Re: [Tagging] Unremovable bollards

[Philip Barnes]

Often used to make residential streets into deadends to prevent rat-running, to 
enforce vehicle bans, to prevent delivery vehicles parking on the sidewalk 
instead of the delivery bay.

In most cases bollards are fixed, there is usually only one or two removable 
bollards to create a gap wide enough to allow access for maintenance vehicles.

Phil (trigpoint)

 

On Monday, 17 February 2020, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> Am So., 16. Feb. 2020 um 22:52 Uhr schrieb Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:
> 
> > Umm...
> >
> > Bollards are there to protect people.
> >
> 
> 
> 
> they might be there to protect people, but not in all instances, their
> purpose is to either physically prevent or at least signal to vehicles
> wider than x to pass, while they allow people and narrow vehicles to pass.
> They could also be set up to protect buildings, parks / lawn strips, to
> prevent vehicles from making u-turns, etc.
> 
> Cheers
> Martin
>

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Unremovable bollards

[Volker Schmidt]

Sorry to be insistent.
If we create more bollard attributes, we should keep in mind that the
relevant bollard properties from a car drivers point of views are very
different than those of a cyclist or of a blind person may consider
relevant.
*Flexibility*:
a soft flexible bollard will not do anything to a car. It will make a blind
person angry, and it may cause the cyclist to fall and be hurt from the
fall (not from the bollard!)
a hard flexible bollard (
https://sc02.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1u.VtKXXEXVXXq6xXFXXX4/Traffic-Safety-Black-Delineator-Concrete-Bollards.jpg)
will not doo anything to a slow Land Rover. It will make a blind person
very angry, and may cause impact injury to a cyclist plus injury from the
fall.
*Height*
a terrible solution are low bollards, they stop cars, but may cause fall
and injurayto any weak road user. The risk that you my not see them,
depending on the light conditions.(twovery bad examples:
https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/vWy2ZEEwavA7qCu0jiIyog,
https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/zp-X0Si_CCg2RijAoYX_hQ)

*Visibility*
Another aspect is poor visibility, especially at night (no reflective
marking, dark colour):
https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/t5VQYDJkjtR47IlvZw6g5A





On Mon, 17 Feb 2020 at 09:47, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

> Am So., 16. Feb. 2020 um 21:54 Uhr schrieb ET Commands <
> etcomma...@gmail.com>:
>
>>
>> My spelling check does not like "unremovable" but instead suggests
>> "irremovable."  However, if I want to be nit-picky, all bollards are
>> ultimately removable, so maybe more appropriate values would be
>> "retractable" and "non-retractable."
>
>
>
>
> if you look at the details, the situation may be quite different:
>
> - some may be (at least physically) folded (or pulled out) by anybody, no
> key or code required
> e.g.
> https://images.zufor.de/images/product_images/400x/umlegbar-selbstaufrichtend-zzobsozo.jpg
>
> - others may require a specific key (private), or a generic key (e.g.
> available to the fire department)
>
> - another variant are bollards that retract into the ground (hydraulically
> or pneumatically, maybe this distinction doesn't matter for us)
> e.g.
> https://5.imimg.com/data5/FD/EP/MY-1744683/hydraulic-bollard-500x500.jpg
>
> - yet another variant are fixed bollards, which may either be strong (e.g.
> not breakable with a standard car, at least not without breaking the car as
> well) e.g. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Poller_auf_Buergersteig.jpg
>
> - or could be flexible or light or not restraint (i.e. more symbolic than
> physical) e.g.
> https://sc02.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1u.VtKXXEXVXXq6xXFXXX4/Traffic-Safety-Black-Delineator-Concrete-Bollards.jpg
> or
> https://sc02.alicdn.com/kf/Hbd2b0a9d420440ca94f0580be9e648b53/Queue-Management-System-Bank-Retracta-Belt-Barrier.jpg
>
>
> Cheers
> Martin
>
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Re: [Tagging] Unremovable bollards

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am So., 16. Feb. 2020 um 21:54 Uhr schrieb ET Commands :

>
> My spelling check does not like "unremovable" but instead suggests
> "irremovable."  However, if I want to be nit-picky, all bollards are
> ultimately removable, so maybe more appropriate values would be
> "retractable" and "non-retractable."




