Re: [Tagging] ID is not a king and final arbiter of OSM

2019-05-23 Thread Dave F via Tagging 

If they'd wanted to do that the github thread wouldn't have been locked.

He's never been good at taking criticism.

He confesses *all* responses will be critical, but still thinks he's right.

DaveF

On 23/05/2019 18:26, Jmapb wrote:

On 5/23/2019 12:32 PM, Tobias Zwick wrote:
Undoubtedly, the developers behavior is not helping there. I have the 
impression that they have almost given up on the OSM community. But 
this doesn't come out of nowhere.  I think it is important to 
understand their side of the story if we were to reverse this 
development.


Would anyone care to summarize the developers' side of the story? Maybe,
I dunno, one of the iD developers?

J

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging



___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] ID is not a king and final arbiter of OSM

2019-05-23 Thread Jmapb 

On 5/23/2019 12:32 PM, Tobias Zwick wrote:

Undoubtedly, the developers behavior is not helping there. I have the 
impression that they have almost given up on the OSM community. But this 
doesn't come out of nowhere.  I think it is important to understand their side 
of the story if we were to reverse this development.


Would anyone care to summarize the developers' side of the story? Maybe,
I dunno, one of the iD developers?

J

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] ID is not a king and final arbiter of OSM

2019-05-23 Thread marc marc 
Le 23.05.19 à 18:32, Tobias Zwick a écrit :
> what would it take to reverse this?

what may help in to keep some thread here on topic and make a summary at 
the end of a long thread... or maybe always made a summary like
subject : [solved] previous subject
a short summary

I am even someone who writes messages that are too long. so I understand 
that not everyone necessarily wants or has the time to read the hundreds 
of messages on some topics spread over several months

the last problem is that some dev (but also some users of a publisher) 
have to accept that sometimes discussing a problem will not be done in a 
few hours.
a community project does not have the same tempo as managing a bug by 
deciding on its own
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] ID is not a king and final arbiter of OSM (was: iD adding highway=footway to all railway/public_transport=platform ways and relations)

2019-05-23 Thread Tobias Zwick 
I simply have the feeling that we are heading straight for an escalation course 
here. I already see it looming that some day the plug might be pulled on iD 
(being hosted on openstreetmap.org) and I really really don't want this to 
happen, lest even to think about it makes me sick.

Undoubtedly, the developers behavior is not helping there. I have the 
impression that they have almost given up on the OSM community. But this 
doesn't come out of nowhere.  I think it is important to understand their side 
of the story if we were to reverse this development.

I had to rewrite this last paragraph several times, but, well, I hope this does 
not come across the wrong way...
it can certainly not continue like this, so ... why not interview him, honestly 
and with open outcome, how should the collaboration and communication in OSM 
happen in the future from his point of view? Would he rather feel relieved or 
rather feel betrayed if the gatekeeping (~deployment) is done by other people? 
Does he really feel alienated (because I assumed it) from the community and if 
yes, why? And most importantly, what would it take to reverse this? 

Tobias

On 23/05/2019 17:15, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
> Though repeated attempts by @bhousel and @quincylvania to declare themselves 
> as
> final arbiters of OSM tagging and dismissing everybody else is certainly not 
> helping.
> 
> That is really not going to work, and it is a pity because plenty of work 
> done of him is really great
> but it is tainted by ignoring arguments of critics. No one is right all the 
> time.
> 
> To directly quote part of
> https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/6409#issuecomment-495231649
> 
> "Some things that don't really factor at all into our decision:
> 
>     how long a tag with implicit semantics has been in use
>     how many softwares (renderers / routers or whatever) already support the 
> implicit rule
>     how frequently the tag is used
>     what a handful of people on a mostly dormant mailing list think
>     what one person has written on the osm wiki
>     how many downvotes you encourage people to put on our issue list
>     what they are saying about us in the weekly osm tabloid"
> 
> So someone is dismissing what everybody else thinks and at the same time 
> expects everybody
> to accept his own opinions?
> 
> Some ideas from tagging mailing list and OSM wiki (even after limiting to 
> popular ones
> or "approved") are pointless/harmful but that is not a valid reason to simply 
> ignore all of them.
> 
> 23 May 2019, 10:16 by o...@westnordost.de:
> 
> I like your wording. It is a burden. He also takes all the complaints for 
> bugs and when iD steps on someone's shoes. This is a very stressful position 
> to be in.
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> 


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] ID is not a king and final arbiter of OSM (was: iD adding highway=footway to all railway/public_transport=platform ways and relations)

2019-05-23 Thread Mateusz Konieczny 
Though repeated attempts by @bhousel and @quincylvania to declare themselves as 
final arbiters of OSM tagging and dismissing everybody else is certainly not 
helping. 

That is really not going to work, and it is a pity because plenty of work done 
of him is really great
but it is tainted by ignoring arguments of critics. No one is right all the 
time.

To directly quote part of
https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/6409#issuecomment-495231649 


"Some things that don't really factor at all into our decision:

    how long a tag with implicit semantics has been in use
    how many softwares (renderers / routers or whatever) already support the 
implicit rule
    how frequently the tag is used
    what a handful of people on a mostly dormant mailing list think
    what one person has written on the osm wiki
    how many downvotes you encourage people to put on our issue list
    what they are saying about us in the weekly osm tabloid"
So someone is dismissing what everybody else thinks and at the same time 
expects everybody
to accept his own opinions?

Some ideas from tagging mailing list and OSM wiki (even after limiting to 
popular ones
or "approved") are pointless/harmful but that is not a valid reason to simply 
ignore all of them.

23 May 2019, 10:16 by o...@westnordost.de:

> I like your wording. It is a burden. He also takes all the complaints for 
> bugs and when iD steps on someone's shoes. This is a very stressful position 
> to be in.
>
>

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging