Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - traffic jam warning
2010/5/31 Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com: IMHO, if there is not signage or some sort of official designation to back it up, this kind of subjective, user-supplied information belongs somewhere other than the OSM database. It's certainly valuable, if it is, I believe we should also put it into our data. but it should be stored in some sort of layer elsewhere, that can be combined with OSM data upon request. can you explain how linking of 2 databases can be achieved in a consistent and permanent way without having the data in OSM? cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - traffic jam warning
On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 6:31 PM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: can you explain how linking of 2 databases can be achieved in a consistent and permanent way without having the data in OSM? By permanent you presumably mean stable. Nodes and ways have IDs, so it doesn't seem like a difficult problem to me. Also, in this particular instance, a traffic jam might not really apply to a specific way, but could be a whole new area, so it could simply be an unconnected geographical area over the top. Steve ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - traffic jam warning
2010/5/31 Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com: By permanent you presumably mean stable. Nodes and ways have IDs, so it doesn't seem like a difficult problem to me. if you're talking about static (OSM-)data this is indeed simple, otherwise it requires quite some effort: nodes are deleted, moved, etc., and this much more if the (elsewhere) attached data is not visible in the OSM-Editor. Also, in this particular instance, a traffic jam might not really apply to a specific way, but could be a whole new area, so it could simply be an unconnected geographical area over the top. If it does apply to a specific way (and direction!, which is quite often the case especially for dual carriage ways = high traffic), slightly moving the way's position might completely change the jamming indication (e.g. from inbound to outbound traffic). I believe this information is either valueable, then it should (could) be in our database, or it is not and then I don't care if it breaks somewhere else then OSM. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - traffic jam warning
On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 10:31 AM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: It's certainly valuable, if it is, I believe we should also put it into our data. The average of sunny and raining days is also valuable. Does it mean it has to go into the osm database ? can you explain how linking of 2 databases can be achieved in a consistent and permanent way without having the data in OSM? Are you saying that all projects/applications using OSM data should store their own data into the same database because it's not easy to link features by positions ? It's currently possible. It's maybe a challenge for API0.7 to make it easier but it's not a reason to accept everything, especially data changing daily. Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - traffic jam warning
2010/5/31 Pieren pier...@gmail.com: ...but it's not a reason to accept everything, especially data changing daily. yes, I totally agree that highly dynamic data like actual traffic jams are not to be put into OSM database, but here the suggestion was to put information about typical locations with frequent traffic jams and this might IMHO be OK to be inserted. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - traffic jam warning
I agree that tagging an area as prone to frequent traffic jams is reasonable. Admittedly, this isn't easily verified by someone outside the area, but it is easily verified by going to the place in question at the appropriate time. --Original Message-- From: M∡rtin Koppenhoefer Sender: tagging-boun...@openstreetmap.org To: OpenStreetMap tagging mailing list ReplyTo: m...@koppenhoefer.com ReplyTo: OpenStreetMap tagging mailing list Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - traffic jam warning Sent: May 31, 2010 9:58 AM 2010/5/31 Pieren pier...@gmail.com: ...but it's not a reason to accept everything, especially data changing daily. yes, I totally agree that highly dynamic data like actual traffic jams are not to be put into OSM database, but here the suggestion was to put information about typical locations with frequent traffic jams and this might IMHO be OK to be inserted. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - traffic jam warning
On Fri, May 28, 2010 at 8:07 PM, Martin Bober mar...@bdd-music.de wrote: Hi folks, I have filled in a proposal for a tag indicating a high risk of traffic jams and would like to hear your comments. Summary: This tag marks roads or intersections with a high risk of traffic jams. This does not indicate an existing jam, only the chance for a jam. IMHO, if there is not signage or some sort of official designation to back it up, this kind of subjective, user-supplied information belongs somewhere other than the OSM database. It's certainly valuable, but it should be stored in some sort of layer elsewhere, that can be combined with OSM data upon request. Steve ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - traffic jam warning
