Entering a 'rest area' is done with preparation to keep going without 
stopping.
Some people have marked these 'rest areas' as camp sites in OSM ... I 
would never stop at such a place, ok for RV and caravans where you can 
lock the outside out, but camping, never.




I have stopped at 20 different SA/PA in Japan in the last month. I 
have been to.. 15 road stations (?) in 5 years. They are so different.




On Jan 25, 2017, at 11:08 PM, tomoya muramoto 
> wrote:


I just think Michi-no-eki is not "highway=*" category



The Road stations are specifically made for driving tourists in the 
same manner as an SA/PA, so they are in the same category.


Both SA and PA are in the road space, as should road stations.



The wiki for rest_area shows some lonely picnic benches - not a row of 
shops selling food and souvenirs. the


The new PA (a rest area) on the Kita-kanto is this: a little bit of 
grass, a vending machine, and a nice toilets.


I would never consider the two road stations I linked to in the same 
class: 2 restaurants, a motorcycle museum, a souvenir shop, etc.


Maybe this is because there is such a huge disparity between a 
rest_area in the US and a nice road station.


The rest_area wiki page:

Some are set further back in the form of short loops of service road, 
and may feature mobile fast food outlets, toilets etc.


To me, the presence of shops and amenities vs a lonely toilet is a big 
difference,  But t seems that gasoline is the dividing line between 
=services and =rest_area.


perhaps the combination of:

highway=rest_area
+
retail=road_station

is a good solution.

Javbw.


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Re: [Tagging] highway=services & "Road Stations" - subtag requested.

[Mark Wagner]

On Wed, 25 Jan 2017 12:58:39 +
Andy Townsend  wrote:

> On 25/01/2017 12:28, tomoya muramoto wrote:
> > I think "Michi-no-eki" is not a kind of highway=services,
> > because usually it does not have a car specific service, like a gas 
> > station or a car maintainance.
> >
> > A typical Michi-no-eki has
> > * local food shop
> > * cafe
> > * tourist information
> > * 24/7 parking and toilet  
> 
> In English, I'd call that a "rest area", personally.

In American, I'd call that a "travel plaza" (one with limited
services, since it doesn't have fuel). A "rest area" would have
parking, toilets, probably some picnic tables, usually a state highway
map, and perhaps a vending machine or two.

-- 
Mark

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Re: [Tagging] highway=services & "Road Stations" - subtag requested.

[John Willis]

> On Jan 26, 2017, at 12:45 AM, Paul Johnson  wrote:
> 
>  Usually just a vending machine in a cage and some overused, under-maintained 
> toilets and lots of parking.


yea, i’m more familiar with the view points (Interstate 5 near camp Pendleton) 
and that style of crap rest area near Castaic lake. Maybe the map stop on 
interstate 8 as you come into san diego. I have driven 300,000 miles in 
California, and those are the 3 I can name.  they are usually barren dirty 
places you stop at only if you have to. all the SA/PA/ road stations are places 
you hope you can stop at here in Japan. They are usually very nice. 

I have stopped at 20 different SA/PA in Japan in the last month. I have been 
to.. 15 road stations (?) in 5 years. They are so different. 



> On Jan 25, 2017, at 11:08 PM, tomoya muramoto  
> wrote:
> 
> I just think Michi-no-eki is not "highway=*" category



The Road stations are specifically made for driving tourists in the same manner 
as an SA/PA, so they are in the same category.

Both SA and PA are in the road space, as should road stations. 



The wiki for rest_area shows some lonely picnic benches - not a row of shops 
selling food and souvenirs. the  

The new PA (a rest area) on the Kita-kanto is this: a little bit of grass, a 
vending machine, and a nice toilets.  

I would never consider the two road stations I linked to in the same class: 2 
restaurants, a motorcycle museum, a souvenir shop, etc. 

Maybe this is because there is such a huge disparity between a rest_area in the 
US and a nice road station.

The rest_area wiki page: 

> Some are set further back in the form of short loops of service road, and may 
> feature mobile fast food outlets, toilets etc.

To me, the presence of shops and amenities vs a lonely toilet is a big 
difference,  But t seems that gasoline is the dividing line between =services 
and =rest_area. 

perhaps the combination of:

highway=rest_area
+
retail=road_station 

is a good solution. 

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Re: [Tagging] highway=services & "Road Stations" - subtag requested.

