Re: [Tagging] Path or track with many fallen trees

[Rob Savoye]

On 6/26/20 8:13 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

> it’s up to your judgement, in my area if blocked with a mound this
> would not be a track anymore. You can decide whether keeping it for
> hikers (if legally and physically possible, i.e. highway=path) or

 A week or so ago I fixed a bunch of residential roads that map data
claimed continued out of the small developments and into national forest
land. They now have a dirt berm, (some have a gate) and the remaining
part of "road" is now closed for cars. Most were used as ATV trails by
locals, so I assumed a track. A few were obviously foot traffic only, so
now a path. Most of these were closed in only the last few years, I
talked to some of the locals. Access is still public, although the
neighbors wish otherwise...

- rob -

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Re: [Tagging] Path or track with many fallen trees

[Kevin Broderick]

Are they natural deadfall or human-cut?

I've seen photos of places where the USFS has felled a substantial number
of trees across a road that's being decommissioned (or just razed, as it
was never properly part of the forest road system to begin with). I believe
the intent is to both eliminate illicit motorized use and to discourage
environmental impacts that might occur if the road remained in place.

On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 9:59 AM Mike Thompson  wrote:

> Thanks for all of the great suggestions. I have used many of them.
>
> This is the way in question: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/819638979
>
> Trees have been there sometime by the looks of them, and are unlikely to
> be cleared. To the FS this track no longer exists (they have blocked its
> only junction with the larger network with a mount of earth), so they will
> not be removing the trees.  Way seems to get little traffic, even foot
> traffic.
>
>
> Mike
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Re: [Tagging] Path or track with many fallen trees

[Mike Thompson]

On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 8:15 AM Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:
>
>
>
> sent from a phone

> > On 26. Jun 2020, at 15:59, Mike Thompson  wrote:
> >
> > Trees have been there sometime by the looks of them, and are unlikely to
> be cleared. To the FS this track no longer exists (they have blocked its
> only junction with the larger network with a mount of earth), so they will
> not be removing the trees.  Way seems to get little traffic, even foot
> traffic.
>
>
> it’s up to your judgement, in my area if blocked with a mound this would
> not be a track anymore. You can decide whether keeping it for hikers (if
> legally and physically possible, i.e. highway=path) or putting it in decay
> state is more appropriate (e.g. abandoned:highway=track which will
> effectively  remove it from most maps). I would not completely delete it if
> it is still “mostly there”. Maybe an additional  “note” with some
> explanations for your fellow mappers could also be helpful
>
I think this is what I have basically done.
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Re: [Tagging] Path or track with many fallen trees

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 26. Jun 2020, at 15:59, Mike Thompson  wrote:
> 
> Trees have been there sometime by the looks of them, and are unlikely to be 
> cleared. To the FS this track no longer exists (they have blocked its only 
> junction with the larger network with a mount of earth), so they will not be 
> removing the trees.  Way seems to get little traffic, even foot traffic.


it’s up to your judgement, in my area if blocked with a mound this would not be 
a track anymore. You can decide whether keeping it for hikers (if legally and 
physically possible, i.e. highway=path) or putting it in decay state is more 
appropriate (e.g. abandoned:highway=track which will effectively  remove it 
from most maps). I would not completely delete it if it is still “mostly 
there”. Maybe an additional  “note” with some explanations for your fellow 
mappers could also be helpful 


Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Path or track with many fallen trees

[Mike Thompson]

Thanks for all of the great suggestions. I have used many of them.

This is the way in question: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/819638979

Trees have been there sometime by the looks of them, and are unlikely to be
cleared. To the FS this track no longer exists (they have blocked its only
junction with the larger network with a mount of earth), so they will not
be removing the trees.  Way seems to get little traffic, even foot traffic.


Mike
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Re: [Tagging] Path or track with many fallen trees

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 26. Jun 2020, at 02:58, Andrew Harvey  wrote:
> 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:barrier=log says it should only be 
> used on a node, but if you don't know exactly where then I'd say using it on 
> the way would be fine


when you add a barrier=log to something you say: this is a log. If you added 
barrier=log to the whole highway=track it means the whole track is also a log.

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Re: [Tagging] Path or track with many fallen trees

[Kevin Broderick]

As you've described it, I generally agree with Andrew's suggestions.

I do also think that expected local conditions matter; I've mapped some old
woods roads that are primarily used by Jeep and ATV traffic at this point.
Generally speaking, folks traveling those types of roads expect to find
varying conditions, including the possibility of deadfall. Many, if not
most, carry at least a hand saw. On those types of roads, I don't generally
try to keep track of deadfall, as it tends to be there until someone
happens to come through with a saw; if I see evidence of somewhat-recent
(i.e. last 12 months) cutting, I tend to ignore deadfall that happened to
land since then.

On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 8:58 PM Andrew Harvey 
wrote:

> It's a tricky one, but whatever is done I would need re-checking
> frequently to know when it was cleared.
>
> You could just add a single barrier=log somewhere as a rough
> approximation, or add barrier=log to the way segment which is affected.
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:barrier=log says it should only
> be used on a node, but if you don't know exactly where then I'd say using
> it on the way would be fine.
>
> You could also consider using one of the stages of decay lifecycle prefix
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Lifecycle_prefix#Stages_of_decay eg
> disused:highway=track, where disused is "Not currently available for use,
> but could be reinstated easily".
>
> For a path my rule of thumb is sac_scale=demandig_mountain_hiking means
> you need to use your hands and arms to get over something, so if that's the
> case because of logs, then I'd tag it that way.
>
> Lastly you can add a description so users could be presented with a text
> notice about the way http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:description
>
> On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 09:46, Mike Thompson  wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> How would you recommend tagging a path or track that has many fallen
>> trees across it? There are too many to map each one with a node tagged
>> barrier=log.  Foot travel is legal, but physically difficult.  Horse and
>> bicycle travel are legal but probably physically impossible.  Motorized
>> travel is prohibited, and would probably be physically impossible anyway.
>>
>> Thanks in advance for your input.
>>
>> Mike
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Path or track with many fallen trees

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Fr., 26. Juni 2020 um 12:02 Uhr schrieb Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org>:

> Jun 26, 2020, 09:29 by dieterdre...@gmail.com:
>
> to me this sounds like an unmaintained track road.
>
> Yes, but how we should tag it?
>


sorry, couldn't resist ;-)

I would tag a few obstacle=fallen_tree where there are. You could also
interrupt the highway=track and make it a footway/path where you can only
walk.
There is also barrier=log but I would see this as a tag for intentionally
placed logs, not for fallen trees.

Cheers
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Path or track with many fallen trees

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

Jun 26, 2020, 09:29 by dieterdre...@gmail.com:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
>> On 26. Jun 2020, at 01:45, Mike Thompson  wrote:
>>
>> How would you recommend tagging a path or track that has many fallen trees 
>> across it? There are too many to map each one with a node tagged barrier=log.
>>
>
>
> to me this sounds like an unmaintained track road.
>
Yes, but how we should tag it?

highway=track is for "track road" part, but
how to tag "unmaintained" is tricky

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Re: [Tagging] Path or track with many fallen trees

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 26. Jun 2020, at 01:45, Mike Thompson  wrote:
> 
> How would you recommend tagging a path or track that has many fallen trees 
> across it? There are too many to map each one with a node tagged barrier=log. 


to me this sounds like an unmaintained track road.

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Path or track with many fallen trees

[brad]

Usually this time of year there are many trees down from the winter, and 
trail users or the forest service will eventually get around to clearing 
them.   If there aren't enough motivated users, and/or the FS has 
abandoned it,  one of Andrews ideas is probably appropriate.


On 6/25/20 6:56 PM, Andrew Harvey wrote:
It's a tricky one, but whatever is done I would need re-checking 
frequently to know when it was cleared.


You could just add a single barrier=log somewhere as a rough 
approximation, or add barrier=log to the way segment which is 
affected. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:barrier=log says it 
should only be used on a node, but if you don't know exactly where 
then I'd say using it on the way would be fine.


You could also consider using one of the stages of decay lifecycle 
prefix 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Lifecycle_prefix#Stages_of_decay eg 
disused:highway=track, where disused is "Not currently available for 
use, but could be reinstated easily".


For a path my rule of thumb is sac_scale=demandig_mountain_hiking 
means you need to use your hands and arms to get over something, so if 
that's the case because of logs, then I'd tag it that way.


Lastly you can add a description so users could be presented with a 
text notice about the way 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:description


On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 09:46, Mike Thompson > wrote:


Hello,

How would you recommend tagging a path or track that has many
fallen trees across it? There are too many to map each one with a
node tagged barrier=log.  Foot travel is legal, but physically
difficult.  Horse and bicycle travel are legal but probably
physically impossible.  Motorized travel is prohibited, and would
probably be physically impossible anyway.

Thanks in advance for your input.

Mike

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Re: [Tagging] Path or track with many fallen trees

[Andrew Harvey]

It's a tricky one, but whatever is done I would need re-checking frequently
to know when it was cleared.

You could just add a single barrier=log somewhere as a rough approximation,
or add barrier=log to the way segment which is affected.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:barrier=log says it should only be
used on a node, but if you don't know exactly where then I'd say using it
on the way would be fine.

You could also consider using one of the stages of decay lifecycle prefix
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Lifecycle_prefix#Stages_of_decay eg
disused:highway=track, where disused is "Not currently available for use,
but could be reinstated easily".

For a path my rule of thumb is sac_scale=demandig_mountain_hiking means you
need to use your hands and arms to get over something, so if that's the
case because of logs, then I'd tag it that way.

Lastly you can add a description so users could be presented with a text
notice about the way http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:description

On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 09:46, Mike Thompson  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> How would you recommend tagging a path or track that has many fallen trees
> across it? There are too many to map each one with a node tagged
> barrier=log.  Foot travel is legal, but physically difficult.  Horse and
> bicycle travel are legal but probably physically impossible.  Motorized
> travel is prohibited, and would probably be physically impossible anyway.
>
> Thanks in advance for your input.
>
> Mike
>
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Re: [Tagging] Path or track with many fallen trees

[Rob Savoye]

On 6/25/20 5:44 PM, Mike Thompson wrote:

> How would you recommend tagging a path or track that has many fallen
> trees across it? There are too many to map each one with a node tagged
> barrier=log.  Foot travel is legal, but physically difficult.  Horse and
> bicycle travel are legal but probably physically impossible.  Motorized
> travel is prohibited, and would probably be physically impossible anyway.

  I do know a trail to Kit Carson Peak like that, but around here the
downed trees don't last long, so I'm not sure if I'd map them.

- rob -


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