Re: [Tagging] Cycling "service area"

[John Willis]

TL;DR - highway=wayside_station  ? 
  

~~~ 

> On Feb 19, 2018, at 12:40 AM, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
> 
> At present the wiki says that highway=services is mainly for motorways and 
> similar roads, but we have many places now that look like highway=services, 
> but are on single carriageway roads and offer similar  services, but are 
> tagged as amenity=fuel.
> 


Japan has these too, growing from the “Road Station” idea. there are over 1000 
registered road stations. many of them are on heavily trafficked trunk roads, 
so in urban areas, it is probably a massive 40m wide road, but they are also 
found on narrow single carriageway roads high in the mountains, for people 
coming to or going through the mountains to popular destinations. 

All of them are registered with the government, which I bring up not to 
validate them - but one of the requirements to me of a “Service Area” - a 
singularly named place that says “I am a Service Area”. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roadside_station 

https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%81%93%E3%81%AE%E9%A7%85 



The Japanese road Stations are all called “Michi-no-eki”  literally a "station 
of the road". often written as “Michi-no-eki Foobar” or "Road Station Foobar” 
in english.  People know that it is a place to stop. While they may not have 
gasoline (trunk roads have gasoline stands along the road), they basically 
offer the other amenities of a service area in a singularly named location. 

the creator of the english wikipedia page says Japan “officially” translates 
them as “roadside stations"

We got into (well, I got into) a long discussion about how to tag road_stations 
last year, with:

Tomoya saying they are simply named landuse=retail, since they usually do not 
offer gasoline, making them ineligible to be highway=services.
I said they need their own subtag, highway=services & services=road_station, as 
they are a variant to me. 
Paul saying highway=services retail=road_station might work. 

I quoted the entire last email at the end. 




Perhaps  we should make highway=wayside_station to cover all of the 
transportation methods. this would avoid the trouble with ‘Service_area” 
confusion. you can apply it to a landuse=retail or whatever environment your 
wayside_station happens to be.  

his would also give a proper tag to non-motorway stops that fit into the same 
traveller focused area that is way adjacent, using landuse=retail to show it’s 
operating many shops under a single POI, with separate communal public 
restrooms and eating area (shelter) denoted by the highway=wayside_station 
aspect. 


This “communal amenity use” distinction is present in other tags - a road lined 
with individual shops is different than a mall, an amusement park is a 
collection of attractions.  It is a distinction I don’t want to overlook when 
tagging these kind of places. 


Javbw 


Quoted email From Paul, Jan 27th 2017

Re: [Tagging] highway=services & "Road Stations" - subtag requested.

> On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 7:34 PM, John Willis  > wrote:
>> 
>>> On Jan 26, 2017, at 12:45 AM, Paul Johnson >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>>  Usually just a vending machine in a cage and some overused, 
>>> under-maintained toilets and lots of parking.
>> 
>> 
>> yea, i’m more familiar with the view points (Interstate 5 near camp 
>> Pendleton) and that style of crap rest area near Castaic lake. Maybe the map 
>> stop on interstate 8 as you come into san diego. I have driven 300,000 miles 
>> in California, and those are the 3 I can name.  they are usually barren 
>> dirty places you stop at only if you have to.
> 
> I wouldn't say that's typical of CalTrans rest areas to be that horrible.  
> Randolph Collier 
> 
>  seems like it may have been a small state park with campground at one point, 
> it's quite nice.  Solano Westbound 
> 
>  is a little bit of a dirty trick, though.  If you're in the middle of a 
> transcontinental drive and heavily loaded, you're going to have to stop there 
> because you probably need to let the engine cool off a bit after the long 
> climb up from the California Valley to the east; good taco truck, 
> understandably rekt restrooms, in no small part of being in the middle of the 
> suburbs of an unbelievably spread out metropolis.  You can see all the way to 
> the Pacific Ocean from there, so worth stopping if you haven't made the trip, 
> even if you don't need the restroom.  Westley 
> 
>  is also a good one.
> 
> Castaic sucks.  I don't know what is with the maintenance at that one, but 
> it's uncharacteristically bad for CalTrans 

Re: [Tagging] Cycling "service area"

[Volker Schmidt]

The common use of "bicycle=designated" is the equivalent of ( "bicycle=yes"
plus some kind of official vertical sign)
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Cycling "service area"

[Paul Johnson]

On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 12:53 PM, Volker Schmidt  wrote:

> Access tags are something different. You may well have a place were you
> can drive to with your car, but the service is only for bicycles
>

motorcar=yes, bicycle=designated.
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Cycling "service area"

[Volker Schmidt]

Access tags are something different. You may well have a place were you can
drive to with your car, but the service is only for bicycles

On 18 February 2018 at 19:49, Paul Johnson  wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, Feb 17, 2018 at 7:44 AM, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
>
>> I would prefer a tag structure of the type
>> highway=service _area (or highway=services ?)
>> vehicle_type=bicycle; motorcycle; car; agricultural; hgv; motor_vehicle
>> (with default vehicle_type=motor_vehicle?)
>> attendant=yes|no
>>
>> I have come across a number of (manned) service places where different
>> vehicles are attended to, including bicycles.
>>
>
> I think I like this even more.  Keep it more universal.  Though
> vehicle_type=* is kind of odd when we can use existing access tagging for
> that (motor_vehicle=no, bicycle=yes comes to mind for the case of a bicycle
> service plaza).
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Cycling "service area"

[Paul Johnson]

On Sat, Feb 17, 2018 at 7:44 AM, Volker Schmidt  wrote:

> I would prefer a tag structure of the type
> highway=service _area (or highway=services ?)
> vehicle_type=bicycle; motorcycle; car; agricultural; hgv; motor_vehicle
> (with default vehicle_type=motor_vehicle?)
> attendant=yes|no
>
> I have come across a number of (manned) service places where different
> vehicles are attended to, including bicycles.
>

I think I like this even more.  Keep it more universal.  Though
vehicle_type=* is kind of odd when we can use existing access tagging for
that (motor_vehicle=no, bicycle=yes comes to mind for the case of a bicycle
service plaza).
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Cycling "service area"

[Paul Johnson]

On Sat, Feb 17, 2018 at 4:52 AM, nwastra  wrote:

> I also find the highway=cycle_service_area tag is both useful and
> specific enough to be a widely used tag if documented on the osm cycling
> pages.
>

Indeed, it's something I would use if properly documented; we call them
plaza zones in Tulsa, but the concept is identical (restrooms, shade,
water, and picnic facilities at a minimum, sometimes vending for snacks and
spare parts/tools, a bicycle repair stand, shower, car parking and/or bus
stop for transloading to a different mode, playground or an outdoor gym...).
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Cycling "service area"

[marc marc]

Hello,

Le 18. 02. 18 à 16:16, John Willis a écrit :
>> On Feb 18, 2018, at 10:44 PM, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
>> what's the difference between a service area on a road that is tagged with 
>> highway=services and one that is tagged amenity=fuel
> 
> highway=services (SA) is a singularly named place with a collection of 
> specific amenities with dedicated access along a motorway. Fuel is one of 
> those amenities.

I find both the key and the value used problematic.
The value because it is so close to service that there is a great risk 
of not seeing the difference between the 2 for those who fill in the 
fields by hand.
for the key because an area providing services would be better described 
with a amenity or leisure key. if I understand well, highway=services is 
not a highway. although there are many historic values of highway=* that 
are not a highway, I will take advantage of this opportunity to avoid 
creating/tune new highway=* and organize it in a more coherent way.

Regards,
Marc
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Cycling "service area"

[Volker Schmidt]

At present the wiki says that highway=services is mainly for motorways and
similar roads, but we have many places now that look like highway=services,
but are on single carriageway roads and offer similar  services, but are
tagged as amenity=fuel.
I am only pointing out that the dividing line between the different tagging
approaches is blurry, and invite you to consider extending the meaning of
the highway=services key instead of creating a new service_area tag that
would apply everywhere bar motorways and other dual-carriageway roads, and
would "compete" with amenity=fuel.


On 18 February 2018 at 16:16, John Willis  wrote:

>
>
> Javbw
>
> > On Feb 18, 2018, at 10:44 PM, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
> >
> > what's the difference between a service area on a road that is tagged
> with highway=services and one that is tagged amenity=fuel
>
> I'll write a full response tomorrow, but highway=services (SA) is a
> singularly named place with a collection of specific amenities with
> dedicated access along a motorway. Fuel is one of those amenities. It is
> important to defining a SA, but it is not an SA itself.