[Paul Johnson]

On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 7:34 AM, John Willis  wrote:

> I am not familiar enough with service/rest areas outside Japan then - most
> people in California get a lonely gas station at the exit ramp, maybe with
> a McDonald's - not a government designated spot to stop and buy local goods
> with a clean toilet and a soft creme machine


Caltrans (and Oregon DOT and WSDOT) most certainly do operate rest areas.
Usually just a vending machine in a cage and some overused,
under-maintained toilets and lots of parking.

Oklahoma does have concessions plazas (though not as many as before).
These are on turnpike medians and typically have gas, clean toilets and a
convenience store as a minimum.  Larger/newer ones normally have some form
of fast food and (yes, this is weird) video rental.  What Oklahoma calls a
rest area is typically similar to the west coast examples, except there are
no toilets, just parking.  Maybe a view if you're lucky.
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Re: [Tagging] highway=services & "Road Stations" - subtag requested.

[tomoya muramoto]

I just think Michi-no-eki is not "highway=*" category, as Javbw said a road
station is focused on the person, not the car.
"tourism=*" is OK, and "amenity=*" is acceptable. But invention of a new
tag is not a good idea.
So I think "(landuse=)retail" is enough to describe it.

Tomoya Muramoto
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Re: [Tagging] highway=services & "Road Stations" - subtag requested.

[John Willis]

Javbw

> On Jan 25, 2017, at 9:58 PM, Andy Townsend  wrote:
> 
>> On 25/01/2017 12:28, tomoya muramoto wrote:
>> I think "Michi-no-eki" is not a kind of highway=services,
>> because usually it does not have a car specific service, like a gas station 
>> or a car maintainance.
>> 
>> A typical Michi-no-eki has
>> * local food shop
>> * cafe
>> * tourist information
>> * 24/7 parking and toilet
> 
> In English, I'd call that a "rest area", personally.
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Andy
> 
> 
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If it were about resting, but it is much more focused on local tourism. I 
always felt it was more about getting out of the car, going to the bathroom, 
getting a drink, maybe some fresh hot food (noodles) and  buying a local 
souvenir food box to take home (ooh, Yuzu jelly snacks! Local wasabi !), 
getting a soft creame and then getting back on the road. Sometimes it is near a 
local POI, so you walk over and see the waterfall or the dam or the local 
culture museum. 

People drive from road station to road station on long trips, similar to SAs on 
the tollway.  

Tomoya is right - a road station is focused on the person, not the car. And it 
is for retail. But the "rest areas" I am familiar with are usually a toilet 
and a vending machine in a lonely parking lot. These road stations always 
remind me more of a service area - with nice toilets, shops, (sometimes) hot 
food, and souvenirs for sale to the drivers (and tourist busses) stopping by. 
It reminded me of an SA (which are huge malls with a food court now)  - but is 
a motorway=services defined by the gasoline stand? It seemed to be a retail 
space catering to motorists - just like these road stations - but with a gas 
stand too. 

I stop at SAs all the time. I never buy gas. We always stop for the toilet and 
some kind of food. 

I am not familiar enough with service/rest areas outside Japan then - most 
people in California get a lonely gas station at the exit ramp, maybe with a 
McDonald's - not a government designated spot to stop and buy local goods with 
a clean toilet and a soft creme machine. 

Thanks for the feedback so far !  
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Re: [Tagging] highway=services & "Road Stations" - subtag requested.

[Andy Townsend]

On 25/01/2017 12:28, tomoya muramoto wrote:

I think "Michi-no-eki" is not a kind of highway=services,
because usually it does not have a car specific service, like a gas 
station or a car maintainance.


A typical Michi-no-eki has
* local food shop
* cafe
* tourist information
* 24/7 parking and toilet


In English, I'd call that a "rest area", personally.

Best Regards,

Andy


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Re: [Tagging] highway=services & "Road Stations" - subtag requested.

[tomoya muramoto]

I think "Michi-no-eki" is not a kind of highway=services,
because usually it does not have a car specific service, like a gas station
or a car maintainance.

A typical Michi-no-eki has
* local food shop
* cafe
* tourist information
* 24/7 parking and toilet

So I usually put "landuse=retail" to Michi-no-eki area, and make indivisual
POIs.

If you need a subtag for Michi-no-eki, how about retail=road_station?

Muramoto Tomoya
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Re: [Tagging] highway=services & "Road Stations" - subtag requested.

