Re: [Tagging] Tag for a plateau or tableland?

[Paul Johnson]

On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 5:13 PM Joseph Eisenberg 
wrote:

> Fri, Apr 19, 2019 at 7:.
>
>> I was wondering about leaving them all under peak?
>>
>> natural=peak
>> peak=hill/mountain/plateau/butte/mesa
>>
>> Would that work?
>>
>
> A peak is well defined as the local high point. A Mesa or butte will
> always have at least one peak, but the peak may be in one corner, which
> could be several kilometers from the center of a mesa, and a Mesa might
> have a dozen different peaks around it.
>
> Similarly, one named natural=ridge can have a dozen peaks, sometime with
> different names.
>
> Those Australian geological definitions are good, and match the American
> ones that I found. A Mesa and Butte are both bordered by an escarpment
> (cliff), while a “plateau” can also just be an elevated level area without
> cliffs.
>
> Since buttes are small they can usually be tagged just as a peak, but
> mesas need a tag for the center of the area.
>

That makes mapping things like Black Mesa

interesting... spanning the Oklahoma-New Mexico border, seems like an area
outline around the outside of the tabletop would be a good idea.  (Link
goes to OpenCycleMap, the contour lines don't quite pack together in a way
that properly shows how dramatic it looks on satellite).  I have no idea
what the peak point in New Mexico labeled Black Mesa represents (possibly
the highest spot on the mesa's tabletop, but I recognize the one in
Oklahoma as being probably more logically tagged as a tourism attraction or
monument since it's not so much a peak as it is a slightly high prominence
on the top of Black Mesa that happens to be the highest spot in the State
of Oklahoma, even if it's not the highest spot on the top of Black Mesa.
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Re: [Tagging] Tag for a plateau or tableland?

[Joseph Eisenberg]

> there are many cases in OSM where different things are all tagged the
same ...
> brook, creek, stream, rivulet -> stream

These are mapped with one tag because there is not an objective distinction
between these names for waterways. There is waterway=stream vs
waterway=river for wide natural waterways vs narrow (“too big to jump
across” vs “jumpable”)

> bay, cove -> bay
Coves are small bays, but I do t think there is a clear way to distinguish
them

> peak, knob, hill, mound, mountain, pinnacle, tops -> peak
Several of these may refer to a ridge or massif rather than to an OSM peak,
which is a local high point. We do have natural=ridge for some of these,
which is a linear feature rather than a point.

Another example is cape vs peninsula. The tag natural=cape is used for
headlands, points, capes, etc and is a node at the extreme point of land.
Peninsula is used to describe an area of land that is mostly surrounded by
water. Some capes, like Cape Cod and they Cape of Good Hope, are both a
named peninsula and a cape with the same name, but can be mapped as 2
feature in OSM.

This is also similar to a place=hamlet mapped as a point, which may be in a
landuse=residential area, and might also be surrounded by an administrative
boundary with the same name (though in this case it would not be normal to
tag the landuse=residential with the same name)
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Re: [Tagging] Tag for a plateau or tableland?

[Joseph Eisenberg]

Fri, Apr 19, 2019 at 7:.

> I was wondering about leaving them all under peak?
>
> natural=peak
> peak=hill/mountain/plateau/butte/mesa
>
> Would that work?
>

A peak is well defined as the local high point. A Mesa or butte will always
have at least one peak, but the peak may be in one corner, which could be
several kilometers from the center of a mesa, and a Mesa might have a dozen
different peaks around it.

Similarly, one named natural=ridge can have a dozen peaks, sometime with
different names.

Those Australian geological definitions are good, and match the American
ones that I found. A Mesa and Butte are both bordered by an escarpment
(cliff), while a “plateau” can also just be an elevated level area without
cliffs.

Since buttes are small they can usually be tagged just as a peak, but mesas
need a tag for the center of the area.

>
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Re: [Tagging] Tag for a plateau or tableland?

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Thu, 18 Apr 2019 at 23:40, Andrew Harvey 
wrote:

> It may be worth having different definitions, but I did want to point out
> there are many cases in OSM where different things are all tagged the same,
>
> peak, knob, hill, mound, mountain, pinnacle, tops -> peak
>

On Thu, 18 Apr 2019 at 16:09, Andrew Harvey 
wrote:

>
> An alternative is natural=plateau + plateau=butte|mesa or something like
that.