>
> Similar to how a mall is a singularly named location full of shops and
> amenities for shoppers, it is the collection of amenities  together for a
> particular usage in a singularly named location that makes a Service Area,
> along with specialized access.
>
> javbw.
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Cycling "service area"

[John Willis]

Javbw

> On Feb 18, 2018, at 10:44 PM, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
> 
> what's the difference between a service area on a road that is tagged with 
> highway=services and one that is tagged amenity=fuel

I'll write a full response tomorrow, but highway=services (SA) is a singularly 
named place with a collection of specific amenities with dedicated access along 
a motorway. Fuel is one of those amenities. It is important to defining a SA, 
but it is not an SA itself. 

Similar to how a mall is a singularly named location full of shops and 
amenities for shoppers, it is the collection of amenities  together for a 
particular usage in a singularly named location that makes a Service Area, 
along with specialized access. 

javbw. 
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Cycling "service area"

[Volker Schmidt]

Taking a step back:
what's the difference between a service area on a road that is tagged with
highway=services and one that is tagged amenity=fuel (with the
corresponding additional tagging for food, ATM, ... ?
Is the difference only the number of carriageways? single carriageway >
amenity=fuel; dual carriageway > highway=services?
And let's look at this: https://witoor.com/bicigrill/ (not yet on the map)
This is on a long-distance foot-cycle route: it has a service station to
repair your bike, same spare parts, it has seating area (to eat your own
food), a restaurant, toilets, maybe showers (I don't  know). It may have a
charging facility for e-bikes (don't know), a facility that I am sure, will
be more widespread in the future.
This place is to all effects highway=services for bicycles (and hikers).
Yes, there are most likely also equivalent facilities for boats.
And I am sure that there are places for several categories at the same time.
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Cycling "service area"

[John Willis]

Javbw

> On Feb 18, 2018, at 10:11 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> service _area:hgv=yes

Isn't a highway=services already for HGV ? 

The issue I ran into is highway=services that are not on a motorway (a Japanese 
road station) - but how does a facility "cater to" HGV and cyclists at the same 
time? I know I can get rest and food at a highway=services  along a trunk road, 
but it is a place not tailored to cyclists. The Cycle_service_area that led me 
to think of this tag doesn't even have a single designated car parking spot! 

The other issue is that highway=service_area already has an automatic redirect 
page to highway=services on the wiki. Creating this tag value is probably a bad 
idea. 

Considering motor_vehecles have highway=services, creating 3 tags: 
cycle_service_area, foot_service_area and bridle_service_area would match the 
three types of current non-motor ways.

I am unsure that is is the best idea, but the idea of matching the existing 
_path types seems proper. 

Javbw. 
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Cycling "service area"

[John Willis]

Thanks for all the comments everyone. 

Javbw

> On Feb 18, 2018, at 5:43 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> highway=service _area
> service _area=bicycle, hgv, horse,  etc 

Warin's suggestion is probably best, that way the wheel doesn't have to be 
reinvented for each type, service_area can just get another subtag value. 

If we were starting from scratch, I would use highway=services and then 
services=foobar to define type. 

But highway=services is explicitly for motorway service areas now; I think 
trying to extend that tag will just lead to confusion. 

I think hgv is already covered by motorway=services. Am I wrong? 



Please reply back to tell me specific services offered for a type (beyond 
food/shelter/toilets) That are at facilities which are: 

Self-identified, way-adjacent, type-specific facilities offering specific and 
general amenities to that type of transient traveller (kayak? Cycle? Horse? 
Hiker?) That isn't a park, sports complex, convenience store, or a retail shop.


- self-identify as service_area for a specific type. There may they be a nice 
convenience store along the route with a bike pump and a parking rack - but it 
is just a 7/11. 

- Must not be confused with a facility dedicated to that activity - an 
equestrian center, a MBX off-road park, etc. Service_area is a facility for 
transient visitors, just passing through.  

- Must be a facility along a dedicated route (bridlepath for horses, for 
example) or busy area for the specific type.  This is not a shop in a mall. 

- Must offer amenities specific to the type (bicycle maintaince, watering spot 
for horses). Additional non-specific amenities are usually present as well 
(food, shelter, toilets), that could be used by anyone visiting there, but that 
is not a defining feature. A park could have a picnic shelter, a toilet, a 
cycle rack and a vending machine. It is a park. 

- Must be more than a souvioir shop / [type] rental / torestaurant/ [type] 
shop/ or a convenience store with parking. It may have a restaurant or such, 
but the pesence of such does not define it as a service_area. 



With feedback, I can include some common types in the draft page and use some 
amenities offered as defining features, and present what existing tags go with 
such a facility. 

Javbw. 



___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Cycling "service area"

[Volker Schmidt]

highway=service_area
> service _area=bicycle, hgv, horse,
>
> As I said, I think we need multiple value possibility for this, hence
semicolon separator
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Cycling "service area"

[Warin]

No 'type' ! 'Type' says nothing so why say it.

Suggestion?
highway=service _area
service _area=bicycle, hgv, horse,  etc



On 18-Feb-18 05:31 AM, Thilo Haug OSM wrote:


Hi Volker,

the way I understand the current syntax,
underscore is more for spaces (in terms)
and colon for namespaces (to separate the "subcategory").

So I'd use vehicle:type=* rather than vehicle_type=*
(leaves room for vehicle:anythingelse=*)
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Namespace

Cheers,
Thilo


Am 17.02.2018 um 14:44 schrieb Volker Schmidt:

I would prefer a tag structure of the type
highway=service _area (or highway=services ?)
vehicle_type=bicycle; motorcycle; car; agricultural; hgv; 
motor_vehicle (with default vehicle_type=motor_vehicle?)

attendant=yes|no

I have come across a number of (manned) service places where 
different vehicles are attended to, including bicycles.


On 17 February 2018 at 11:52, nwastra > wrote:


I also find the highway=cycle_service_area tag is both useful and
specific enough to be a widely used tag if documented on the osm
cycling pages.
nev


On 17 Feb 2018, at 8:40 PM, John Willis > wrote:



Javbw

On Feb 15, 2018, at 11:54 AM, Dave Swarthout
> wrote:


think the highway=cycle_service_area tag is both useful and
specific enough.


I will make a draft page for it and start using it for the very
rare places here. I assume the rest area in the OSM question
thread is a sun protection or picnic shelter with name=Cycle
Rest Area.

Javbw


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org 
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging




___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org 
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging





___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging



___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging



___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Cycling "service area"

[Thilo Haug OSM]

Hi Volker,

the way I understand the current syntax,
underscore is more for spaces (in terms)
and colon for namespaces (to separate the "subcategory").

So I'd use vehicle:type=* rather than vehicle_type=*
(leaves room for vehicle:anythingelse=*)
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Namespace

Cheers,
Thilo


Am 17.02.2018 um 14:44 schrieb Volker Schmidt:
> I would prefer a tag structure of the type
> highway=service _area (or highway=services ?)
> vehicle_type=bicycle; motorcycle; car; agricultural; hgv;
> motor_vehicle (with default vehicle_type=motor_vehicle?)
> attendant=yes|no
>
> I have come across a number of (manned) service places where different
> vehicles are attended to, including bicycles.
>
> On 17 February 2018 at 11:52, nwastra  > wrote:
>
> I also find the highway=cycle_service_area tag is both useful and
> specific enough to be a widely used tag if documented on the osm
> cycling pages.
> nev
>  
>> On 17 Feb 2018, at 8:40 PM, John Willis > > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Javbw
>>
>> On Feb 15, 2018, at 11:54 AM, Dave Swarthout
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> think the highway=cycle_service_area tag is both useful and
>>> specific enough.
>>
>> I will make a draft page for it and start using it for the very
>> rare places here. I assume the rest area in the OSM question
>> thread is a sun protection or picnic shelter with name=Cycle Rest
>> Area. 