[John Willis]

Javbw

> On Jan 25, 2017, at 2:36 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> your going to distinguish 'road houses' then consider SA, PA, etc too? 

As far as I know,

A Japanese SA, besides being named after the "Services" of a British motorway, 
is modelled after it as well, so the existing tag fits very well.

Existing "rest_area" is a PA, which basically have toilets and a vending 
machine - no restaurants or "employees" to serve you, usually. 

So the road station is the odd man out, in my opinion. If It is useful to the 
eastern US turnpike stops, that's great too. 

But it is regional, as I have never seen a government or other road operating 
company sanction an officially signed and documented "road stop" and then rent 
out space to other companies in California, so I can't comment. Perhaps the 
Golden Gate Park stop is one of the few. 

Javbw. 


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Re: [Tagging] highway=services & "Road Stations" - subtag requested.

[Dave Swarthout]

Along the major tollways and freeways in the U.S. there are full service
areas that are for primarily for refueling but always offer other amenities
like restaurants, telephones, and toilets. These were always called Service
Areas by the New York State Thruway Authority and are referred to by that
name on signs, as in Mohawk Service Area, for example. Then there are also
Rest Areas that offer short-term parking, toilets, tourist information, and
sometimes snack bars and picnic areas but not fuel.

As such, highway=services does not fit and they appear to be similar to
what John's describing. Perhaps service=rest_area would work. But I have no
firm objection to service=road_station except that I'm unfamiliar with that
term.

On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 12:36 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 25-Jan-17 02:17 PM, John Willis wrote:
>
> Summary:  highway=services easily fits modern tollway service areas, but a
> services=road_station subtag would be a nice addition for “road stations”
> found on non-motorway roads throughout Japan that predate motorways and are
> treated differently. this would allow differentiated rendering and
> searching.
>
> Example road stations in the middle of nowhere I have personally visited
> (and just mapped / cleaned up).
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/448938620#map=11/36.1415/137.8063
>  (small)
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/468566277#map=11/35.8854/138.8576
>  (large)
>
>  feedback is requested.
>
> ~~~
>
> Here in Japan, we have British style “service areas” on the motorways,
> along with rest areas called “parking areas”, usually abbreviated SA and
> PA, and are easy to tag with the existing tags. http://kitamoto-nikki.ke
> ystar.jp/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/kamisato-sic-2.jpg ( Kamisato SA )
>
> However a very old concept of “stations” exists along with it. Back when
> the roads were foot paths through the country, there would be stations for
> travellers to stop and rest and possibly take shelter from the weather.
> http://www.fujiarts.com/japanese-prints/Static%20Se
> ts/Hoeido%20Tokaido/2tokf.jpg at some point they were also for other uses
> (security, domestic migration prevention), but they were mostly named
> places with designated functions.
>
> These original road stations have evolved into the modern idea of a “road
> station” ( michi-no-eki  道の駅 ) - and per the Japanese government, there
> are currently 1100, They evolved and existed before the existence of the
> motorways and their SAs. These are used by many people every day who travel
> older routes that were bypassed by motorways or in more rural areas where
> tourists are just traveling through on their way to visit a major
> attraction in the wilderness (national parks, ski resorts, etc).
>
> here is the official government page listing the road stations
> http://www.michi-no-eki.jp/en/?language=1
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roadside_station
>
>
> a road station is similar to a service area in that:
>
> - it offers parking, food, snacks (and sometimes gas).
>
> - it offers a break for drivers from a long drive.
>
> - it may offer local goods or a view of a local POI.
>
> - offers information, like driving conditions and local news.
>
>
> And it differs from highway=services in that:
>
> - it is not on a motorway (tollway), but usually on a trunk or a primary
> road, some of which are far away from a town (usually mountain roads), or
> where major routes meet in a rural or wild area.
>
> - they are named “road stations” by government, which is a distinction
> from the SA and PAs found on the tollways operated by the tollway. They are
> signed as a “road station [name]” by the government
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roadside_station#/media/File:R
> oadside_Station_Seiryunosato_Hijikawa.jpg , as opposed to a service area
> which is built into the tollway system, and shown with the SA name:
> http://fumi.ninja-x.jp/31%209a.jpg
>
> - SAs are the only choice for travelers because they are on the tollway
> system (leaving to visit another location would be expensive), whereas a
> road station is often the only choice because of the remote location - but
> there is no exclusivity like the SA /PAs enjoy.
>
> - Many are made for enticing tourists to stop in local towns they would
> normally drive through (so they stop and spend money in a tiny town)  - the
> opposite of a SA or PA, which are there just for the traveller. This is
> true for many small towns that exist in the “suburban” area of Japan,
> surrounded by trun roads and tollways people would use to skip the town, so
> a road station is designated for them.
>
> - many are on major routes in rural areas, sometimes in areas where there
> is no other route, so they are the only services available - not a mere
> time convenience.
>
> - in the wilderness,  the road station may be the only permissive or safe
> place to stop in an area, as everything else is private homes or abandoned
> businesses on narrow roads.
>
>
> I understand 