I was wondering about leaving them all under peak?

natural=peak
peak=hill/mountain/plateau/butte/mesa

Would that work?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Tag for a plateau or tableland?

[Michael Patrick]

>> But if a locality represents only a historic location that has no
>>  physical presence today, it is debatable if this is a “real and
>>  current” feature that is appropriate for OSM rather than a historical
>>  map.

> If the name is still in present use then it belongs in OSM, even if
> there is no physical presence on the ground people still use the name to
> define the place.

We might get some ideas about how to handle these issues about what goes on
the map from organizations that have already dealt with them ( some like
the British Ordnance Survey, over hundreds of years ). They publish their
naming policies ( Toponymic Nomenclature  ), and almost every country ( and
the U.N. ) has one, The U.N. links to these from
https://unstats.un.org/Unsd/geoinfo/UNGEGN/nna.html and the Canadian one,
for example is at
https://unstats.un.org/Unsd/geoinfo/UNGEGN/docs/NNA/GNBC_english_accessible.pdf
- refer to 'Principle 2', for example: "NAMES IN GENERAL PUBLIC USE" - First
priority shall be given to names with long-standing local usage by the general
public. Unless there are good reasons to the contrary, this principle should
prevail. Most U.S. states also have a board:
https://www.jstor.org/stable/20615877?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

Unlike most agency documents, these can be a pretty fun read, imaging the
arguments that created the item in the first place: " ... Examples are
Pekwachnamaykoskwaskwaypinwanik
Lake in Manitoba and Île Kuchistiniwamiskahikan in Quebec."!

Remote mapping, it is really hard to tell if a name is in use locally, and
frequently I've encountered names like 'Jackson's Barn' that the original
landmark rotted away fifty years ago.


> but when the thing is gone, (a rail line stop that is no longer there),
or is a collection of larger items that get named like a city or a village
- yet have zero residents - seems like a good use for locality to me.

+1

> Thus mesas and buttes could be mapped as nodes or areas, but plateaus
could only be mapped as nodes. Thoughts?

I scanned the NGA name server, and plateaus seem to be large areas, and
mapped as points.

Michael Patrick
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Re: [Tagging] Tag for a plateau or tableland?

[Andrew Harvey]

It may be worth having different definitions, but I did want to point out
there are many cases in OSM where different things are all tagged the same,
which I generally think is a good thing (easier for mappers to find the
right tag and less disagreement on which tag to use). Just some food for
thought.

brook, creek, stream, rivulet -> stream
bay, cove -> bay
peak, knob, hill, mound, mountain, pinnacle, tops -> peak

I checked some local Australian definitions of these terms below. To be
honest, as a non-geologist I find it hard to work out which tag to use,
unless of course you're just basing it what's used in the name. Calling
them all plateau would be easier, but I wouldn't stop people who know more
about geology from mapping down to more detail.

MESA
A flat table-like upland, which falls away steeply on all
sides (escarpments). It is larger in area than a ‘butte’ but
smaller than a ‘plateau’.

BUTTE
A small residual of a mesa. The level top being the upper
surface of the hard stratum but little lowered by erosion.
The slopes on all sides are escarpments and its maximum
horizontal dimension in any one direction is about 400
metres.

PLATEAU
An elevated tract of comparatively flat or level land,
having a large part of its total surface at or near the
summit level. Its local relief may be very great in cases
where it is cut by gorges, or it may have a small local
relief like a plain in cases where erosion has not been
severe. Its minimum horizontal dimension in any
direction generally exceeds 1.6km.

TABLELAND
An elevated tract of land with a generally level surface of
considerable extent, generally with a minimum area of
2,500 hectares.


On Thu, 18 Apr 2019 at 17:33, Paul Allen  wrote:

> On Thu, 18 Apr 2019 at 07:09, Andrew Harvey 
> wrote:
>
>> This does make it harder for mappers to decide which one they should use,
>> but if in doubt they can just pick one they think is best.
>>
>
> The local convention as to what it is may help them decide.
>
> An alternative is natural=plateau + plateau=butte|mesa or something like
>> that.
>>
>
> The problem with that is that plateau, butte and mesa refer to (depending
> upon which Wikipedia
> article you look at) either different absolute sizes or different
> height/area ratios.  And while
> plateau=butte and plateau=mesa may not offend too many sensibilities,
> plateau=plateau looks
> rather silly.  And you can't use plateau=yes because that might be used
> for "it's flat but I can't
> tell if it's a butte or a mesa."
>
> --
> Paul
>
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Re: [Tagging] Tag for a plateau or tableland?