if you look at the details, the situation may be quite different:

- some may be (at least physically) folded (or pulled out) by anybody, no
key or code required
e.g.
https://images.zufor.de/images/product_images/400x/umlegbar-selbstaufrichtend-zzobsozo.jpg

- others may require a specific key (private), or a generic key (e.g.
available to the fire department)

- another variant are bollards that retract into the ground (hydraulically
or pneumatically, maybe this distinction doesn't matter for us)
e.g.
https://5.imimg.com/data5/FD/EP/MY-1744683/hydraulic-bollard-500x500.jpg

- yet another variant are fixed bollards, which may either be strong (e.g.
not breakable with a standard car, at least not without breaking the car as
well) e.g. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Poller_auf_Buergersteig.jpg

- or could be flexible or light or not restraint (i.e. more symbolic than
physical) e.g.
https://sc02.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1u.VtKXXEXVXXq6xXFXXX4/Traffic-Safety-Black-Delineator-Concrete-Bollards.jpg
or
https://sc02.alicdn.com/kf/Hbd2b0a9d420440ca94f0580be9e648b53/Queue-Management-System-Bank-Retracta-Belt-Barrier.jpg


Cheers
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Unremovable bollards

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am So., 16. Feb. 2020 um 22:52 Uhr schrieb Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:

> Umm...
>
> Bollards are there to protect people.
>



they might be there to protect people, but not in all instances, their
purpose is to either physically prevent or at least signal to vehicles
wider than x to pass, while they allow people and narrow vehicles to pass.
They could also be set up to protect buildings, parks / lawn strips, to
prevent vehicles from making u-turns, etc.

Cheers
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Unremovable bollards

[Warin]

A fair few people die in these places;
hospitals
private homes
'retirement villages'

If I knew where I was going to die.. i would not go there.


On 17/2/20 9:15 am, Florimond Berthoux wrote:

So I guess you'll be against mapping roads also ?
1.35 millions deaths, that something to consider 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate



Le dim. 16 févr. 2020 à 22:52, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> a écrit :




Umm...

Bollards are there to protect people. With the present threats I
would think identifying which bollards could be easily driven
through on a public map/data base would be a bad idea.


So I would be firmly against the idea of the subtag value
'=breakable'.




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Re: [Tagging] Unremovable bollards

[Warin]

On 17/2/20 10:26 am, Hauke Stieler wrote:

Hi,


I too prefer 'fixed'.

Foldable, is also in some sense irremovable/unremovable (spell check objects) 
where as I think 'fixed' is a better description as it implies not foldable, 
removeable nor lowerable.

I was starting to write a whole page why I don't like "fixed" instead of
"unremovable" but the more I think about this, the more I like the value
"fixed".

One thing I worried about were flexible/soft bollards [0]. I would not
describe them as "fixed" regarding their ability to
move/bend/rotate/..., but they still remain on their location on the
ground, even though they are flexible. Therefore this would make sense
to call them "fixed".


Or call them what they are 'flexible'. No reason not to say what they are.



I currently don't know that a "lowerable" bollard looks like and how it
works. Do you have an example?


Can be found in my area .. though I cannot recall mapping them. They look the 
same as fixed ones ... The ones here are a simple tube shape , with an annulus 
at the base. Someone presses a button some wher and they slowly lower into the 
ground. And then I suppose another button is pressed and they slowly raise up.

Arr here is a supplier.

http://www.bollards.com.au/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI3IjQ0bDX5wIVWK6WCh2PdQhvEAAYBCAAEgLyifD_BwE

They call them 'retractable' - various ones - air operated, key or padlock.

I am certain there will be other suppliers.





I would love to hear some feedback on these two values:

"fixed":
A bollard which cannot be removed without destroying it or at least
cause severe damage to it. If a bollard has some sort of lock to remove
it, it's *not* fixed.

"foldable":
A bollard which can be rotated so it lays on the ground so that e.g.
vehicles can pass it [1]. Some kind of key or wrench might be needed.
This bollard can easily be moved back to it's previous position with no
damage left.



Hauke

[0] https://www.postguard.com/image/catalog/flexbol3.jpg
[1]
https://www.ledasecurity.com.au/lda/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/510da3693ad569fe75e5fdbeab5e8aaa.jpg


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Re: [Tagging] Unremovable bollards

[Hauke Stieler]

Hi,

> I too prefer 'fixed'.
> 
> Foldable, is also in some sense irremovable/unremovable (spell check objects) 
> where as I think 'fixed' is a better description as it implies not foldable, 
> removeable nor lowerable. 

I was starting to write a whole page why I don't like "fixed" instead of
"unremovable" but the more I think about this, the more I like the value
"fixed".

One thing I worried about were flexible/soft bollards [0]. I would not
describe them as "fixed" regarding their ability to
move/bend/rotate/..., but they still remain on their location on the
ground, even though they are flexible. Therefore this would make sense
to call them "fixed".

I currently don't know that a "lowerable" bollard looks like and how it
works. Do you have an example?



I would love to hear some feedback on these two values:

"fixed":
A bollard which cannot be removed without destroying it or at least
cause severe damage to it. If a bollard has some sort of lock to remove
it, it's *not* fixed.

"foldable":
A bollard which can be rotated so it lays on the ground so that e.g.
vehicles can pass it [1]. Some kind of key or wrench might be needed.
This bollard can easily be moved back to it's previous position with no
damage left.



Hauke

[0] https://www.postguard.com/image/catalog/flexbol3.jpg
[1]
https://www.ledasecurity.com.au/lda/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/510da3693ad569fe75e5fdbeab5e8aaa.jpg



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Re: [Tagging] Unremovable bollards

[Volker Schmidt]

These things may just damage cars, but they definitely hurt cyclists and
pedestrians when they hit them. They are often badly visible and their only
purpose, at least here in Italy, to discourage car owners from entering
cycle or foot paths. I know personally of cyclists who ended up in
hospital.

The "breakable" tag should only be used if the "breakability" is clearly
marked and hence no secret to people with bad intentions.

As far as the "irremovability" is concerned, we do have some massive
trachite bollards which need heavy equipment to remove them, but most of
the others can be temporarily removed for road maintenance ecc., but  for
the normal road users they are irremovable.


On Sun, 16 Feb 2020 at 23:07, Jarek Piórkowski  wrote:

> On Sun, 16 Feb 2020 at 16:51, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Umm...
> >
> > Bollards are there to protect people. With the present threats I would
> think identifying which bollards could be easily driven through on a public
> map/data base would be a bad idea.
> >
> >
> > So I would be firmly against the idea of the subtag value '=breakable'.
>
> I'm not really sure
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Bollard_in_residential_area.jpg
> does much protecting against any determined actor.
>
> That kind of bollard is there as guidance where to drive (more or less
> effective depending on how much attention the driver is paying). Shall
> we not map these at all?
>
> IMO the more serious pedestrian protection is more likely to be
> barrier=block (some heavy-duty bollards notwithstanding)
>
> --Jarek
>
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Re: [Tagging] Unremovable bollards

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

What I've been wondering with regard to this whole topic is whether you
would also need to add an entry for who can remove the bollard?

Would that be covered by  access=xxx ?

Thanks

Graeme


On Mon, 17 Feb 2020 at 08:10, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 17/2/20 8:52 am, Jarek Piórkowski wrote:
>
> On Sun, 16 Feb 2020 at 15:53, ET Commands  
>  wrote:
>
> bollard=unremovable for fixed bollards sounds good to me.
>
> My spelling check does not like "unremovable" but instead suggests
> "irremovable."  However, if I want to be nit-picky, all bollards are
> ultimately removable, so maybe more appropriate values would be
> "retractable" and "non-retractable."
>
> Around here, many removable bollards are removed by unlocking a lock
> near the ground and lifting them out manually - I'm not sure if I
> would describe that as "retractable".
>
> Others are unlocked and then can be put flat against the ground,
> that's covered by "hinged" I guess but only 3 uses worldwide...
> perhaps covered by "foldable" with 62 uses.
>
> "Fixed" does sound to me more straightforward than "unremovable" though.
>
>
> I too prefer 'fixed'.
>
> Foldable, is also in some sense irremovable/unremovable (spell check objects) 
> where as I think 'fixed' is a better description as it implies not foldable, 
> removeable nor lowerable.
>
> So I would have 4 things to describe bollard status of permanency;
>
> fixed
>
> foldable
>
> removable
>
> lowerable
>
> I note there are at lest 3 keys used;
>
> bollard:type ... looks like it is used to describe the structure ... and also 
> the permanency
>
> bollard_type similar to bollard:type
>
> bollard_crossing ... I have no idea.
>
> None of these have a wiki!
>
> Suggest that a descriptive key name be used!!! The word 'type' has no 
> information.
>
> bollard_permanency=*???
>
> And make a wiki entry for it please.
>
>
>
>
> If you want, then another key so the above does not get polluted?
>
> bollard_structure=block/post/*
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Unremovable bollards

