Re: [Tagging] phone vs contact:phone WAS Re: Multiple tags for one purpose

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Do., 19. Sept. 2019 um 09:20 Uhr schrieb Valor Naram via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org>:

> Let me summarize
>
> Why `phone`:
> - It's more used
> - It's shorter
> - Better to find in wiki
>
> Why `contact:phone`:
> - It's more structured because it's a subkey of `contact`
> - It's better to find in wiki (for people who think in a "more structured"
> way)
> - It's the approved one



I would question that it is easier to find "contact:phone" compared to
"phone" in the wiki, regardless of the structured way you think in. Try it:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?search=phone+number=Special%3ASearch=Go
contact:phone doesn't even have a wiki page, only a redirect. The first
thing you read on the "contact:*" collector page is a reference to the more
used "phone" key.

I would also question there is a point in the "approval" by voting, as
approval by usage (and growth) is more important than voting.

This leaves only the "more structured" as an argument, which can be seen as
a pro, but also not. And while this "structured" approach may work nicely
for phone numbers, it is questionable for keys like "website", because a
website is a website, and may be an interesting datum, even if there is no
contact possibility whatsoever on the website.

"phone" is not only more used, its usage is also growing faster.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] phone vs contact:phone WAS Re: Multiple tags for one purpose

[Valor Naram via Tagging]

Let me summarizeWhy `phone`:- It's more used- It's shorter- Better to find in wikiWhy `contact:phone`:- It's more structured because it's a subkey of `contact`- It's better to find in wiki (for people who think in a "more structured" way)- It's the approved oneBoth let us add more subkeys like `emergency`CheerioSören Reinecke alias Valor Naram Original Message Subject: Re: [Tagging] phone vs contact:phone WAS Re: Multiple tags for one purposeFrom: Colin Smale To: tagging@openstreetmap.orgCC: 
On 2019-08-26 15:53, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

sent from a phoneOn 25. Aug 2019, at 18:06, Andy Mabbett  wrote: there are at least two possibilities:phone= phone:emergency= phone:staff= and:phone= emergency:phone= staff:phone= Neither of which requires "contact:" exactly, I was about to reply the same, it is not an issue for more specific tags that there is also a generic tag.

So will we now have the OSM-style discussion about which phone number to put in the generic tag? All numbers are equal, but one is slightly more equal than the rest...
 
 

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Re: [Tagging] phone vs contact:phone WAS Re: Multiple tags for one purpose

[Colin Smale]

On 2019-08-26 15:53, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

> sent from a phone
> 
> On 25. Aug 2019, at 18:06, Andy Mabbett  wrote:
> 
> there are at least two possibilities:
> phone=
> phone:emergency=
> phone:staff=
> 
> and:
> phone=
> emergency:phone=
> staff:phone=
> 
> Neither of which requires "contact:"
> 
> exactly, I was about to reply the same, it is not an issue for more specific 
> tags that there is also a generic tag.

So will we now have the OSM-style discussion about which phone number to
put in the generic tag? All numbers are equal, but one is slightly more
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Re: [Tagging] phone vs contact:phone WAS Re: Multiple tags for one purpose

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 25. Aug 2019, at 18:06, Andy Mabbett  wrote:
> 
> there are at least two possibilities:
> 
> 
> phone=
> phone:emergency=
> phone:staff=
> 
> and:
> 
> phone=
> emergency:phone=
> staff:phone=
> 
> Neither of which requires "contact:"


exactly, I was about to reply the same, it is not an issue for more specific 
tags that there is also a generic tag.

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] phone vs contact:phone WAS Re: Multiple tags for one purpose

[Warin]

On 26/08/19 00:55, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


sent from a phone


On 25. Aug 2019, at 07:20, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

Type 'phone' into the OSMwiki search box and you get redirected to the key 
'phone=*'.
This gets preferential treatment to the key 'contact:phone=*'.


seems fair that “key:phone” shows up first for a search for “phone”, it’s 
straightforward, and it’s also the most used tag for phone (numbers).


There is no list, no first, second etc. The only thing that shows is the page 
for the key phone.
No list of key phone and key contact:phone .. just the key phone page - no 
search page at all.


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Re: [Tagging] phone vs contact:phone WAS Re: Multiple tags for one purpose

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Mon, 26 Aug 2019 at 05:58, marc marc  wrote:

>
> phone=number1;number2
> ex https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/26861282


But that wouldn't allow you to specify what the different numbers are for,
would it?
eg phone=general_enquiries:number1;service:number2

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] phone vs contact:phone WAS Re: Multiple tags for one purpose

[marc marc]

Le 25.08.19 à 17:42, Colin Smale a écrit :
> Your model (using only phone=*) only allows an object to have a single 
> phone number.

not true.
phone=number1;number2
ex https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/26861282
18219 discint value for a total of 19694 count

> one for general enquiries, one for emergencies, one for staff,...

you may use a namespace prefix (but some app 'll not use it)
or create one objet per unit (maybe a reception_desk for the
general enquiries, or one for the Hyundai franchise departement)
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Re: [Tagging] phone vs contact:phone WAS Re: Multiple tags for one purpose

[Andrew Hain]

Unless you can justify a difference based on the nature of the information 
recorded instead of tag counts, deprecating contact:phone makes tagging less 
orthogonal, which is a nuisance for both mappers and map consumers.

--
Andrew

From: Valor Naram 
Sent: 25 August 2019 17:40
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools 
Subject: Re: [Tagging] phone vs contact:phone WAS Re: Multiple tags for one 
purpose

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:phone and 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:contact don't provide any tagging 
method to tag numbers for emergency, general enquiries etc. Both keys just 
allow the tagging of one phone number on one object.

But feel free to write a proposal to extend the tagging scheme of `phone` to:
- `phone`
- `phone:emergency`
- `phone:night`
- `phone:press`

Feel free also to extend the `email` tag:
- `email`
- `email:press`
- `email:legal`

But we're drifting away from the topic "Multiple tags for one purpose". We 
should discuss the problem of "fragmentation" in general. But deprecating 
`contact:phone` in favor of `phone` can be the logical step.

Cheers

Sören Reinecke alias Valor Naram


 Original Message ----
Subject: Re: [Tagging] phone vs contact:phone WAS Re: Multiple tags for one 
purpose
From: Colin Smale
To: tagging@openstreetmap.org
CC:



Your model (using only phone=*) only allows an object to have a single phone 
number. How do you propose modelling multiple phone numbers on a single object? 
For example, one for general enquiries, one for emergencies, one for staff,...

Note I am not talking about tagging here, but trying to discuss the underlying 
data model.




On 2019-08-25 17:11, Valor Naram wrote:

> What about deprecating the contact: prefix, at least for phone? It doesn't 
> seem it will ever make it and is basically a deliberate tag fragmentation.

Yes, I recommend deprecating `contact:phone`


 Original Message ----
Subject: [Tagging] phone vs contact:phone WAS Re: Multiple tags for one purpose
From: Martin Koppenhoefer
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
CC:




sent from a phone

> On 25. Aug 2019, at 07:20, Warin wrote:
>
> Type 'phone' into the OSMwiki search box and you get redirected to the key 
> 'phone=*'.
> This gets preferential treatment to the key 'contact:phone=*'.


seems fair that "key:phone" shows up first for a search for "phone", it's 
straightforward, and it's also the most used tag for phone (numbers).

The contact prefix is pointless, why would we make everybody who doesn't use 
presets type longer key names when there are no alternatives which would 
require to distinguish the tag from? People who do use presets don't have to 
care for tag names anyway.

If you search for "contact phone" the first hit is key:contact, one could argue 
a better result would be showing key:phone first for this search term as well, 
as it is the mostly used tag for a generic phone number.

What about deprecating the contact: prefix, at least for phone? It doesn't seem 
it will ever make it and is basically a deliberate tag fragmentation.

Cheers Martin
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Re: [Tagging] phone vs contact:phone WAS Re: Multiple tags for one purpose

[Valor Naram]

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:phone and https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:contact don't provide any tagging method to tag numbers for emergency, general enquiries etc. Both keys just allow the tagging of one phone number on one object.But feel free to write a proposal to extend the tagging scheme of `phone` to:- `phone`- `phone:emergency`- `phone:night`- `phone:press`Feel free also to extend the `email` tag:- `email`- `email:press`- `email:legal`But we're drifting away from the topic "Multiple tags for one purpose". We should discuss the problem of "fragmentation" in general. But deprecating `contact:phone` in favor of `phone` can be the logical step.CheersSören Reinecke alias Valor Naram Original Message Subject: Re: [Tagging] phone vs contact:phone WAS Re: Multiple tags for one purposeFrom: Colin Smale To: tagging@openstreetmap.orgCC: 
Your model (using only phone=*) only allows an object to have a single phone number. How do you propose modelling multiple phone numbers on a single object? For example, one for general enquiries, one for emergencies, one for staff,...
Note I am not talking about tagging here, but trying to discuss the underlying data model.
 

On 2019-08-25 17:11, Valor Naram wrote:

> What about deprecating the contact: prefix, at least for phone? It doesn't seem it will ever make it and is basically a deliberate tag fragmentation.Yes, I recommend deprecating `contact:phone`
 Original Message Subject: [Tagging] phone vs contact:phone WAS Re: Multiple tags for one purposeFrom: Martin Koppenhoefer To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" CC: 
sent from a phone> On 25. Aug 2019, at 07:20, Warin wrote:> > Type 'phone' into the OSMwiki search box and you get redirected to the key 'phone=*'.> This gets preferential treatment to the key 'contact:phone=*'.seems fair that "key:phone" shows up first for a search for "phone", it's straightforward, and it's also the most used tag for phone (numbers).The contact prefix is pointless, why would we make everybody who doesn't use presets type longer key names when there are no alternatives which would require to distinguish the tag from? People who do use presets don't have to care for tag names anyway.If you search for "contact phone" the first hit is key:contact, one could argue a better result would be showing key:phone first for this search term as well, as it is the mostly used tag for a generic phone number.What about deprecating the contact: prefix, at least for phone? It doesn't seem it will ever make it and is basically a deliberate tag fragmentation.Cheers Martin ___Tagging mailing listTagging@openstreetmap.orghttps://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


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Re: [Tagging] phone vs contact:phone WAS Re: Multiple tags for one purpose

[Andy Mabbett]

On Sun, 25 Aug 2019 at 16:42, Colin Smale  wrote:
>
> Your model (using only phone=*) only allows an object to have a single phone 
> number. How do you propose modelling multiple phone numbers on a single 
> object? For example, one for general enquiries, one for emergencies, one for 
> staff,...

there are at least two possibilities:


phone=
phone:emergency=
phone:staff=

and:

phone=
emergency:phone=
staff:phone=

Neither of which requires "contact:"

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Tagging] phone vs contact:phone WAS Re: Multiple tags for one purpose

[Paul Allen]

On Sun, 25 Aug 2019 at 16:46, Colin Smale  wrote:

> Your model (using only phone=*) only allows an object to have a single
> phone number. How do you propose modelling multiple phone numbers on a
> single object? For example, one for general enquiries, one for emergencies,
> one for staff,...
>

I've seen this on car dealerships.  One number for the Hyundai franchise,
another for the VW
franchise, another for repairs and a repeat of one of the franchise numbers
for general
enquiries.  Some larger businesses have several numbers for different
purposes rather
than having everything go through a single number.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] phone vs contact:phone WAS Re: Multiple tags for one purpose

[Colin Smale]

Your model (using only phone=*) only allows an object to have a single
phone number. How do you propose modelling multiple phone numbers on a
single object? For example, one for general enquiries, one for
emergencies, one for staff,... 

Note I am not talking about tagging here, but trying to discuss the
underlying data model.

On 2019-08-25 17:11, Valor Naram wrote:

>> What about deprecating the contact: prefix, at least for phone? It doesn't 
>> seem it will ever make it and is basically a deliberate tag fragmentation.
> 
> Yes, I recommend deprecating `contact:phone`
> 
>  Original Message ----
> Subject: [Tagging] phone vs contact:phone WAS Re: Multiple tags for one 
> purpose
> From: Martin Koppenhoefer 
> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" 
> CC: 
> 
>> sent from a phone
>> 
>>> On 25. Aug 2019, at 07:20, Warin wrote:
>>> 
>>> Type 'phone' into the OSMwiki search box and you get redirected to the key 
>>> 'phone=*'.
>>> This gets preferential treatment to the key 'contact:phone=*'.
>> 
>> seems fair that "key:phone" shows up first for a search for "phone", it's 
>> straightforward, and it's also the most used tag for phone (numbers).
>> 
>> The contact prefix is pointless, why would we make everybody who doesn't use 
>> presets type longer key names when there are no alternatives which would 
>> require to distinguish the tag from? People who do use presets don't have to 
>> care for tag names anyway.
>> 
>> If you search for "contact phone" the first hit is key:contact, one could 
>> argue a better result would be showing key:phone first for this search term 
>> as well, as it is the mostly used tag for a generic phone number.
>> 
>> What about deprecating the contact: prefix, at least for phone? It doesn't 
>> seem it will ever make it and is basically a deliberate tag fragmentation.
>> 
>> Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] phone vs contact:phone WAS Re: Multiple tags for one purpose

[Valor Naram]

> What about deprecating the contact: prefix, at least for phone? It doesn’t seem it will ever make it and is basically a deliberate tag fragmentation.Yes, I recommend deprecating `contact:phone` Original Message Subject: [Tagging] phone vs contact:phone WAS Re: Multiple tags for one purposeFrom: Martin Koppenhoefer To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" CC: sent from a phone> On 25. Aug 2019, at 07:20, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:> > Type 'phone' into the OSMwiki search box and you get redirected to the key 'phone=*'.> This gets preferential treatment to the key 'contact:phone=*'.seems fair that “key:phone” shows up first for a search for “phone”, it’s straightforward, and it’s also the most used tag for phone (numbers).The contact prefix is pointless, why would we make everybody who doesn’t use presets type longer key names when there are no alternatives which would require to distinguish the tag from? People who do use presets don’t have to care for tag names anyway.If you search for “contact phone” the first hit is key:contact, one could argue a better result would be showing key:phone first for this search term as well, as it is the mostly used tag for a generic phone number.What about deprecating the contact: prefix, at least for phone? It doesn’t seem it will ever make it and is basically a deliberate tag fragmentation.Cheers Martin ___Tagging mailing listTagging@openstreetmap.orghttps://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging___
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[Tagging] phone vs contact:phone WAS Re: Multiple tags for one purpose

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 25. Aug 2019, at 07:20, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Type 'phone' into the OSMwiki search box and you get redirected to the key 
> 'phone=*'.
> This gets preferential treatment to the key 'contact:phone=*'.


seems fair that “key:phone” shows up first for a search for “phone”, it’s 
straightforward, and it’s also the most used tag for phone (numbers).

The contact prefix is pointless, why would we make everybody who doesn’t use 
presets type longer key names when there are no alternatives which would 
require to distinguish the tag from? People who do use presets don’t have to 
care for tag names anyway.

If you search for “contact phone” the first hit is key:contact, one could argue 
a better result would be showing key:phone first for this search term as well, 
as it is the mostly used tag for a generic phone number.

What about deprecating the contact: prefix, at least for phone? It doesn’t seem 
it will ever make it and is basically a deliberate tag fragmentation.

Cheers Martin 
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