[Paul Allen]

On Thu, 18 Apr 2019 at 07:09, Andrew Harvey 
wrote:

> This does make it harder for mappers to decide which one they should use,
> but if in doubt they can just pick one they think is best.
>

The local convention as to what it is may help them decide.

An alternative is natural=plateau + plateau=butte|mesa or something like
> that.
>

The problem with that is that plateau, butte and mesa refer to (depending
upon which Wikipedia
article you look at) either different absolute sizes or different
height/area ratios.  And while
plateau=butte and plateau=mesa may not offend too many sensibilities,
plateau=plateau looks
rather silly.  And you can't use plateau=yes because that might be used for
"it's flat but I can't
tell if it's a butte or a mesa."

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Tag for a plateau or tableland?

[Andrew Harvey]

This does make it harder for mappers to decide which one they should use,
but if in doubt they can just pick one they think is best.

An alternative is natural=plateau + plateau=butte|mesa or something like
that.

> Thus mesas and buttes could be mapped as nodes or areas, but plateaus
could only be mapped as nodes.

I still think plateaus should be mapped as areas (only use nodes as a first
pass), areas are important for reverse geocoding, identifying size of the
feature and cartographic labelling.

On Thu, 18 Apr 2019 at 15:55, Joseph Eisenberg 
wrote:

> I originally thought that just using the existing tag natural=plateau
> was easiest, but a couple people have been in favor of using 2 new
> tags.
>
> 1) natural=butte for hills with small flat tops surrounded by cliffs,
> where the width of the flat area is less than the height of the hill.
> Wikipedia: " an isolated hill with steep, often vertical sides and a
> small, relatively flat top" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butte)
> These buttes in Monument Valley are a very famous example:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Monument_Valley,_late_afternoon.jpg
> Courthouse butte in Sedona:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Butte_pdphoto_roadtrip_24_bg_021604.jpg
>
> 2) natural=mesa for mountains and hills with flat tops surrounded by
> cliffs, where the width of the flat tableland is greater than the
> height.
> See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesa "an elevated area of land with
> a flat top and sides that are usually steep cliffs"
> Eg these mesas in Canyonlands National Park, Utah:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:IslandInTheSky.JPG
> Lower Table Rock:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lower_Table_Rock_from_the_south.jpg
>
> These definitions are found in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butte -
> "geographers use the rule of thumb that a mesa has a top that is wider
> than its height, while a butte has a top that is narrower than its
> height" (citing
>
> http://www.scienceclarified.com/landforms/Faults-to-Mountains/Mesa-and-Butte.html
> as a source)
>
> This would leave natural=plateau for any other "area of a highland,
> usually consisting of relatively flat terrain, that is raised
> significantly above the surrounding area, often with one or more sides
> with steep slopes", including large highlands that are less well
> defined, and small plateaus that lack the cliffs or steep slopes on
> all sides that define a mesa or butte.
>
> Thus mesas and buttes could be mapped as nodes or areas, but plateaus
> could only be mapped as nodes.
>
> Thoughts?
>
>
> On 4/18/19, Paul Allen  wrote:
> > On Wed, 17 Apr 2019 at 19:11, Mark Wagner  wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> I don't think there's an English English term for them -- England
> >> barely has any topographical relief at all.  They even had to import
> >> "mountain" from the French.
> >
> >
> > The UK does have some topographical relief but not any plateaus that I
> can
> > think of.  However,
> > we Brits are familiar with the word - we stole various parts of the world
> > from indigenous
> > inhabitants which had that sort of topography.
> >
> > Unless there's something I'm missing, we're going to need to pick an
> >> English import
> >> from one of the countries that does have plateaus, mesas, or buttes.
> >>
> >
> > We may have to use all of those words.  From looking at the three
> relevant
> > articles on
> > Wikipedia, it appears that mesas are larger than buttes and plateaus are
> > larger than mesas.
> > Tableland is a synonym of plateau.  I'd say natural=plateau/mesa/butte.
> > But I expect there will
> > be many people who disagree with that - there are as many opinions on
> this
> > list as there
> > are subscribers.
> >
> > --
> > Paul
> >
>
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Re: [Tagging] Tag for a plateau or tableland?