[Jarek Piórkowski]

On Sun, 16 Feb 2020 at 17:10, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If you want, then another key so the above does not get polluted?
>
> bollard_structure=block/post/*

bollard_structure=block would surely be better off as a barrier=block?
That's already well established.

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Re: [Tagging] Unremovable bollards

[Florimond Berthoux]

So I guess you'll be against mapping roads also ?
1.35 millions deaths, that something to consider
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate


Le dim. 16 févr. 2020 à 22:52, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> a écrit :

> On 16/2/20 10:29 pm, Florimond Berthoux wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Checking https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/bollard#values
> unremovable is already used a lot, though irremovable is used also but
> four times less. So I guess you can document the value.
> (And no tag doesn't mean unremovable of course.)
>
> I would like to add that there's a common type in Paris "Potelet sécable"
> breakable bollard which are designed to break in two piece if pushed too
> much. [1] 
> Only a small piece break, so they can be repaired quickly and for not much
> money.
> They are used a lot when firemen should be able to go with their trucks on
> an pedestrian area.
>
> No sure if those breakable bollards should be tag as bollard=unremovable
> with subtag (unremovable=breakable) or directly bollard=breakable.
>
>
> Umm...
>
> Bollards are there to protect people. With the present threats I would
> think identifying which bollards could be easily driven through on a public
> map/data base would be a bad idea.
>
>
> So I would be firmly against the idea of the subtag value '=breakable'.
>

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Unremovable bollards

[Warin]

On 17/2/20 8:52 am, Jarek Piórkowski wrote:

On Sun, 16 Feb 2020 at 15:53, ET Commands  wrote:

bollard=unremovable for fixed bollards sounds good to me.

My spelling check does not like "unremovable" but instead suggests
"irremovable."  However, if I want to be nit-picky, all bollards are
ultimately removable, so maybe more appropriate values would be
"retractable" and "non-retractable."

Around here, many removable bollards are removed by unlocking a lock
near the ground and lifting them out manually - I'm not sure if I
would describe that as "retractable".

Others are unlocked and then can be put flat against the ground,
that's covered by "hinged" I guess but only 3 uses worldwide...
perhaps covered by "foldable" with 62 uses.

"Fixed" does sound to me more straightforward than "unremovable" though.



I too prefer 'fixed'.

Foldable, is also in some sense irremovable/unremovable (spell check objects) 
where as I think 'fixed' is a better description as it implies not foldable, 
removeable nor lowerable.

So I would have 4 things to describe bollard status of permanency;

fixed

foldable

removable

lowerable

I note there are at lest 3 keys used;

bollard:type ... looks like it is used to describe the structure ... and also 
the permanency

bollard_type similar to bollard:type

bollard_crossing ... I have no idea.

None of these have a wiki!

Suggest that a descriptive key name be used!!! The word 'type' has no 
information.

bollard_permanency=*???

And make a wiki entry for it please.



If you want, then another key so the above does not get polluted?

bollard_structure=block/post/*


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Re: [Tagging] Unremovable bollards

[Jarek Piórkowski]

On Sun, 16 Feb 2020 at 16:51, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Umm...
>
> Bollards are there to protect people. With the present threats I would think 
> identifying which bollards could be easily driven through on a public 
> map/data base would be a bad idea.
>
>
> So I would be firmly against the idea of the subtag value '=breakable'.

I'm not really sure
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Bollard_in_residential_area.jpg
does much protecting against any determined actor.

That kind of bollard is there as guidance where to drive (more or less
effective depending on how much attention the driver is paying). Shall
we not map these at all?

IMO the more serious pedestrian protection is more likely to be
barrier=block (some heavy-duty bollards notwithstanding)

--Jarek

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Re: [Tagging] Unremovable bollards

[Jarek Piórkowski]

On Sun, 16 Feb 2020 at 15:53, ET Commands  wrote:
> > bollard=unremovable for fixed bollards sounds good to me.
>
> My spelling check does not like "unremovable" but instead suggests
> "irremovable."  However, if I want to be nit-picky, all bollards are
> ultimately removable, so maybe more appropriate values would be
> "retractable" and "non-retractable."

Around here, many removable bollards are removed by unlocking a lock
near the ground and lifting them out manually - I'm not sure if I
would describe that as "retractable".

Others are unlocked and then can be put flat against the ground,
that's covered by "hinged" I guess but only 3 uses worldwide...
perhaps covered by "foldable" with 62 uses.

"Fixed" does sound to me more straightforward than "unremovable" though.

--Jarek

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Re: [Tagging] Unremovable bollards

[Warin]

On 16/2/20 10:29 pm, Florimond Berthoux wrote:

Hi,

Checking https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/bollard#values
unremovable is already used a lot, though irremovable is used also but 
four times less. So I guess you can document the value.

(And no tag doesn't mean unremovable of course.)

I would like to add that there's a common type in Paris "Potelet 
sécable" breakable bollard which are designed to break in two piece if 
pushed too much. [1] 
Only a small piece break, so they can be repaired quickly and for not 
much money.
They are used a lot when firemen should be able to go with their 
trucks on an pedestrian area.


No sure if those breakable bollards should be tag as 
bollard=unremovable with subtag (unremovable=breakable) or directly 
bollard=breakable.



Umm...

Bollards are there to protect people. With the present threats I would 
think identifying which bollards could be easily driven through on a 
public map/data base would be a bad idea.



So I would be firmly against the idea of the subtag value '=breakable'.






[1] http://urbaco.be/pdf/fprod/FP-BOBSEC(V1-FR).pdf 



Le sam. 15 févr. 2020 à 19:54, Hauke Stieler > a écrit :


Hi all,

there's the "bollard" key with documented value "rising" and
"removable"
[0] but I often encounter also bollards which cannot be removed
easily.
I would love to see the "unremovable" value in the documentation.
Should
I open a proposal page for this one value? That sounds a bit of an
overkill to me.

My suggestion is the value "unremovable":
A bollard which cannot be removed without destroying it or at least
cause severe damage to it. A bollard which can only be removed by
authorized people with some sort of key is still "removable".

I would not use the value "fixed" or "irremovable" for two
reasons: The
"unremovable" value is used more often [1] and would be a good
counter-value for "removable".

Hauke

[0] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:bollard
[1] https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/?key=bollard#values

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Re: [Tagging] Unremovable bollards

[Alan Mackie]

On Sun, 16 Feb 2020 at 20:54, ET Commands  wrote:

>
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2020 11:22:11 +0100
> > From: François Lacombe 
> > To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
> >       
> > Subject: Re: [Tagging] Unremovable bollards
> >
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > My 2 cts : key actuator and especially actuator=hydraulic_cyclinder or
> > pneumatic_cylinder values are suitable for movable bollards (pchtt
> > noise when bollards go up and down means actuator=pneumatic_cylinder for
> > instance)
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:actuator
> >
> > bollard=unremovable for fixed bollards sounds good to me.
> >
> > All the best
> >
> > François
>
>
> My spelling check does not like "unremovable" but instead suggests
> "irremovable."  However, if I want to be nit-picky, all bollards are
> ultimately removable, so maybe more appropriate values would be
> "retractable" and "non-retractable."
>
> Mark
>

Which brings us back to "fixed" as a nice simple description? Not easily
removable, not folding, not lifting. Fixed.
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Re: [Tagging] Unremovable bollards

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Message: 1
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2020 11:22:11 +0100
From: François Lacombe 
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"

Subject: Re: [Tagging] Unremovable bollards


Hi all,

My 2 cts : key actuator and especially actuator=hydraulic_cyclinder or
pneumatic_cylinder values are suitable for movable bollards (pchtt
noise when bollards go up and down means actuator=pneumatic_cylinder for
instance)
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:actuator

bollard=unremovable for fixed bollards sounds good to me.

All the best

François



My spelling check does not like "unremovable" but instead suggests 
"irremovable."  However, if I want to be nit-picky, all bollards are 
ultimately removable, so maybe more appropriate values would be 
"retractable" and "non-retractable."


Mark


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Re: [Tagging] Unremovable Bollards

[Peter Neale via Tagging]

I sympathise with you in your existential crisis.
I found 2 instances of "bollard=no" in te UK and found that they are next to 
each other and part of a set of 3 bollards.  The third is tagged 
"bollard=fixed".  So perhaps the 2 "bollard=no" are meant to be "bollard 
=not_fixed", or perhaps "bollard=removable", or possibly "bollard=unremovable"; 
who knows?  I might try a changeset comment and ask (politely) what the mapper 
meant.
My curiosity sparked by this, I also had a look at taginfo and found 181 
instances of "bollard=yes"  (Yes, this REALLY IS a bollard?)
Regards,Peter
 Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2020 16:04:25 +
From: Jez Nicholson 
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
    
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Unremovable bollards
Message-ID:
    
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Looking at Taginfo I'm now in an existential crisis over the 124 bollards
that are simultaneously not bollards "bollard":"no".  C'eci n'est pas
un bollard?



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Re: [Tagging] Unremovable bollards

[Volker Schmidt]

I found 106 of these in France, but it looks that that 104 of these are
indications that "there is no bollard" on highway=crossing. None of them is
tagged barrier=bollard and bollard=no.

On Sun, 16 Feb 2020 at 17:05, Jez Nicholson  wrote:

> Looking at Taginfo I'm now in an existential crisis over the 124 bollards
> that are simultaneously not bollards "bollard":"no".  C'eci n'est pas
> un bollard?
>
> On Sun, 16 Feb 2020, 11:31 Florimond Berthoux, <
> florimond.berth...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Checking https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/bollard#values
>> unremovable is already used a lot, though irremovable is used also but
>> four times less. So I guess you can document the value.
>> (And no tag doesn't mean unremovable of course.)
>>
>> I would like to add that there's a common type in Paris "Potelet sécable"
>> breakable bollard which are designed to break in two piece if pushed too
>> much. [1] 
>> Only a small piece break, so they can be repaired quickly and for not
>> much money.
>> They are used a lot when firemen should be able to go with their trucks
>> on an pedestrian area.
>>
>> No sure if those breakable bollards should be tag as bollard=unremovable
>> with subtag (unremovable=breakable) or directly bollard=breakable.
>>
>>
>> [1] http://urbaco.be/pdf/fprod/FP-BOBSEC(V1-FR).pdf
>> 
>>
>> Le sam. 15 févr. 2020 à 19:54, Hauke Stieler  a
>> écrit :
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> there's the "bollard" key with documented value "rising" and "removable"
>>> [0] but I often encounter also bollards which cannot be removed easily.
>>> I would love to see the "unremovable" value in the documentation. Should
>>> I open a proposal page for this one value? That sounds a bit of an
>>> overkill to me.
>>>
>>> My suggestion is the value "unremovable":
>>> A bollard which cannot be removed without destroying it or at least
>>> cause severe damage to it. A bollard which can only be removed by
>>> authorized people with some sort of key is still "removable".
>>>
>>> I would not use the value "fixed" or "irremovable" for two reasons: The
>>> "unremovable" value is used more often [1] and would be a good
>>> counter-value for "removable".
>>>
>>> Hauke
>>>
>>> [0] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:bollard
>>> [1] https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/?key=bollard#values
>>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Florimond Berthoux
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Re: [Tagging] Unremovable bollards

[Jez Nicholson]

Looking at Taginfo I'm now in an existential crisis over the 124 bollards
that are simultaneously not bollards "bollard":"no".  C'eci n'est pas
un bollard?

