Re: [Tagging] the nature of large-scale paid edits (was Re: Service road)

[Philip Barnes]

On Friday, 8 November 2019, Warin wrote:
> 
> There is simply too much other stuff to do that be worried by every 
> driveway. So I only map them where they are of some interest to other 
> than the resident.
> 
This has been mine, and many other OSM mappers view up until recently.

However home delivery has suddenly become big business, and OSM has become the 
goto map for one of the biggest in the business. Driveway mapping is important. 
It enables delivery drivers to effectively find their delivery points. The 
nearest public highway is not always the route to the front door.

Amazon Logistics have been mapping in The Shire for sometime now. I have 
generally found them helpful and willing to listen and learn.

I have helped them by taking photos of some of the places where  they have made 
mistakes to illustrate what is actually on the ground.

They are mapping in places they have no experience of. I have not really had 
any issues once the shared driveway concept is explained.

My view is be polite, explain things and remember that whilst I can interpret a 
lot from aerial imagery of the rural midlands, if I look at imagery of India 
the colours and shades are different as it is hotter and dryer and I don't have 
a clue.

One of the issues I do see is that there is a very high turnover of mappers so 
explaining things does need to be done a bit more frequently than I would have 
expected.

Phil (trigpoint)
-- 
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Re: [Tagging] the nature of large-scale paid edits (was Re: Service road)

[Dave F via Tagging]

On 08/11/2019 03:32, Warin wrote:
There is simply too much other stuff to do that be worried by every 
driveway. So I only map them where they are of some interest to other 
than the resident.


Apologies Warin, but this has just made me genuinely lol. You have an 
opinion on almost every minutiae of OSM tagging to the extent I'm 
surprised you have time to actually add any data. I'm so pleasantly 
surprised you've decided to draw a line in the sand at driveways. :-)


DaveF

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Re: [Tagging] the nature of large-scale paid edits (was Re: Service road)

[Mateusz Konieczny]

8 Nov 2019, 01:45 by cliff...@snowandsnow.us:

>  Maybe one day our emergency services will consider using OSM.
>
Aready used in Poland (or maybe were used) due to problems with official data
(refusal to provide official road data to firefighters, datasets were disjoint 
on edges
of internal boundaries, outdated data made OSM a better source).
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Re: [Tagging] the nature of large-scale paid edits (was Re: Service road)

[Warin]

On 08/11/19 08:58, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:



On Fri, 8 Nov 2019 at 07:34, Clifford Snow > wrote:


Every time I've contacted one of the Amazon's team, they have
responded and taken responsibility to update their edits. We
should first try to contact them before going through DWG.


I certainly didn't mean to come on heavy, just a friendly "Hi, this 
has been happening - do you have guidelines for your staff? If so, 
could you please share them with us"


This thread shows the number of opinions on how to map service roads.


I've just been having a conversation with someone who thought that 
named streets in an industrial estate should be service roads as they 
wouldn't usually be used by the general public. That's a discussion 
for a separate thread though!


BTW my driveway is a shared driveway. I've mapped it as a driveway.


On the subject of mapping driveways - do people only map up to the 
front fence (especially in suburban areas), or all the way to the 
garage / house ie everything visible on aerial imagery?


There is simply too much other stuff to do that be worried by every 
driveway. So I only map them where they are of some interest to other 
than the resident.


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Re: [Tagging] the nature of large-scale paid edits (was Re: Service road)

[Clifford Snow]

On Thu, Nov 7, 2019 at 1:59 PM Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

> On the subject of mapping driveways - do people only map up to the front
> fence (especially in suburban areas), or all the way to the garage / house
> ie everything visible on aerial imagery?
>
> I map to the garage to or in the case of a farmyard, to the general
parking area since it's hard to tell which structure might the garage. I
also don't map too many driveways, only when I feel like getting to the
house a user might not know which service road to take.

Where I've lived there are not that many fenced yards. But if I discovered
a fence with a gate, I would most likely add the gate and extend the
driveway to the garage.

In both cases I'm thinking about emergency services like fire and
ambulances. I'm happy that amazon is adding so many. Maybe one day our
emergency services will consider using OSM.

-- 
@osm_washington
www.snowandsnow.us
OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
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Re: [Tagging] the nature of large-scale paid edits (was Re: Service road)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 7. Nov 2019, at 23:00, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:
> 
> On the subject of mapping driveways - do people only map up to the front 
> fence (especially in suburban areas), or all the way to the garage / house ie 
> everything visible on aerial imagery?


I’m doing it occasionally, in theory I would expect these ways should be 
mapped, as they are there, depict the structure of the area, etc. but there are 
just so many that whatever I’ve done in this direction is still very few with 
respect to all that would have to be done. There are situations where I think 
it is more important (both, in dense urban areas the shared (among the 
residents) driveways to internal parkings and backyards and in the countryside 
longer driveways to places that are not directly on the road). The least 
interesting are those short ones from the garage to the street in single family 
detached housing estates, but still they create crossings with the sidewalk so 
there is some kind of relevance.


Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] the nature of large-scale paid edits (was Re: Service road)

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Fri, 8 Nov 2019 at 07:34, Clifford Snow  wrote:

> Every time I've contacted one of the Amazon's team, they have responded
> and taken responsibility to update their edits. We should first try to
> contact them before going through DWG.
>

I certainly didn't mean to come on heavy, just a friendly "Hi, this has
been happening - do you have guidelines for your staff? If so, could you
please share them with us"

This thread shows the number of opinions on how to map service roads.
>

I've just been having a conversation with someone who thought that named
streets in an industrial estate should be service roads as they wouldn't
usually be used by the general public. That's a discussion for a separate
thread though!


> BTW my driveway is a shared driveway. I've mapped it as a driveway.
>

On the subject of mapping driveways - do people only map up to the front
fence (especially in suburban areas), or all the way to the garage / house
ie everything visible on aerial imagery?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] the nature of large-scale paid edits (was Re: Service road)

[Clifford Snow]

Every time I've contacted one of the Amazon's team, they have responded and
taken responsibility to update their edits. We should first try to contact
them before going through DWG.

This thread shows the number of opinions on how to map service roads. BTW
my driveway is a shared driveway. I've mapped it as a driveway.

Best,
Clifford

On Thu, Nov 7, 2019 at 1:17 PM Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, 8 Nov 2019 at 03:21, Greg Troxel  wrote:
>
>> I am not aware of them publishing their guidelines; perhaps someone in
>> Amazon management will
>> speak up in this thread and point to where that is published.
>>
>
> Or possibly someone from the DWG (?) could contact them?
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] the nature of large-scale paid edits (was Re: Service road)

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Fri, 8 Nov 2019 at 03:21, Greg Troxel  wrote:

> I am not aware of them publishing their guidelines; perhaps someone in
> Amazon management will
> speak up in this thread and point to where that is published.
>

Or possibly someone from the DWG (?) could contact them?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] the nature of large-scale paid edits (was Re: Service road)

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 11/7/19 18:19, Greg Troxel wrote:
> My point is that we have a lot of mappers and a set of norms (which are
> pretty fuzzy and/or a bit contradictory).  We have rules about
> mechanical edits (including imports), since they change things in a
> large-scale systematic way.

Yes. If you are a programmer and instruct your code to change all A's to
B's in OSM then it's a mechanical edit and rules apply (because much can
go wrong, aka "with great power comes great responsibility" etc).

And if you are a boss and instruct your 5000 employees to change all A's
to B's that should be treated similarly. That's why we have the
organised editing guidelines:
https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Organised_Editing_Guidelines

> So I'm not opposed to large-scale paid editing; i just think it needs
> some caution and that the guidance to paid mapeprs needs to be
> published to the OSM community.

The guidelines request that, among other things, "if participants will
receive training material or written instructions, a copy of, or link
to, these materials" should be published.

Generally, if an organisation does not follow the guidelines and this
leads to problems, they should be held accountable & their edits are
liable to being reverted. Of course one would start with a friendly
pointer...

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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[Tagging] the nature of large-scale paid edits (was Re: Service road)

[Greg Troxel]

Dave F via Tagging  writes:

> On 06/11/2019 18:04, Greg Troxel wrote:
>>
>> I think a shared driveway is still a driveway.
>
> This is the crux. The only distinguishing attribute from what we'd all
> tag as a driveway is that's it's shared.
> A driveway is designated as privately owned rather than by the local
> authority. It isn't defined by how many own it.
>
> As Greg pointed out no one gave it a specific name in this thread. All
> references were to it being a 'shared driveway'.

And I guess, if it's not service=driveway, how does one claim it it is
still highway=service?

>> If other people had tagged in driveway, and amazon removed it as part
>> of a large-scale paid edit, I think that's totally not ok.
>
> I'm unsure if this is a blanket policy of Amazon, I think it maybe
> just this one editor.

If it's just one editor, that's not a big deal.

>> I see large-scale paid edits as part way to mechanical edits, and think
>> they have to be more deferential than normal mappers.
>
> I really think OSM as a whole needs to steer away from considering
> edits based purely on their size as something to be fearful of. As
> long as the data is accurate & improves OSM's database quality then it
> should be welcomed.

Certainly; I didn't mean to suggest that edits that meet OSM's norms
should be unwelcome.

My point is that we have a lot of mappers and a set of norms (which are
pretty fuzzy and/or a bit contradictory).  We have rules about
mechanical edits (including imports), since they change things in a
large-scale systematic way.

When we have a very large set of edits that are under the common policy
direction of one entity, then that starts to have some of the
characteristics of mechanical edits.

We have had problems in Massachusetts with Amazon mappers removing
landuse=conservation (which has been deprecated world-wide by the
boundary=protected_area fans -- who *wrongly* think it has the same
semantics -- but landuse=conservation is very much in use in
Massachusetts, whose people are not vigorous wiki fiddlers).

So what I meant is that adding driveways that are actually there (which
by all accounts is what they are doing), tagging them as driveways, and
access=private, is all 100% great.

But, any removal of service=driveway from shared driveways, if under the
guidance of the organization, is not ok.  I am not aware of them
publishing their guidelines; perhaps someone in Amazon management will
speak up in this thread and point to where that is published.

> With Amazon specifically, the data is coming from their GPS recordings
> & is being gradually added. (Unsure whether the contributors being
> paid makes any difference). Overall I'd say their edits contain the
> same amount of errors as the average OSM contributor.

Being paid makes a difference because paid people do what they are told
by the people paying them.  So an edit with 1000 paid mappers has a very
significant aspect of a mecchanical edit.

When the the guidance is "add driveways that we know exist from GPS, and
tag them highway=service service=driveway access=private", then
everything is fvine, because that's what a normal mapper who had the GPS
data and the inclination to spend time on it would do.

So I'm not opposed to large-scale paid editing; i just think it needs
some caution and that the guidance to paid mapeprs needs to be
published to the OSM community.

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