[Joseph Eisenberg]

I originally thought that just using the existing tag natural=plateau
was easiest, but a couple people have been in favor of using 2 new
tags.

1) natural=butte for hills with small flat tops surrounded by cliffs,
where the width of the flat area is less than the height of the hill.
Wikipedia: " an isolated hill with steep, often vertical sides and a
small, relatively flat top" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butte)
These buttes in Monument Valley are a very famous example:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Monument_Valley,_late_afternoon.jpg
Courthouse butte in Sedona:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Butte_pdphoto_roadtrip_24_bg_021604.jpg

2) natural=mesa for mountains and hills with flat tops surrounded by
cliffs, where the width of the flat tableland is greater than the
height.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesa "an elevated area of land with
a flat top and sides that are usually steep cliffs"
Eg these mesas in Canyonlands National Park, Utah:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:IslandInTheSky.JPG
Lower Table Rock:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lower_Table_Rock_from_the_south.jpg

These definitions are found in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butte -
"geographers use the rule of thumb that a mesa has a top that is wider
than its height, while a butte has a top that is narrower than its
height" (citing
http://www.scienceclarified.com/landforms/Faults-to-Mountains/Mesa-and-Butte.html
as a source)

This would leave natural=plateau for any other "area of a highland,
usually consisting of relatively flat terrain, that is raised
significantly above the surrounding area, often with one or more sides
with steep slopes", including large highlands that are less well
defined, and small plateaus that lack the cliffs or steep slopes on
all sides that define a mesa or butte.

Thus mesas and buttes could be mapped as nodes or areas, but plateaus
could only be mapped as nodes.

Thoughts?


On 4/18/19, Paul Allen  wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Apr 2019 at 19:11, Mark Wagner  wrote:
>
>>
>> I don't think there's an English English term for them -- England
>> barely has any topographical relief at all.  They even had to import
>> "mountain" from the French.
>
>
> The UK does have some topographical relief but not any plateaus that I can
> think of.  However,
> we Brits are familiar with the word - we stole various parts of the world
> from indigenous
> inhabitants which had that sort of topography.
>
> Unless there's something I'm missing, we're going to need to pick an
>> English import
>> from one of the countries that does have plateaus, mesas, or buttes.
>>
>
> We may have to use all of those words.  From looking at the three relevant
> articles on
> Wikipedia, it appears that mesas are larger than buttes and plateaus are
> larger than mesas.
> Tableland is a synonym of plateau.  I'd say natural=plateau/mesa/butte.
> But I expect there will
> be many people who disagree with that - there are as many opinions on this
> list as there
> are subscribers.
>
> --
> Paul
>

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Re: [Tagging] Tag for a plateau or tableland?

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 17 Apr 2019 at 19:11, Mark Wagner  wrote:

>
> I don't think there's an English English term for them -- England
> barely has any topographical relief at all.  They even had to import
> "mountain" from the French.


The UK does have some topographical relief but not any plateaus that I can
think of.  However,
we Brits are familiar with the word - we stole various parts of the world
from indigenous
inhabitants which had that sort of topography.

Unless there's something I'm missing, we're going to need to pick an
> English import
> from one of the countries that does have plateaus, mesas, or buttes.
>

We may have to use all of those words.  From looking at the three relevant
articles on
Wikipedia, it appears that mesas are larger than buttes and plateaus are
larger than mesas.
Tableland is a synonym of plateau.  I'd say natural=plateau/mesa/butte.
But I expect there will
be many people who disagree with that - there are as many opinions on this
list as there
are subscribers.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Tag for a plateau or tableland?

