Re: [Tagging] trees and waterways
2010/9/13 Pieren pier...@gmail.com: No, that's exactly the same as 'oneway=no' on two-ways roads. When the tag is not present, we assume that the road is two ways. That's it. If it's wrong, then fix it by adding the oneway tag. It is the same for waterways and the direction of the way. If it's wrong, then reverse the direction of the way with your prefered editor. We have similar conventions for the coastline, we don't have/need a tag saying which side is the land and which side is the water and nobody complains. +1, there is also other similar conventions like barrier=retaining_wall. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] trees and waterways
On Tue, 14 Sep 2010 09:49:54 +0200 M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: No, that's exactly the same as 'oneway=no' on two-ways roads. When the tag is not present, we assume that the road is two ways. That's it. If it's wrong, then fix it by adding the oneway tag. It is the same for waterways and the direction of the way. If it's wrong, then reverse the direction of the way with your prefered editor. We have similar conventions for the coastline, we don't have/need a tag saying which side is the land and which side is the water and nobody complains. +1, there is also other similar conventions like barrier=retaining_wall. This is detailing tags which have two parts to their meanings. Really this is a form of shorthand which is convenient for those who know the code, and not to those who don't comprehend the 'code'. What sort of a difference does this make to the computed use of the data? We can only make a decision on whether these conventions continue when we understand how it affects the data use. There are good arguments each way for the input of the data. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] trees and waterways
On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 7:19 AM, Pierre-Alain Dorange pdora...@mac.comwrote: Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: Yes i understand, but own could you figure flow=downstream exist ? You must read a manual to know that. By noting its presence on an already-mapped waterway. And if you don't know about it, at least you aren't doing anything wrong by leaving it off. Thats a good point. No, that's exactly the same as 'oneway=no' on two-ways roads. When the tag is not present, we assume that the road is two ways. That's it. If it's wrong, then fix it by adding the oneway tag. It is the same for waterways and the direction of the way. If it's wrong, then reverse the direction of the way with your prefered editor. We have similar conventions for the coastline, we don't have/need a tag saying which side is the land and which side is the water and nobody complains. Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] trees and waterways
On Sunday 12 September 2010 01:24:51 Nathan Edgars II wrote: On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 7:10 PM, David Groom revi...@pacific-rim.net wrote: I think the difference can be summed up as: With the tagging of trees the definition in the wiki was unclear; lone or significant can mean different things to different people. With the tagging of waterways the comment that the way should be drawn in the direction of the water flow is quite clear, specific, and not really open to any misinterpretation. That's true, but it's not the whole story. Much of the problem with trees is that enough people had tagged them without knowing what the wiki said, and so the actual tagging deviated from the documentation on the wiki. That's also the case with waterway direction. If you think that the current convention is not mentioned in enough places in the wiki, then you can easily add it to more wiki pages. Nobody is going to complain about that. If you find rivers not mapped according to the current convention, you can fix them. Nobody is going to complain about that. If you are going to advocate the misuse of a tag that means something else, then people will complain. Not only because it is misuse, but also because it doesn't solve your problem. People mapped those rivers wrong because they either didn't know the direction of flow, didn't care for the direction of flow or were not aware of the current convention. Changing the current convention does have _absolutely_ no effect on any of these causes. Last but not least: What people want to change about trees is after the tagging changed. That is documenting what happens. What you want to change about rivers, is trying to force your world view onto other people. This last is generally considered bad form in OSM. -- m.v.g., Cartinus ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] trees and waterways
Nathan Edgars II wrote: I'm wondering what the difference is between the recent discussions about trees and waterways. Even the opponent(s) of changing the wiki's tree definition didn't try to argue that the wiki definition was better than the alternative. There was disagreement over whether changing it would cause a loss of information, and whether it could be tolerated. With waterways, some actually seem to like the current definition. So the difference is that the wiki definition for natural=tree is quite unanimously considered a bad choice. This makes changing the definition more attractive than trying to increase acceptance of the definition. If the definition itself is considered decent, however, educating mappers and fixing existing errors can be a more appealing option. Tobias Knerr ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] trees and waterways
Sam Vekemans acrosscanadatra...@gmail.com wrote: For the Canada canvec dataset, the map feature is available, and direction of the way was not taken into account. So the tag 'oneway=yes' was not used as a preset. oneway=yes has nothing to do with river flow, oneway indicate a legal issue for transport (in river case it can apply to segment of a river that is allowed for boat only in oneway). If we really need a tag to indicate river flow, it can't be oneway. And if we define a tag for flow, how would you define the direction, what would be the reference ? -- Pierre-Alain Dorange OSM experiences : http://www.leretourdelautruche.com/map/ ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] trees and waterways
On 9/12/10 12:29 PM, Pierre-Alain Dorange wrote: If we really need a tag to indicate river flow, it can't be oneway. And if we define a tag for flow, how would you define the direction, what would be the reference ? you'd want it to work with respect to the direction of the way, as is done with oneway. a waterflow=* tag would probably look very much like oneway, with -1 for flow which is the reverse of the direction of the way. richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] trees and waterways
With the current standard, how do you add a source tag for the direction? source:direction=I dropped dye into the canal and watched it dissipate would conflict with a direction=* tag. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] trees and waterways
What properties of a way do you look at to determine whether it was mapped in the proper direction? Do you have to check whether the node IDs increase in the desired direction, or is there an easier way? Also, if it turns out that part or all of a way was mapped in the wrong direction, what is the best way of correcting that direction, short of deleting the problem section and remapping it? ---Original Email--- Subject :Re: [Tagging] trees and waterways From :mailto:pdora...@mac.com Date :Sun Sep 12 11:29:11 America/Chicago 2010 Sam Vekemans acrosscanadatra...@gmail.com wrote: For the Canada canvec dataset, the map feature is available, and direction of the way was not taken into account. So the tag 'oneway=yes' was not used as a preset. oneway=yes has nothing to do with river flow, oneway indicate a legal issue for transport (in river case it can apply to segment of a river that is allowed for boat only in oneway). If we really need a tag to indicate river flow, it can't be oneway. And if we define a tag for flow, how would you define the direction, what would be the reference ? -- Pierre-Alain Dorange OSM experiences : http://www.leretourdelautruche.com/map/ ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] trees and waterways
John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: What properties of a way do you look at to determine whether it was mapped in the proper direction? Do you have to check whether the node IDs increase in the desired direction, or is there an easier way? Also, if it turns out that part or all of a way was mapped in the wrong direction, what is the best way of correcting that direction, short of deleting the problem section and remapping it? Using JOSM it's a one click. JOSM show the drawing direction of ways (with arrows when selected or always depending on settings) and a simple button reverse the selected way(s). Potlach has a little icon with an arrow that show he global direction of the selected way and the same icon reverse the way. Not so easy but not difficult. -- Pierre-Alain Dorange OSM experiences : http://www.leretourdelautruche.com/map/ ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] trees and waterways
Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net wrote: On 9/12/10 12:29 PM, Pierre-Alain Dorange wrote: If we really need a tag to indicate river flow, it can't be oneway. And if we define a tag for flow, how would you define the direction, what would be the reference ? you'd want it to work with respect to the direction of the way, as is done with oneway. a waterflow=* tag would probably look very much like oneway, with -1 for flow which is the reverse of the direction of the way. So the reference for direction would be the direction (drawing) of he way. It would be close to what it's now as it's this drawing direction that should indicate the flow. But it would be explicit. -- Pierre-Alain Dorange OSM experiences : http://www.leretourdelautruche.com/map/ ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] trees and waterways
On Sunday 12 September 2010 19:39:01 Pierre-Alain Dorange wrote: Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net wrote: On 9/12/10 12:29 PM, Pierre-Alain Dorange wrote: If we really need a tag to indicate river flow, it can't be oneway. And if we define a tag for flow, how would you define the direction, what would be the reference ? you'd want it to work with respect to the direction of the way, as is done with oneway. a waterflow=* tag would probably look very much like oneway, with -1 for flow which is the reverse of the direction of the way. So the reference for direction would be the direction (drawing) of he way. It would be close to what it's now as it's this drawing direction that should indicate the flow. But it would be explicit. And then you would only tag the special cases. We don't put oneway=no on every road either. -- m.v.g., Cartinus ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] trees and waterways
I am using my phone at the moment, not my PC, so I can't test this. What happens if the way, or section of a way, that you have selected has a portion mapped in one direction, and another portion mapped in the opposite direction (which could easily happen if different parts of the way had been mapped by different people)? Do you get an error message, or do JOSM and Potlatch go by the majority direction? ---Original Email--- Subject :Re: [Tagging] trees and waterways From :mailto:pdora...@mac.com Date :Sun Sep 12 12:39:02 America/Chicago 2010 John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: What properties of a way do you look at to determine whether it was mapped in the proper direction? Do you have to check whether the node IDs increase in the desired direction, or is there an easier way? Also, if it turns out that part or all of a way was mapped in the wrong direction, what is the best way of correcting that direction, short of deleting the problem section and remapping it? Using JOSM it's a one click. JOSM show the drawing direction of ways (with arrows when selected or always depending on settings) and a simple button reverse the selected way(s). Potlach has a little icon with an arrow that show he global direction of the selected way and the same icon reverse the way. Not so easy but not difficult. -- Pierre-Alain Dorange OSM experiences : http://www.leretourdelautruche.com/map/ ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] trees and waterways
On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 2:38 PM, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: I am using my phone at the moment, not my PC, so I can't test this. What happens if the way, or section of a way, that you have selected has a portion mapped in one direction, and another portion mapped in the opposite direction (which could easily happen if different parts of the way had been mapped by different people)? Do you get an error message, or do JOSM and Potlatch go by the majority direction? Then it's mapped incorrectly. If you have a way from A to B and you extend it from A, it now goes from C to B. If the nodes went A-B-C the portion between A and B would be mapped twice. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] trees and waterways
John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: I am using my phone at the moment, not my PC, so I can't test this. What happens if the way, or section of a way, that you have selected has a portion mapped in one direction, and another portion mapped in the opposite direction (which could easily happen if different parts of the way had been mapped by different people)? Do you get an error message, or do JOSM and Potlatch go by the majority direction? Don't know for Potlach but JOSM revert all ways selected. In the context you expose, you must select only the portion in the wrong way then revert or you can merge wrong way section with a right way section (JOSM ask you the direction). If the river (multiple sections) has been include in the waterway relation (1), you can easily check sections with JOSM by opening the relation window and sort the way, it qwill display the continuity (with small icons on the right) so you can see if the whole river is correctly ordered (all ways in the same direction). note : In France we began using widely this relation tag and it's also very good tool to check river mapping advancement and to use efficiently waterway (2). (1) http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relations/Proposed/Waterway (2) http://beta.letuffe.org/cron/etat-cours-eau/suivi-cours-eau.php http://beta.letuffe.org/ressources/cartes/hydrographie-france.png -- Pierre-Alain Dorange OSM experiences : http://www.leretourdelautruche.com/map/ ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] trees and waterways
On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 2:00 PM, Cartinus carti...@xs4all.nl wrote: And then you would only tag the special cases. We don't put oneway=no on every road either. But, in my experience, we do put oneway=yes on every motorway. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] trees and waterways
Tagging oneway=yes on a motorway is an example of tagging a special case. The general assumption on roads is that they are two-way unless tagged otherwise. Tagging the motorway as oneway=yes makes sure that routing calculations will work correctly. Sections of motorways sometimes become two-way (usually with a safety barrier down the middle) when the other half of the motorway is closed for road construction. ---Original Email--- Subject :Re: [Tagging] trees and waterways From :mailto:nerou...@gmail.com Date :Sun Sep 12 13:53:47 America/Chicago 2010 On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 2:00 PM, Cartinus carti...@xs4all.nl wrote: And then you would only tag the special cases. We don't put oneway=no on every road either. But, in my experience, we do put oneway=yes on every motorway. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] trees and waterways
On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 3:09 PM, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: Tagging oneway=yes on a motorway is an example of tagging a special case. The general assumption on roads is that they are two-way unless tagged otherwise. Tagging the motorway as oneway=yes makes sure that routing calculations will work correctly. Sections of motorways sometimes become two-way (usually with a safety barrier down the middle) when the other half of the motorway is closed for road construction. Actually highway=motorway implies oneway=yes: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dmotorway ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] trees and waterways
Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: Actually highway=motorway implies oneway=yes: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dmotorway And river implies boat=yes... Those are special cases not the standard assumption for highway=* or waterway=* Idon't really understand where we are going in this discussion. Did you want to use oneway for river ? Or did you want a special tag to explicitly express rover flow (based on the drawing direction) ? I agree that the waterway flow would be more explicit for newbie, but to know the new tag they should read the wiki and the default rule (drawing direction is flow direction) is allready there. If they do not read the actual wiki, why do they read the new one ? But perhaps should the wiki be more precise on this point. -- Pierre-Alain Dorange OSM experiences : http://www.leretourdelautruche.com/map/ ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] trees and waterways
On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 3:39 PM, Pierre-Alain Dorange pdora...@mac.com wrote: I agree that the waterway flow would be more explicit for newbie, but to know the new tag they should read the wiki and the default rule (drawing direction is flow direction) is allready there. If they do not read the actual wiki, why do they read the new one ? This isn't just for newbies. I've been here for almost a year and I just found out about this convention a few weeks ago. I'm the kind of person that doesn't bother to read the manual unless necessary, and the meaning of most tags is clear from their rendering or name. A tag like flow=downstream on waterways would have told me that I needed to figure out what this tag means. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] trees and waterways
Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: I agree that the waterway flow would be more explicit for newbie, but to know the new tag they should read the wiki and the default rule (drawing direction is flow direction) is allready there. If they do not read the actual wiki, why do they read the new one ? This isn't just for newbies. I've been here for almost a year and I just found out about this convention a few weeks ago. I'm the kind of person that doesn't bother to read the manual unless necessary, and the meaning of most tags is clear from their rendering or name. A tag like flow=downstream on waterways would have told me that I needed to figure out what this tag means. Yes i understand, but own could you figure flow=downstream exist ? You must read a manual to know that. I we decide (not both of us, we must be more) to change river flow convention (from drawing direction to flow tag), we're facing a problem with river allready drawn correctly (a majority in France where we conduct a project for that). We have to ask many user to redo their job be adding a new tag. On the orher side, a flow tag is explicit (but need to be read in the manual, noone can invent it) and tell directly what is the flow direction. My point of view on the problem is that flow is not so important in OSM. For example, I do not know map that render flow actually ; but it could be in the future. And also that users, to know that they must add a flow tag to river, will have to read the wiki. And the actual wiki explain own thing works for flow (drawing direction). In fact i do not believe adding this tag will help. In fact, i think it will change nothing. If people do not read the wiki they will continue to ignore conventions. The only positive thing with flow tag would be to solve problem to know if a river was mapped with its flow or not. But the negative seems to heavy for me (need to modifying all existing river correctly mapped). (note that i also do not allways reading f*** manual, but for OSM a use a lot the wiki, doesnt mean i do not make mistake of course) -- Pierre-Alain Dorange OSM experiences : http://www.leretourdelautruche.com/map/ ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] trees and waterways
One type of map that would benefit from showing the direction of waterway flow would be one intended for use with canoes, rowboats, or other muscle-powered small boats. Paddling in the same direction as a river's current is much less effort than paddling against the current. ---Original Email--- Subject :Re: [Tagging] trees and waterways From :mailto:pdora...@mac.com Date :Sun Sep 12 15:37:45 America/Chicago 2010 Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: I agree that the waterway flow would be more explicit for newbie, but to know the new tag they should read the wiki and the default rule (drawing direction is flow direction) is allready there. If they do not read the actual wiki, why do they read the new one ? This isn't just for newbies. I've been here for almost a year and I just found out about this convention a few weeks ago. I'm the kind of person that doesn't bother to read the manual unless necessary, and the meaning of most tags is clear from their rendering or name. A tag like flow=downstream on waterways would have told me that I needed to figure out what this tag means. Yes i understand, but own could you figure flow=downstream exist ? You must read a manual to know that. I we decide (not both of us, we must be more) to change river flow convention (from drawing direction to flow tag), we're facing a problem with river allready drawn correctly (a majority in France where we conduct a project for that). We have to ask many user to redo their job be adding a new tag. On the orher side, a flow tag is explicit (but need to be read in the manual, noone can invent it) and tell directly what is the flow direction. My point of view on the problem is that flow is not so important in OSM. For example, I do not know map that render flow actually ; but it could be in the future. And also that users, to know that they must add a flow tag to river, will have to read the wiki. And the actual wiki explain own thing works for flow (drawing direction). In fact i do not believe adding this tag will help. In fact, i think it will change nothing. If people do not read the wiki they will continue to ignore conventions. The only positive thing with flow tag would be to solve problem to know if a river was mapped with its flow or not. But the negative seems to heavy for me (need to modifying all existing river correctly mapped). (note that i also do not allways reading f*** manual, but for OSM a use a lot the wiki, doesnt mean i do not make mistake of course) -- Pierre-Alain Dorange OSM experiences : http://www.leretourdelautruche.com/map/ ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] trees and waterways
On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 4:37 PM, Pierre-Alain Dorange pdora...@mac.com wrote: Yes i understand, but own could you figure flow=downstream exist ? You must read a manual to know that. By noting its presence on an already-mapped waterway. And if you don't know about it, at least you aren't doing anything wrong by leaving it off. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] trees and waterways
On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 4:46 PM, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: One type of map that would benefit from showing the direction of waterway flow would be one intended for use with canoes, rowboats, or other muscle-powered small boats. Paddling in the same direction as a river's current is much less effort than paddling against the current. It's also useful from an environmental standpoint: where does pollution from this factory end up? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] trees and waterways
Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: Yes i understand, but own could you figure flow=downstream exist ? You must read a manual to know that. By noting its presence on an already-mapped waterway. And if you don't know about it, at least you aren't doing anything wrong by leaving it off. Thats a good point. -- Pierre-Alain Dorange OSM experiences : http://www.leretourdelautruche.com/map/ ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] trees and waterways
I'm wondering what the difference is between the recent discussions about trees and waterways. Here's the way things look to me: *The wiki says something should be tagged a certain way: (lone or significant tree for natural=tree | direction of the way should be downstream for waterway=river, stream, and maybe other values) *People don't always see the definition on the wiki, and thus don't tag according to it, instead: (using natural=tree for any tree | not determining which way a waterway flows and drawing it in that direction) *Many features are now mapped differently from how the wiki says Yet the result is different: with trees, consensus seems to be to change the definition, while with waterways, we seem to be avoiding the problem. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] trees and waterways
On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 5:16 PM, Cartinus carti...@xs4all.nl wrote: In the second case there is only a problem according to one person. The other people are not ignoring the problem.They are just smarter. Oh fuck off. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] trees and waterways
On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pierre-Alain Dorange pdora...@mac.com wrote: ... Perhaps have you a proposition. But for my part, it seems natural to use the natural flow of the way has the natural flow of the river. It may be natural once one knows that you're supposed to represent the direction. But I've come across many waterways that were mapped without regard for the direction. Three examples, mapped by three different people: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/71760642 Eight Mile Canal: flows west into the St. Johns River http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/44644481 Canal L-406: flows south into Canal L-405 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/7044872 Venetian Canal: flows north into Lake Maitland (I believe) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] trees and waterways
On Sat, 11 Sep 2010 17:45:04 -0400 Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pierre-Alain Dorange pdora...@mac.com wrote: ... Perhaps have you a proposition. But for my part, it seems natural to use the natural flow of the way has the natural flow of the river. It may be natural once one knows that you're supposed to represent the direction. But I've come across many waterways that were mapped without regard for the direction. Three examples, mapped by three different people: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/71760642 Eight Mile Canal: flows west into the St. Johns River http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/44644481 Canal L-406: flows south into Canal L-405 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/7044872 Venetian Canal: flows north into Lake Maitland (I believe) You could add rivers I have mapped to that list (Murray, Darling, Murrumbidgee, Lachlan) although I think the directions may have been edited. At places you would find that the rivers I did were made of segments which go in different directions because I had no care for the direction ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] trees and waterways
- Original Message - From: Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools tagging@openstreetmap.org Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 9:38 PM Subject: [Tagging] trees and waterways I'm wondering what the difference is between the recent discussions about trees and waterways. Here's the way things look to me: *The wiki says something should be tagged a certain way: (lone or significant tree for natural=tree | direction of the way should be downstream for waterway=river, stream, and maybe other values) *People don't always see the definition on the wiki, and thus don't tag according to it, instead: (using natural=tree for any tree | not determining which way a waterway flows and drawing it in that direction) *Many features are now mapped differently from how the wiki says Yet the result is different: with trees, consensus seems to be to change the definition, while with waterways, we seem to be avoiding the problem. I think the difference can be summed up as: With the tagging of trees the definition in the wiki was unclear; lone or significant can mean different things to different people. With the tagging of waterways the comment that the way should be drawn in the direction of the water flow is quite clear, specific, and not really open to any misinterpretation. David ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] trees and waterways
Hi, For the Canada canvec dataset, the map feature is available, and direction of the way was not taken into account. So the tag 'oneway=yes' was not used as a preset. However, for those who are interested in making the waterflow correct (and render an arrow). In Canada we do have geobase National Hydrography set that shows that tag (the data has been converted into osm format and is available). And for the rest of the world, by looking at the contour lines on the cyclemap (or created from groundtruth contours) you can extrapolate what direction the water flows and add the oneway tag to confirm this. cheers, sam On 9/11/10, Elizabeth Dodd ed...@billiau.net wrote: On Sat, 11 Sep 2010 17:45:04 -0400 Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pierre-Alain Dorange pdora...@mac.com wrote: ... Perhaps have you a proposition. But for my part, it seems natural to use the natural flow of the way has the natural flow of the river. It may be natural once one knows that you're supposed to represent the direction. But I've come across many waterways that were mapped without regard for the direction. Three examples, mapped by three different people: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/71760642 Eight Mile Canal: flows west into the St. Johns River http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/44644481 Canal L-406: flows south into Canal L-405 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/7044872 Venetian Canal: flows north into Lake Maitland (I believe) You could add rivers I have mapped to that list (Murray, Darling, Murrumbidgee, Lachlan) although I think the directions may have been edited. At places you would find that the rivers I did were made of segments which go in different directions because I had no care for the direction ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Twitter: @Acrosscanada Blogs: http://acrosscanadatrails.posterous.com/ http://Acrosscanadatrails.blogspot.com Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/sam.vekemans Skype: samvekemans IRC: irc://irc.oftc.net #osm-ca Canadian OSM channel (an open chat room) @Acrosscanadatrails ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] trees and waterways
- Original Message - From: Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools tagging@openstreetmap.org Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 10:45 PM Subject: Re: [Tagging] trees and waterways On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pierre-Alain Dorange pdora...@mac.com wrote: ... Perhaps have you a proposition. But for my part, it seems natural to use the natural flow of the way has the natural flow of the river. It may be natural once one knows that you're supposed to represent the direction. But I've come across many waterways that were mapped without regard for the direction. Three examples, mapped by three different people: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/71760642 Eight Mile Canal: flows west into the St. Johns River http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/44644481 Canal L-406: flows south into Canal L-405 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/7044872 Venetian Canal: flows north into Lake Maitland (I believe) It is quite possible that the persons who mapped those waterways did not know the direction of the flow when mapping them. They may have felt it was best to at least map the fact the river existed, and then hope that someone with greater knowledge would later come along and check / correct the direction of flow. Alternatively they may not have realised they were supposed to map the waterway so its direction was the same as the river flow. We do have many people of different OSM experience contributing to the map. Maybe you could politely ask the people who mapped these rivers if there are aware of the preferred way of drawing them. In that way they are less likely to make the same mistake again. The mapping of many features added to OSM are over time refined and improved, in this way the crowd makes a better map. You have noted the direction of the ways ware wrong, and are thus able to correct them and improve the OSM data. David ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] trees and waterways
On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 7:10 PM, David Groom revi...@pacific-rim.net wrote: I think the difference can be summed up as: With the tagging of trees the definition in the wiki was unclear; lone or significant can mean different things to different people. With the tagging of waterways the comment that the way should be drawn in the direction of the water flow is quite clear, specific, and not really open to any misinterpretation. That's true, but it's not the whole story. Much of the problem with trees is that enough people had tagged them without knowing what the wiki said, and so the actual tagging deviated from the documentation on the wiki. That's also the case with waterway direction. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] trees and waterways
On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 7:22 PM, David Groom revi...@pacific-rim.net wrote: Alternatively they may not have realised they were supposed to map the waterway so its direction was the same as the river flow. Almost certainly this. There's not even anything on the main waterway page; you have to go to one of the subpages to see the direction convention. The mapping of many features added to OSM are over time refined and improved, in this way the crowd makes a better map. You have noted the direction of the ways ware wrong, and are thus able to correct them and improve the OSM data. I only noticed most of them because I went looking for examples. Otherwise I would have had no way of realizing the direction didn't match the wiki. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