>>
>> Javbw 
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org 
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>> 
>
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org 
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> 
>
>
>
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Cycling "service area"

[Volker Schmidt]

I would prefer a tag structure of the type
highway=service _area (or highway=services ?)
vehicle_type=bicycle; motorcycle; car; agricultural; hgv; motor_vehicle
(with default vehicle_type=motor_vehicle?)
attendant=yes|no

I have come across a number of (manned) service places where different
vehicles are attended to, including bicycles.

On 17 February 2018 at 11:52, nwastra  wrote:

> I also find the highway=cycle_service_area tag is both useful and
> specific enough to be a widely used tag if documented on the osm cycling
> pages.
> nev
>
>
> On 17 Feb 2018, at 8:40 PM, John Willis  wrote:
>
>
>
> Javbw
>
> On Feb 15, 2018, at 11:54 AM, Dave Swarthout 
> wrote:
>
> think the highway=cycle_service_area tag is both useful and specific
> enough.
>
>
> I will make a draft page for it and start using it for the very rare
> places here. I assume the rest area in the OSM question thread is a sun
> protection or picnic shelter with name=Cycle Rest Area.
>
> Javbw
>
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Cycling "service area"

[John Willis]

Javbw

> On Feb 15, 2018, at 11:54 AM, Dave Swarthout  wrote:
> 
> think the highway=cycle_service_area tag is both useful and specific enough.

I will make a draft page for it and start using it for the very rare places 
here. I assume the rest area in the OSM question thread is a sun protection or 
picnic shelter with name=Cycle Rest Area. 

Javbw 


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Cycling "service area"

[Dave Swarthout]

I think the highway=cycle_service_area tag is both useful and specific
enough. By the way, the highway=services tag is used to identify an area
(we call them 'service areas" on the east coast) that has fuel, restrooms,
water, food and parking for automobiles and trucks. I also use area=yes in
conjunction with that tag to insure it is rendered as an area. I read that
somewhere but now cannot find any reference to it in the Wiki
description of highway=services. (??)

But that's beside the point. I like the tag you suggested.

Dave

On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 6:54 AM, John Willis  wrote:

> I have come across an interesting mappable feature when out cycling last
> weekend.
>
> The ~60 km long cycling roads along the Rivers here in Japan occasionally
> have city operated facilities, and similar to the centuries old “road
> stations” and the more recent motorway “Service areas”, I found a “Cycle
> Center”, best described at a cycling service area. Someone has mapped it as
> a building.
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/184976184
>
> the Japanese phrase サイクリングセンター “Cycle Center” is used for these buildings.
> this is a play off of the “road station” name, but tagging as
> highway=cycle_service_area seems proper. This is where an east-west and
> north-south cycling route cross, and the cycle center is a public facility.
> It has public toilets, cycle parking, outdoor sinks, air pumps, small
> information office, a room for getting out of the weather and sitting and
> eating lunch, showers, a few vending machines, a nurse’s first aid room,
>  and a (seasonal) cycle rental service.
>
> this sounds a lot like a motorway Service Area to me.
>
> I know the features are mappable by themselves, and that this kind of
> purpose-built facility is rare, but they seem to exist. The feature is a
> named and singular mappable object with multiple amenities offered.
>
> someone else asked this question through OSM questions.
>
> https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/56838/bicycle-
> rest-area-how-do-i-map-it
>
> his “rest area” is a picnic shelter. There are no real amenities offered
> there beyond the shade and a bench. I am not talking about a bicycle
> parking spot with a drinking fountain. This is why I think
> “bicycle_rest_area” should be avoided - as service area implies there are
> actual “services" to the cyclist.
>
> This is a purpose-built facility along the route, catering to the
> travellers and their vehicles along this route, similar to a
> British/Japanese Parking Area/Service area.
>
> Saitama Prefecture (near Tokyo) operates two of these “Cycle Centers”,
> with images viewable here.
> http://www.pref.saitama.lg.jp/a1105/910-20091204-109.html#kihon
> Additional searches lead to other prefectures operating 1 or 2, so I
> assume there are about 20 in Japan, when you filter out all the cycle shops
> using “cycle center” in the name.
> I think we should have some way of tagging a cycle center that isn’t a
> bike shop or a Park, even though it is rare.
>
>
> Javbw
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>


-- 
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging