Re: [Tagging] AirBnB

[Andy Mabbett]

On 19 March 2016 at 23:18, Dave Swarthout  wrote:

> My original intent in this post was to determine what tags to use in
> describing the guest house as an AirBnB venue.

A guest house may be listed on AirBnB and via a number of other
agencies. If we're listing one agency (and I'm not convinced we
should), we should list them all - and with a generic property.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Tagging] AirBnB

[Dave Swarthout]

On Sun, Mar 20, 2016 at 5:53 PM, Janko Mihelić  wrote:

> The best thing you can do is map the exact address of the place, and the
> front door. Then if someone wants to find where it is, they call the owner
> and ask for the address.


That's a problem in Thailand if you search for an English address because
there are so many ways to transliterate Thai into English and back again.
If attempting to search by address it's an almost insurmountable problem.
Sometimes a posted steet name has different English transliterations at
each end of it. No joke. Today I was working in a town called variously,
Ban Pa Dat, Ban Pa Dad, Ban Pa Daet, Ban Pha Daet, Ban Pha Dad, etc., it
goes on and on. Since the street names are derived from the town names I
think you can see the difficulty.

I think I'll just forget about it. I'm reminded too, as Joost pointed out,
that many of these places are private homes and some of those owners may
not want the locations made public for very good reasons. Perhaps that's
why the locations shown on the AirBnB site are so imprecise.

In the case of the example I used in my OP, there are signs over the door
and on several of the roads leading to it so I think I'll leave that one.

Thanks to all for your help,

Dave






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Re: [Tagging] AirBnB

[Colin Smale]

It looks like AirBnB are working on an API, including search by lat/lon.
That might be a better integration mechanism for the "click here for
more information" use case. 

https://www.quora.com/Does-Airbnb-have-a-publicly-accessible-programming-API


http://airbnbapi.org/#listing-search

--colin 

On 2016-03-20 11:53, Janko Mihelić wrote:

> The best thing you can do is map the exact address of the place, and the 
> front door. Then if someone wants to find where it is, they call the owner 
> and ask for the address.
> 
> Janko 
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Re: [Tagging] AirBnB

[Janko Mihelić]

The best thing you can do is map the exact address of the place, and the
front door. Then if someone wants to find where it is, they call the owner
and ask for the address.


Janko
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Re: [Tagging] AirBnB

[Philip Barnes]

On Sun, 2016-03-20 at 11:30 +0100, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> 
> 
> sent from a phone
> 
> Am 20.03.2016 um 11:17 schrieb joost schouppe 
> om>:
> 
> > adding something in the line of  externalid:airbnb=12345 and
> > website:airbnb=http://airbnb.com/property=12345 . 
> I insist on the notion that copying foreign keys from/to
> a proprietary db  into osm is likely not consented by that foreign db
> proprietor, and even if it was we shouldn't do it (e.g. because we
> don't control these keys and there is no guarantee whatsoever that
> these are stable)
> 
+1
Also why should be favour one booking company, if we add these tags
surely we have to treat all equally so we should also add late rooms,
booking.com and any others I haven't thought of. 
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Re: [Tagging] AirBnB

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 20.03.2016 um 11:17 schrieb joost schouppe :
> 
> adding something in the line of  externalid:airbnb=12345 and 
> website:airbnb=http://airbnb.com/property=12345 . 


I insist on the notion that copying foreign keys from/to a proprietary db  into 
osm is likely not consented by that foreign db proprietor, and even if it was 
we shouldn't do it (e.g. because we don't control these keys and there is no 
guarantee whatsoever that these are stable)

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Re: [Tagging] AirBnB

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 20.03.2016 um 00:18 schrieb Dave Swarthout :
> 
> If it turns out that such places are legitimate to tag, how should I indicate 
> that they are "administered" through AirBnB?


they aren't administered through Airbnb. Airbnb is just one of many websites 
and services that act as an agent to bring guests and hosts together, but as a 
host you can use many of these at the same time (there no exclusivity). It's 
similar to tagging that a venue has an ad in a newspaper: the newspaper isn't 
administering the venue.

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] AirBnB

[Holger Jeromin]

Dave Swarthout  Wrote in message:
> I'm looking for a consistent way to tag AirBnB locations. It's probably 
> sufficient to tag them as tourism=guest_house but personally as one who 
> frequently uses AirBnB, I would like to be able to locate them more precisely 
> than is possible using the maps on their website, which are not very exact. 
> The locations can be off by several city blocks and when one is pulling a big 
> roller bag along behind it would be nice be able to walk directly to the 
> correct location.
> In searching Taginfo, I saw only a few instances of the word "AirBnB" and 
> most of those were tagged as operator=AirBnB. As I understand it, the 
> operators are the owners of the property whereas AirBnB is a corporation that 
> contracts with those owners in some sort of a franchise arrangement.
> Another common tag containing the term "AirBnB" is the website URL that 
> points to the specific property. The one I'm working on at the moment is near 
> where I live and is quite a nice venue:
> https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/6020019
> 
> Suggestions?

Perhaps network = fits better. 

-- 
Holger


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Re: [Tagging] AirBnB

[Dave Swarthout]

My original intent in this post was to determine what tags to use in
describing the guest house as an AirBnB venue. The issue of legality hadn't
really occurred to me.

If it turns out that such places are legitimate to tag, how should I
indicate that they are "administered" through AirBnB? The AirBnB connection
isn't a franchise in the usual sense, nor does AirBnB "operate" those
venues. AirBnB takes a percentage of the rent from the owner when the
reservation is made through the AirBnB website but AFAIK the owner is also
free to rent the place separately.

I think I will defer adding any of them until the issue of legality is
resolved. I will also talk to some hosts and look at the AirBnB terms of
agreement to get a better feel for the type of contract involved in the
arrangement between the parties.

On Sat, Mar 19, 2016 at 7:30 PM, Andy Townsend  wrote:

> On 19/03/2016 04:41, Dave Swarthout wrote:
>
>> I'm looking for a consistent way to tag AirBnB locations. It's probably
>> sufficient to tag them as tourism=guest_house but personally as one who
>> frequently uses AirBnB
>>
>
> It'll depend on the individual location, won't it?  Some I'm sure will be
> essentially normal guest houses who just happen to do most or all of their
> business via AirBnB; some will be occasionally-let rooms in private houses
> that most certainly aren't.  Presumably the usual OSM guidelines apply -
> when you visit a place you decide how best to categorise it?
>
> Cheers,
> Andy
>
>
>
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-- 
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Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] AirBnB

[Andy Townsend]

On 19/03/2016 04:41, Dave Swarthout wrote:
I'm looking for a consistent way to tag AirBnB locations. It's 
probably sufficient to tag them as tourism=guest_house but personally 
as one who frequently uses AirBnB


It'll depend on the individual location, won't it?  Some I'm sure will 
be essentially normal guest houses who just happen to do most or all of 
their business via AirBnB; some will be occasionally-let rooms in 
private houses that most certainly aren't.  Presumably the usual OSM 
guidelines apply - when you visit a place you decide how best to 
categorise it?


Cheers,
Andy


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Re: [Tagging] AirBnB

[Jean-Marc Liotier]

On 03/19/2016 05:41 AM, Dave Swarthout wrote:
I'm looking for a consistent way to tag AirBnB locations. It's 
probably sufficient to tag them as tourism=guest_house


tourism=guest_house
guest_house=clandestine

Beside all the arguments previously expressed here, many owners use 
AirBnB as undeclared income and the last thing they want is fiscal 
authorities noticing that their property is a guest house.



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Re: [Tagging] AirBnB

[Mateusz Konieczny]

On Sat, 19 Mar 2016 00:38:05 -0500
"Shawn K. Quinn"  wrote:

> On Sat, 2016-03-19 at 11:41 +0700, Dave Swarthout wrote:
> > I'm looking for a consistent way to tag AirBnB locations.
> 
> The only authoritative source for the houses currently offered on
> Airbnb is Airbnb itself.

That is untrue. For cases where signs are placed by owner it is fairly
easy to find such locations during survey.

For cases where owner put no signs of any kind I would respect
this decision and do no map such location (it applies to regions where
putting signs is typically done by owners of guest houses or similar
objects).

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Re: [Tagging] AirBnB

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 19.03.2016 um 07:07 schrieb Dave Swarthout :
> 
> The fact that they are advertised, on AirBnB and locally on signs, seems to 
> imply that the data is available for public consumption. But maybe including 
> them in OSM is, as you suggest,illegal


I also assume that copying systematically urls from airbnb is likely forbidden 
(EU db directive and ToS), but if there's a business you know of (e.g. through 
local signs), you can add them (I wouldn't put the ref to airbnb), also with 
email, phone etc.

The same holds true for similar sites like booking.com etc.

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] AirBnB

[Mateusz Konieczny]

On Sat, 19 Mar 2016 00:38:05 -0500
"Shawn K. Quinn"  wrote:

> On Sat, 2016-03-19 at 11:41 +0700, Dave Swarthout wrote:
> > I'm looking for a consistent way to tag AirBnB locations.
> 
> The only authoritative source for the houses currently offered on
> Airbnb is Airbnb itself. There is a reason Airbnb does not show exact
> address or even exact locations on the map.
> 
> This data absolutely, positively, does not belong in OpenStreetMap, as
> there would be no end of ethical, moral, and possibly legal problems
> from doing so. If you've added any of these already, I'd recommend
> quickly reverting the changes.
> 

At least some AirBnB locations are de facto hotels (with all legal &
practical complications). I see absolutely no problem with mapping such
locations (I am not sure how as I never encountered such locations - I
am unsure how exactly "we are hotel but for legal purposes we are
pretending to not be" is done).

Also, I see absolutely no problem with marking privately operated guest
houses or houses where some rooms are reserved for rent for tourists.
For example in Poland it is typical for people in tourism areas
(mountains, seashore, etc) to rent rooms during holidays.

In many cases houses are explicitly constructed to make renting some
rooms easy and in many areas all/nearly all/most of holiday lodgings
is of this type.

I tagged locations like this and I see no ethical, moral and legal
problems with that practise.

The Airbnb case does seem to be similar, though it is possible that data
may get outdated quicker.

Though it may be useful to establish subtag for guest house for
cases where one building contains both permanent residence and rooms for
short-term renting.

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Re: [Tagging] AirBnB

[Mateusz Konieczny]

On Fri, 18 Mar 2016 22:32:17 -0700
Indy Hurt  wrote:

> Since AirBnBs are primarily private homes, it doesn't seem
> appropriate to add them to OpenStreetMap.

I see no problem with mapping ones functioning as guest houses or a de
facto hotel using AirBnB for practical/legal reasons. Mapping ones
rented once a year seems like a bad idea.

> violation of AirBnB's terms of service to take data from their
> website and host it on another's (OpenStreetMap in this case)

Direct copying would also violate rules of OSM (unless this data is
available on suitable license). It was also mentioned that this data is
highly inaccurate.

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Re: [Tagging] AirBnB

[Dave Swarthout]

Interesting responses. The location and name of the venue I linked to was
taken from a survey of my area today so the only info I got from the
official AirBnB site is the url of the particular property. I ride around
on a bicycle or motorcycle and add data that is of interest to me and I had
seen the signs for this venue before but today I happened upon it and
thought its exact location would be of value to data consumers like myself.
I have a two AirBnB places reserved in Iceland and Amsterdam this May and
I'm wondering how I'll go about finding them without my trusty GPS to guide
me.

Shawn, I agree that AirBnB properties are privately owned but the same is
true of most hotels and guest houses worldwide. The fact that they are
advertised, on AirBnB and locally on signs, seems to imply that the data is
available for public consumption. But maybe including them in OSM is, as
you suggest,illegal. I'll wait to see what others have to say. I've only
tagged this one place at the moment.

Dave

On Sat, Mar 19, 2016 at 12:38 PM, Shawn K. Quinn 
wrote:

> On Sat, 2016-03-19 at 11:41 +0700, Dave Swarthout wrote:
> > I'm looking for a consistent way to tag AirBnB locations.
>
> The only authoritative source for the houses currently offered on Airbnb
> is Airbnb itself. There is a reason Airbnb does not show exact address
> or even exact locations on the map.
>
> This data absolutely, positively, does not belong in OpenStreetMap, as
> there would be no end of ethical, moral, and possibly legal problems
> from doing so. If you've added any of these already, I'd recommend
> quickly reverting the changes.
>
> --
> Shawn K. Quinn 
>
>
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-- 
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Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] AirBnB

[Shawn K. Quinn]

On Sat, 2016-03-19 at 11:41 +0700, Dave Swarthout wrote:
> I'm looking for a consistent way to tag AirBnB locations.

The only authoritative source for the houses currently offered on Airbnb
is Airbnb itself. There is a reason Airbnb does not show exact address
or even exact locations on the map.

This data absolutely, positively, does not belong in OpenStreetMap, as
there would be no end of ethical, moral, and possibly legal problems
from doing so. If you've added any of these already, I'd recommend
quickly reverting the changes.

-- 
Shawn K. Quinn 


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Re: [Tagging] AirBnB

[Indy Hurt]

Since AirBnBs are primarily private homes, it doesn't seem appropriate to
add them to OpenStreetMap.  Additionally, it may be a violation of AirBnB's
terms of service to take data from their website and host it on another's
(OpenStreetMap in this case).  Last but definitely not least, if a host
decides to stop making their property available through AirBnB, they may or
may not know that their home address is still being prominently featured on
OpenStreetMap as a guest house.

I'm curious to see what others have to say about this.

(Dave, that listing you linked looks awesome - wish I was there now!)

-IndyMapper

Indy
https://about.me/indyhurt

On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 9:41 PM, Dave Swarthout 
wrote:

> I'm looking for a consistent way to tag AirBnB locations. It's probably
> sufficient to tag them as tourism=guest_house but personally as one who
> frequently uses AirBnB, I would like to be able to locate them more
> precisely than is possible using the maps on their website, which are not
> very exact. The locations can be off by several city blocks and when one is
> pulling a big roller bag along behind it would be nice be able to walk
> directly to the correct location.
>
> In searching Taginfo, I saw only a few instances of the word "AirBnB" and
> most of those were tagged as operator=AirBnB. As I understand it, the
> operators are the owners of the property whereas AirBnB is a corporation
> that contracts with those owners in some sort of a franchise arrangement.
>
> Another common tag containing the term "AirBnB" is the website URL that
> points to the specific property. The one I'm working on at the moment is
> near where I live and is quite a nice venue:
>
> https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/6020019
>
> Suggestions?
>
> --
> Dave Swarthout
> Homer, Alaska
> Chiang Mai, Thailand
> Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
>
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>
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