On 5/29/10, Martin Bober mar...@bdd-music.de wrote: jam=yes is not allways impossible to verify. There actually are some permanently installed warning signs here in Germany. Although I have to admit that most of these signs are temporary (for example due to construction works - in which case they might also be valuable for the map) or on demand (on motorways - activated by traffic flow sensors). such signs are quite common here in italy, and they are usually permanent (except on motorways, where they are on demand) usually they are placed on roads where one can expect a just behind a blind turn, so they wouldn't cover all of the traffic prone areas, however -- Elena ``of Valhalla'' homepage: http://www.trueelena.org email: elena.valha...@gmail.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - traffic jam warning
On Sat, May 29, 2010 at 3:40 PM, Ulf Lamping ulf.lamp...@googlemail.com wrote: Would be nice if someone comes up with a way to make this tag more verifiable, but if there's no better way to get this information into the database, than unverifiable info is still better than no info at all. Agreed. One way to make it more verifiable is to avoid using a broad, complex description (e.g. if A or B and usually C...) for a single tag (jam=yes). Instead, as I suggested before, clarify what you mean in the tag itself, e.g. traffic_jam:expected:daily=yes, or traffic_jam:warning_sign=yes, or traffic_jam:average_delay=10min. As a mapper I would find those tags MUCH easier to read and easier to verify than jam=yes. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - traffic jam warning
On Fri, May 28, 2010 at 8:07 PM, Martin Bober mar...@bdd-music.de wrote: Hi folks, I have filled in a proposal for a tag indicating a high risk of traffic jams and would like to hear your comments. Nicely put together proposal with examples - good work. BUT jam=yes is not verifiable. Anything entered in OSM should be able to be demonstrated as correct or incorrect. That an intersection has a high risk of traffic jams is not verifiable IMHO. For more info: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Verifiability ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - traffic jam warning
jam=yes is not allways impossible to verify. There actually are some permanently installed warning signs here in Germany. Although I have to admit that most of these signs are temporary (for example due to construction works - in which case they might also be valuable for the map) or on demand (on motorways - activated by traffic flow sensors). I think the benefit that this tag would give to the users is worth problems the mappers might have verifying. Besides, it would not be the only tag that is hard to verify. For example, there is no clear classification of highway=primary/secondary/tertiary in the German mapping community. This classification depends on the size of the city and other factors. I gave a rough definition of a traffic jam in the proposal as a giudline for verification: Generally, a road may be considered jammed if you have to wait for several traffic signal periods to cross an intersection or if you need more time to travel through the tagged section than a pedestrian would need. I might add that you have to expect these jams on a daily basis to qualify for this tag. Am Freitag, 28. Mai 2010, 23:53:20 schrieb Roy Wallace: On Fri, May 28, 2010 at 8:07 PM, Martin Bober mar...@bdd-music.de wrote: Hi folks, I have filled in a proposal for a tag indicating a high risk of traffic jams and would like to hear your comments. Nicely put together proposal with examples - good work. BUT jam=yes is not verifiable. Anything entered in OSM should be able to be demonstrated as correct or incorrect. That an intersection has a high risk of traffic jams is not verifiable IMHO. For more info: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Verifiability ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - traffic jam warning
On Sat, May 29, 2010 at 8:42 AM, Martin Bober mar...@bdd-music.de wrote: jam=yes is not allways impossible to verify. I guess it's arguable. If this does go ahead, I'd at least suggest a more descriptive tag, like traffic_jam:expected:daily=yes, or traffic_jam:warning_sign=yes. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - traffic jam warning
On Saturday 29 May 2010 00:42:14 Martin Bober wrote: I might add that you have to expect these jams on a daily basis to qualify for this tag. I would rather say on most normal workdays in stead of daily. -- m.v.g., Cartinus ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - traffic jam warning
True. Most traffic jams are at rush hour, although special events such as concerts tend to produce them also. I know of a few locations near my home that have traffic jams all day, every day, because of geographical features that cause congestion. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria -Original Message- From: Cartinus carti...@xs4all.nl Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 02:13:46 To: tagging@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - traffic jam warning On Saturday 29 May 2010 00:42:14 Martin Bober wrote: I might add that you have to expect these jams on a daily basis to qualify for this tag. I would rather say on most normal workdays in stead of daily. -- m.v.g., Cartinus ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - traffic jam warning
On 29 May 2010 12:10, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: True. Most traffic jams are at rush hour, although special events such as concerts tend to produce them also. I know of a few locations near my home that have traffic jams all day, every day, because of geographical features that cause congestion. Not that it's a jam, but they also have road closures in places during special events around here, usually public holidays. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