[Mark Wagner]

On Wed, 17 Apr 2019 09:44:33 +0200
Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

> sent from a phone
> 
> > On 17. Apr 2019, at 06:55, Joseph Eisenberg
> >  wrote:
> > 
> > I searched taginfo for "tableland", "table_land", "table-land",
> > "plateau" and "mesa".
> > 
> > There are 94 natural=plateau and 3 natural=mesa.
> > I found no uses of natural=table or table_land or tableland or
> > tableland  
> 
> 
> there are also 52 natural=plain and no *=high_plain nor * table_mount
> or flat-top_mount
> 
> Would you see a tableland different from table_mount or synonymous?
> After all these are different words.
> 
> Maybe there is overlap?
> 
> Generally I would prefer to use an English English term, rather than
> a Spanish or French English term.

I don't think there's an English English term for them -- England
barely has any topographical relief at all.  They even had to import
"mountain" from the French.  Unless there's something I'm missing,
we're going to need to pick an English import from one of the countries
that does have plateaus, mesas, or buttes.

-- 
Mark

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Re: [Tagging] Tag for a plateau or tableland?

[Joseph Eisenberg]

The several related Wikipedia pages failed to mention Table Mount as a
synonym, even though they had plenty of foreign language terms listed.
American English bias perhaps?

The first hit I get for “table mount” is Guyot: “In marine geology, a guyot
also known as a tablemount, is an isolated underwater volcanic mountain (
seamount)”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guyot

That’s not the same. There is also a proper name “Table Mountain”, a
flat-topped mountain on the Cape of Good Hope peninsula by Capetown

It looks like the Dutch / Afrikaans term is literally “Tablemountain”.
Perhaps it is the same in German?

On Wed, Apr 17, 2019 at 4:45 PM Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 17. Apr 2019, at 06:55, Joseph Eisenberg 
> wrote:
> >
> > I searched taginfo for "tableland", "table_land", "table-land",
> > "plateau" and "mesa".
> >
> > There are 94 natural=plateau and 3 natural=mesa.
> > I found no uses of natural=table or table_land or tableland or tableland
>
>
> there are also 52 natural=plain and no *=high_plain nor * table_mount or
> flat-top_mount
>
> Would you see a tableland different from table_mount or synonymous? After
> all these are different words.
>
> Maybe there is overlap?
>
> Generally I would prefer to use an English English term, rather than a
> Spanish or French English term.
>
> Cheers, Martin
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Tag for a plateau or tableland?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 17. Apr 2019, at 06:55, Joseph Eisenberg  
> wrote:
> 
> I searched taginfo for "tableland", "table_land", "table-land",
> "plateau" and "mesa".
> 
> There are 94 natural=plateau and 3 natural=mesa.
> I found no uses of natural=table or table_land or tableland or tableland


there are also 52 natural=plain and no *=high_plain nor * table_mount or 
flat-top_mount

Would you see a tableland different from table_mount or synonymous? After all 
these are different words.

Maybe there is overlap?

Generally I would prefer to use an English English term, rather than a Spanish 
or French English term.

Cheers, Martin 


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Re: [Tagging] Tag for a plateau or tableland?

[Andrew Harvey]

Plateau, table, tablelands all used in Australia.

landform=plateau has 5 usages
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/landform=plateau

natural=plateau seems fine to me. Could be called walls sometimes, but to
me it's unclear if that's the term for the plateau or the cliffs that
surround the plateau.

On Wed, 17 Apr 2019 at 14:56, Joseph Eisenberg 
wrote:

> I'm surprised that I can't find an established tag or wiki page for a
> plateau, mesa, or tableland; an area of raised land that is flat on
> top:
>
> See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plateau and
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesa and
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_(landform)
>
> Small plateaus or mesas may be called a "Butte" in the USA, or a
> tableland in some English-speaking regions. See
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butte
>
> They are known as "Mesas" in Spanish-speaking areas and related
> languages. I believe "plateau" is from French?
>
> These features are common in arid areas of the southwestern United
> States and in many other places that have the appropriate geology:
> usually there is a hard layer of rock on top of softer layers. This
> often forms a flat area with steep slopes or even cliffs at the sides.
> They can also from from volcanic activity, or from glaciation.
>
> I searched taginfo for "tableland", "table_land", "table-land",
> "plateau" and "mesa".
>
> There are 94 natural=plateau and 3 natural=mesa.
> I found no uses of natural=table or table_land or tableland or tableland
>
> Is natural=plateau the best option? This sounds fine to me, as an
> American English speaker, but I'd like to know if it's the best
> British English option.
>
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