Re: [Tagging] highway=services & "Road Stations" - subtag requested.

[Warin]

On 25-Jan-17 02:17 PM, John Willis wrote:
Summary:  highway=services easily fits modern tollway service areas, 
but a services=road_station subtag would be a nice addition for “road 
stations” found on non-motorway roads throughout Japan that predate 
motorways and are treated differently. this would allow differentiated 
rendering and searching.


Example road stations in the middle of nowhere I have personally 
visited (and just mapped / cleaned up).

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/448938620#map=11/36.1415/137.8063 (small)
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/468566277#map=11/35.8854/138.8576 (large) 



 feedback is requested.

~~~

Here in Japan, we have British style “service areas” on the motorways, 
along with rest areas called “parking areas”, usually abbreviated SA 
and PA, and are easy to tag with the existing tags. 
http://kitamoto-nikki.keystar.jp/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/kamisato-sic-2.jpg ( 
Kamisato SA )


However a very old concept of “stations” exists along with it. Back 
when the roads were foot paths through the country, there would be 
stations for travellers to stop and rest and possibly take shelter 
from the weather. 
http://www.fujiarts.com/japanese-prints/Static%20Sets/Hoeido%20Tokaido/2tokf.jpg at 
some point they were also for other uses (security, domestic migration 
prevention), but they were mostly named places with designated functions.


These original road stations have evolved into the modern idea of a 
“road station” ( michi-no-eki 道の駅 ) - and per the Japanese government, 
there are currently 1100, They evolved and existed before the 
existence of the motorways and their SAs. These are used by many 
people every day who travel older routes that were bypassed by 
motorways or in more rural areas where tourists are just traveling 
through on their way to visit a major attraction in the wilderness 
(national parks, ski resorts, etc).


here is the official government page listing the road stations 
http://www.michi-no-eki.jp/en/?language=1


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roadside_station


a road station is similar to a service area in that:

- it offers parking, food, snacks (and sometimes gas).

- it offers a break for drivers from a long drive.

- it may offer local goods or a view of a local POI.

- offers information, like driving conditions and local news.


And it differs from highway=services in that:

- it is not on a motorway (tollway), but usually on a trunk or a 
primary road, some of which are far away from a town (usually mountain 
roads), or where major routes meet in a rural or wild area.


- they are named “road stations” by government, which is a distinction 
from the SA and PAs found on the tollways operated by the tollway. 
They are signed as a “road station [name]” by the government
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roadside_station#/media/File:Roadside_Station_Seiryunosato_Hijikawa.jpg , as 
opposed to a service area which is built into the tollway system, and 
shown with the SA name: http://fumi.ninja-x.jp/31%209a.jpg


- SAs are the only choice for travelers because they are on the 
tollway system (leaving to visit another location would be expensive), 
whereas a road station is often the only choice because of the remote 
location - but there is no exclusivity like the SA /PAs enjoy.


- Many are made for enticing tourists to stop in local towns they 
would normally drive through (so they stop and spend money in a tiny 
town)  - the opposite of a SA or PA, which are there just for the 
traveller. This is true for many small towns that exist in the 
“suburban” area of Japan, surrounded by trun roads and tollways people 
would use to skip the town, so a road station is designated for them.


- many are on major routes in rural areas, sometimes in areas where 
there is no other route, so they are the only services available - not 
a mere time convenience.


- in the wilderness,  the road station may be the only permissive or 
safe place to stop in an area, as everything else is private homes or 
abandoned businesses on narrow roads.



I understand creating a new value for road station is stupid, since 
they are so similar on a basic level, but I would like to create a 
services=* subkey (which seems to just have some random values for 
some bus lines in Germany?) to tag these road stations as something 
distinct from motorway services, to allow a “michi-no-eki” icon to 
easily rendered on known locations.


highway=services
services=road_station

Thoughts?

Javbw


If your going to distinguish 'road houses' then consider SA, PA, etc too?

Is it just distinguished by the type of road it is on?
The name, signs etc ... is one factor .. but the features offered are 
the same or similar? In other words .. how similar are these things 
locally?
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[Tagging] highway=services & "Road Stations" - subtag requested.

[John Willis]

Summary:  highway=services easily fits modern tollway service areas, but a 
services=road_station subtag would be a nice addition for “road stations” found 
on non-motorway roads throughout Japan that predate motorways and are treated 
differently. this would allow differentiated rendering and searching. 

Example road stations in the middle of nowhere I have personally visited (and 
just mapped / cleaned up). 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/448938620#map=11/36.1415/137.8063 
 (small)
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/468566277#map=11/35.8854/138.8576 
 (large) 

 feedback is requested.

~~~

Here in Japan, we have British style “service areas” on the motorways, along 
with rest areas called “parking areas”, usually abbreviated SA and PA, and are 
easy to tag with the existing tags. 
http://kitamoto-nikki.keystar.jp/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/kamisato-sic-2.jpg 

 ( Kamisato SA )

However a very old concept of “stations” exists along with it. Back when the 
roads were foot paths through the country, there would be stations for 
travellers to stop and rest and possibly take shelter from the weather. 
http://www.fujiarts.com/japanese-prints/Static%20Sets/Hoeido%20Tokaido/2tokf.jpg
 

 at some point they were also for other uses (security, domestic migration 
prevention), but they were mostly named places with designated functions. 

These original road stations have evolved into the modern idea of a “road 
station” ( michi-no-eki  道の駅 ) - and per the Japanese government, there are 
currently 1100, They evolved and existed before the existence of the motorways 
and their SAs. These are used by many people every day who travel older routes 
that were bypassed by motorways or in more rural areas where tourists are just 
traveling through on their way to visit a major attraction in the wilderness 
(national parks, ski resorts, etc).

here is the official government page listing the road stations 
http://www.michi-no-eki.jp/en/?language=1 
 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roadside_station 
 


a road station is similar to a service area in that:

- it offers parking, food, snacks (and sometimes gas). 

- it offers a break for drivers from a long drive. 

- it may offer local goods or a view of a local POI. 

- offers information, like driving conditions and local news. 


And it differs from highway=services in that:

- it is not on a motorway (tollway), but usually on a trunk or a primary road, 
some of which are far away from a town (usually mountain roads), or where major 
routes meet in a rural or wild area. 

- they are named “road stations” by government, which is a distinction from the 
SA and PAs found on the tollways operated by the tollway. They are signed as a 
“road station [name]” by the government

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roadside_station#/media/File:Roadside_Station_Seiryunosato_Hijikawa.jpg
 

 , as opposed to a service area which is built into the tollway system, and 
shown with the SA name: http://fumi.ninja-x.jp/31%209a.jpg 
 

- SAs are the only choice for travelers because they are on the tollway system 
(leaving to visit another location would be expensive), whereas a road station 
is often the only choice because of the remote location - but there is no 
exclusivity like the SA /PAs enjoy. 

- Many are made for enticing tourists to stop in local towns they would 
normally drive through (so they stop and spend money in a tiny town)  - the 
opposite of a SA or PA, which are there just for the traveller. This is true 
for many small towns that exist in the “suburban” area of Japan, surrounded by 
trun roads and tollways people would use to skip the town, so a road station is 
designated for them. 

- many are on major routes in rural areas, sometimes in areas where there is no 
other route, so they are the only services available - not a mere time 
convenience. 

- in the wilderness,  the road station may be the only permissive or safe place 
to stop in an area, as everything else is private homes or abandoned businesses 
on narrow roads. 


I understand creating a new value for road station is stupid, since they are so 
similar on a basic level, but I would like to create a services=* subkey (which 
seems to just have some random values for some bus lines in Germany?) to tag 
these road stations as something distinct from motorway services, to allow a 
“michi-no-eki” icon to easily rendered on known locations. 

highway=services
services=road_station

Re: [Tagging] highway=services/rest_area

[Paul Johnson]

On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 4:23 PM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote:
 What's the correct tag for something like this, on a surface road and
 operated by a private company (chain)?
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/99634310

I don't think there's a single tag that covers a truck stop, though I
wouldn't be opposed to highway=services for this, since they almost
always include exactly the same amenities as a concessions plaza
anyway; they're just not on public land.

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[Tagging] highway=services/rest_area

[Nathan Edgars II]

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dservices says that it 
(usually) has fuel and food, but it links to Wikipedia:rest area. Should 
the Wikipedia link be removed (and added to 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Drest_area)? Should the 
word 'usually' be removed?


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Re: [Tagging] highway=services/rest_area

[Georg Feddern]

Am 20.04.2012 10:46, schrieb Nathan Edgars II:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dservices says that it 
(usually) has fuel and food, but it links to Wikipedia:rest area.


Should the Wikipedia link be removed (and added to 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Drest_area)?


Uhmm, difficult, because the linked wikipedia article refers to rest 
area _and_ service area.


I would differ between
highway=rest_area as rest area (min. parking and rest rooms, may be a 
picnic area or a very small kiosk, but no further service)

and
highway=services as service area. (min. any 'full' service like refuel, 
restaurant, accomodation)



Should the word 'usually' be removed?


Possibly, at least I am expecting a fuel service at highway=services - 
but that may be a result of my german / european practice.
I do not know of service areas with accomodation only, just of fuel and 
optional restaurant, optional accomodation.



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Re: [Tagging] highway=services/rest_area

[SomeoneElse]

Nathan Edgars II wrote:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dservices says that it 
(usually) has fuel and food, but it links to Wikipedia:rest area. 
Should the Wikipedia link be removed (and added to 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Drest_area)? Should 
the word 'usually' be removed?


As I read it, Wikipedia:rest_area encompasses both highway=services and 
highway=rest_area.  The highway=rest_area page was created by an 
Australian, and I suspect it reflects the situation in (Eastern) 
Australia*.  It links to Wikipedia:rest area#Australia. There are 
similar non-service rest areas in other countries of course - lots in 
the US, and there's at least one in the UK.


I'd say the wikipedia links are about right as thet are

Cheers,
Andy

* I don't remember seeing one in a few thousand km of driving in Western 
Australia last year.  Bottle-shops, plenty...


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Re: [Tagging] highway=services/rest_area

[Philip Barnes]

On Fri, 2012-04-20 at 06:43 -0400, Nathan Edgars II wrote:
 On 4/20/2012 5:50 AM, Georg Feddern wrote:
  Am 20.04.2012 10:46, schrieb Nathan Edgars II:
  http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dservices says that it
  (usually) has fuel and food, but it links to Wikipedia:rest area.
 
  Should the Wikipedia link be removed (and added to
  http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Drest_area)?
 
  Uhmm, difficult, because the linked wikipedia article refers to rest
  area _and_ service area.
 
 Wikipedia:service area redirects to rest area, so I'm going to change it 
 to that. At least it won't give the wrong impression to someone skimming 
 the description. 
I think Wikipedia is very wrong on that one, and we really should not
follow it.

To give the impression that you will get fuel, food or drink at a rest
area is misleading. A rest area is a place to stop (to rest), that may
have a WC, picnic tables, somewhere maybe to set up a barbeque but no
'services' are available.

At a service area you can also get fuel, there will be a shop and
cafeteria/restaurants.

Phil



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Re: [Tagging] highway=services/rest_area

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am 20. April 2012 14:21 schrieb Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk:
 I think Wikipedia is very wrong on that one, and we really should not
 follow it.


+1, we might even think of correcting it in WP.


 To give the impression that you will get fuel, food or drink at a rest
 area is misleading. A rest area is a place to stop (to rest), that may
 have a WC, picnic tables, somewhere maybe to set up a barbeque but no
 'services' are available.

 At a service area you can also get fuel, there will be a shop and
 cafeteria/restaurants.


+1, it is the same situation in Germany, Italy and probably mostly anywhere.

Cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] highway=services/rest_area

[John F. Eldredge]

Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:

 Am 20. April 2012 14:21 schrieb Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk:
  I think Wikipedia is very wrong on that one, and we really should
 not
  follow it.
 
 
 +1, we might even think of correcting it in WP.
 
 
  To give the impression that you will get fuel, food or drink at a
 rest
  area is misleading. A rest area is a place to stop (to rest), that
 may
  have a WC, picnic tables, somewhere maybe to set up a barbeque but
 no
  'services' are available.
 
  At a service area you can also get fuel, there will be a shop and
  cafeteria/restaurants.
 
 
 +1, it is the same situation in Germany, Italy and probably mostly
 anywhere.
 
 Cheers,
 Martin
 
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In the USA, you have the same distinction between service areas and rest areas. 
 In addition, there will sometimes be parking areas, meaning that there will 
be a parking lot but no restrooms or other amenities.  Fortunately, parking 
areas are rare.

-- 
John F. Eldredge --  j...@jfeldredge.com
Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to 
think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria

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Re: [Tagging] highway=services/rest_area

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am 20. April 2012 16:18 schrieb John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com:
 n addition, there will sometimes be parking areas, meaning that there will 
 be a parking lot but no restrooms or other amenities.  Fortunately, parking 
 areas are rare.


we also have these, I'd include them in rest_areas. Basically you can
rest there, even if there is no toilet.

cheers,
Martin

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[Tagging] Highway services operator

[Stefano Pallicca]

On the wiki [0] I found the operator tag to describe the operator of a
certain service area.
Now what is this tag supposed to describe? The fuel station operator?
The restaurant/bar/fast food operator? Other?

May other amenities/services be inserted?
E.g.
- semicolon-separated services=*
- atm=yes/no

Thw wiki entry is absolutely lean about these aspects

Stefano


http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dservices



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Re: [Tagging] Highway services operator

[Paul Johnson]

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 18:47:04 +0200, Stefano Pallicca wrote:

 On the wiki [0] I found the operator tag to describe the operator of a
 certain service area.
 Now what is this tag supposed to describe? The fuel station operator?
 The restaurant/bar/fast food operator? Other?
 
 May other amenities/services be inserted? E.g.
 - semicolon-separated services=*
 - atm=yes/no

One that comes to mind is the potential tags for a Taco Bell owned by 
Pacific Bells, Inc., common in Oregon:

name=Taco Bell
amenity=fast_food
cuisine=mexican
operator=Pacific Bells, Incorporated

Or for a corporate-owned Sonic, common in Oklahoma:

name=Sonic Drive-In
amenity=fast_food
cuisine=american
operator=Sonic Restaurants, Incorporated


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Re: [Tagging] Highway services operator

[John Smith]

On 18 July 2010 03:49, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote:
 One that comes to mind is the potential tags for a Taco Bell owned by
 Pacific Bells, Inc., common in Oregon:

 name=Taco Bell
 amenity=fast_food
 cuisine=mexican
 operator=Pacific Bells, Incorporated

 Or for a corporate-owned Sonic, common in Oklahoma:

 name=Sonic Drive-In
 amenity=fast_food
 cuisine=american
 operator=Sonic Restaurants, Incorporated

This came up the other day in an almost identical thread, the name out
the front isn't the same as the restaurant name, and you should tag
that as the brand=*

http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2010-July/051698.html

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Re: [Tagging] highway=services

[John Smith]

On 30 May 2010 20:09, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
 site-relation

But if the intent was to get a shaded area on a map this won't work.

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Re: [Tagging] highway=services

[Richard Welty]

On 5/30/10 6:21 AM, John Smith wrote:
 On 30 May 2010 20:09, M∡rtin Koppenhoeferdieterdre...@gmail.com  wrote:

 site-relation
  
 But if the intent was to get a shaded area on a map this won't work.

for a shaded area, a polygon with something like

landuse=highway_services

or

amenity=highway_services

would make sense. conventional POIs inside the area can represent the
available services. i guess i'd have to hear the case for site-relation, 
although
i can kind of see something like that as generally useful. e.g., 
shopping centers,
their landuse boundary, parking lots, stores and buildings could be 
grouped this
way. but do we really need it? what's the use case?

richard



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Re: [Tagging] highway=services

[Claudius Henrichs]

Am 28.05.2010 03:05, John Smith:
 On 28 May 2010 09:58, Craig Wallacecraig...@fastmail.fm  wrote:

 Some of them are also mapped with a short way tagged as highway=service
 (not highway=services !), to connect it to the main road.
  
 highway=service is already used to indicate a type of road way, it'd
 be silly to use the same thing to mean different things.

Mind that in this discussion we are talking about a different tag: 
highway=services (mind the final s)

Claudius

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Re: [Tagging] highway=services

[John Smith]

On 28 May 2010 21:43, Liz ed...@billiau.net wrote:
 This points out a serious problem with the highway=services tag
 it is only one letter different from a very different tag.
 John Smith will shoot me down, but this could be an amenity tag
 amenity=highway_services

Or just extend the existing tag since it is a highway specific feature:

highway=service_area

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Re: [Tagging] highway=services

[John Smith]

On 28 May 2010 22:19, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net wrote:
 lots of ways to do this:

 toilets=yes
 food=yes
 vending=yes
 fuel=yes

 although in a large service area with food and fuel, you'd probably
 just map them in as POIs in the conventional way. same for parking,
 we have a normal approach for that already.

I'd say you are right on both counts, if it's a single node then use
the node to indicate various facilities available, if it's an area
plot things out on individual nodes...

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Re: [Tagging] highway=services

[Craig Wallace]

On 27/05/2010 22:09, Liz wrote:
 rest area has been redirected to highway=services with a note to a Wikipedia
 entry.
 The wikipedia entry is huge and after much scrolling down the page it becomes
 quite obvious that Rest Area has many meanings on highways worldwide.
 While highway=services is well explained, redirecting other phrases to the
 same point is not justified.
 Rest Area signed on highways near me merely means that there is room to pull
 off the road and park. Next available facility is a bin for garbage, sometimes
 a picnic table, but it certainly does not mean highway=services.
 rest_area has not been used for anything in OSM (yet) so directing it to a
 particular tag is inappropriate.

In the UK, these would usually be known as a lay-by.
It may just be a space to pull over and park, or it may be more 
separated, with trees/grass between it and the road. And as you say, it 
may also have a bin or a picnic table, and maybe a burger van in the 
busier lay-bys.

I've been thinking about the best way of tagging these. I've noticed 
quite a few of them near me have been tagged as amenity=parking, which 
is accurate, in that it is a place to park. Maybe also worth an extra 
tag to specify what sort of parking it is, eg parking=lay-by ?
Some of them are also mapped with a short way tagged as highway=service 
(not highway=services !), to connect it to the main road.


Craig

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Re: [Tagging] highway=services

[John F. Eldredge]

In Tennessee, USA, where I live, the Interstates (motorways) both parking 
areas (no services other than a place to park temporarily) and rest areas 
(with parking, rest rooms, soft drink/candy machines, and frequently local 
tourist-information pamphlets.  They may or may not have an attendant on band.  
In other states, I have seen full-service truck stops in the center of the 
Interstate.

-- 
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to 
think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria

-Original Message-
From: Craig Wallace craig...@fastmail.fm
Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 00:58:12 
To: tagging@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Tagging] highway=services

On 27/05/2010 22:09, Liz wrote:
 rest area has been redirected to highway=services with a note to a Wikipedia
 entry.
 The wikipedia entry is huge and after much scrolling down the page it becomes
 quite obvious that Rest Area has many meanings on highways worldwide.
 While highway=services is well explained, redirecting other phrases to the
 same point is not justified.
 Rest Area signed on highways near me merely means that there is room to pull
 off the road and park. Next available facility is a bin for garbage, sometimes
 a picnic table, but it certainly does not mean highway=services.
 rest_area has not been used for anything in OSM (yet) so directing it to a
 particular tag is inappropriate.

In the UK, these would usually be known as a lay-by.
It may just be a space to pull over and park, or it may be more
separated, with trees/grass between it and the road. And as you say, it
may also have a bin or a picnic table, and maybe a burger van in the
busier lay-bys.

I've been thinking about the best way of tagging these. I've noticed
quite a few of them near me have been tagged as amenity=parking, which
is accurate, in that it is a place to park. Maybe also worth an extra
tag to specify what sort of parking it is, eg parking=lay-by ?
Some of them are also mapped with a short way tagged as highway=service
(not highway=services !), to connect it to the main road.


Craig

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Re: [Tagging] highway=services

[John Smith]

On 28 May 2010 10:19, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote:
 In Tennessee, USA, where I live, the Interstates (motorways) both parking 
 areas (no services other than a place to park temporarily) and rest areas 
 (with parking, rest rooms, soft drink/candy machines, and frequently local 
 tourist-information pamphlets.  They may or may not have an attendant on 
 band.  In other states, I have seen full-service truck stops in the center of 
 the Interstate.

They aren't really parking areas in the same sense as amenity=parking
is, meaning you park your car and wander off to go shopping etc, they
are meant to allow you to have a rest from driving, and possibly to
use any nearby amenities such as toilets or bins etc.

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