On Sun, 16 Feb 2020, 11:31 Florimond Berthoux, 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Checking https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/bollard#values
> unremovable is already used a lot, though irremovable is used also but
> four times less. So I guess you can document the value.
> (And no tag doesn't mean unremovable of course.)
>
> I would like to add that there's a common type in Paris "Potelet sécable"
> breakable bollard which are designed to break in two piece if pushed too
> much. [1] 
> Only a small piece break, so they can be repaired quickly and for not much
> money.
> They are used a lot when firemen should be able to go with their trucks on
> an pedestrian area.
>
> No sure if those breakable bollards should be tag as bollard=unremovable
> with subtag (unremovable=breakable) or directly bollard=breakable.
>
>
> [1] http://urbaco.be/pdf/fprod/FP-BOBSEC(V1-FR).pdf
> 
>
> Le sam. 15 févr. 2020 à 19:54, Hauke Stieler  a
> écrit :
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> there's the "bollard" key with documented value "rising" and "removable"
>> [0] but I often encounter also bollards which cannot be removed easily.
>> I would love to see the "unremovable" value in the documentation. Should
>> I open a proposal page for this one value? That sounds a bit of an
>> overkill to me.
>>
>> My suggestion is the value "unremovable":
>> A bollard which cannot be removed without destroying it or at least
>> cause severe damage to it. A bollard which can only be removed by
>> authorized people with some sort of key is still "removable".
>>
>> I would not use the value "fixed" or "irremovable" for two reasons: The
>> "unremovable" value is used more often [1] and would be a good
>> counter-value for "removable".
>>
>> Hauke
>>
>> [0] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:bollard
>> [1] https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/?key=bollard#values
>>
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>>
>
>
> --
> Florimond Berthoux
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Re: [Tagging] Unremovable bollards

[Florimond Berthoux]

Hi,

Checking https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/bollard#values
unremovable is already used a lot, though irremovable is used also but four
times less. So I guess you can document the value.
(And no tag doesn't mean unremovable of course.)

I would like to add that there's a common type in Paris "Potelet sécable"
breakable bollard which are designed to break in two piece if pushed too
much. [1] 
Only a small piece break, so they can be repaired quickly and for not much
money.
They are used a lot when firemen should be able to go with their trucks on
an pedestrian area.

No sure if those breakable bollards should be tag as bollard=unremovable
with subtag (unremovable=breakable) or directly bollard=breakable.


[1] http://urbaco.be/pdf/fprod/FP-BOBSEC(V1-FR).pdf


Le sam. 15 févr. 2020 à 19:54, Hauke Stieler  a
écrit :

> Hi all,
>
> there's the "bollard" key with documented value "rising" and "removable"
> [0] but I often encounter also bollards which cannot be removed easily.
> I would love to see the "unremovable" value in the documentation. Should
> I open a proposal page for this one value? That sounds a bit of an
> overkill to me.
>
> My suggestion is the value "unremovable":
> A bollard which cannot be removed without destroying it or at least
> cause severe damage to it. A bollard which can only be removed by
> authorized people with some sort of key is still "removable".
>
> I would not use the value "fixed" or "irremovable" for two reasons: The
> "unremovable" value is used more often [1] and would be a good
> counter-value for "removable".
>
> Hauke
>
> [0] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:bollard
> [1] https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/?key=bollard#values
>
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Re: [Tagging] Unremovable bollards

[François Lacombe]

Hi all,

My 2 cts : key actuator and especially actuator=hydraulic_cyclinder or
pneumatic_cylinder values are suitable for movable bollards (pchtt
noise when bollards go up and down means actuator=pneumatic_cylinder for
instance)
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:actuator

bollard=unremovable for fixed bollards sounds good to me.

All the best

François

Le sam. 15 févr. 2020 à 22:34, Volker Schmidt  a écrit :

> I have tagged around 1k bollards without "removable" or "raising", because
> they looked reasonably difficult to remove, even thought most likely nearly
> all of them are in one way or the other removable and not really fixed.
> My interpretation of the the absence of these tags has been that the
> object in question is not supposed to be removed by the normal road (or in
> my case cycle-parth) user.
> If you want to tag this fact, be aware that there are a large number of
> bollards already on the map which all would need remapping (and I certainly
> would not like to revisiting "my" bollards)
> Volker
>
> On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 at 21:33, ael  wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Feb 15, 2020 at 08:15:32PM +, John Sturdy wrote:
>> > I think that by default bollards are not removable, and that if a
>> bollard
>> > is not tagged as removable, it is reasonable to assume it's not
>> removable.
>>
>> +1
>>
>> ael
>>
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Unremovable bollards

[Volker Schmidt]

I have tagged around 1k bollards without "removable" or "raising", because
they looked reasonably difficult to remove, even thought most likely nearly
all of them are in one way or the other removable and not really fixed.
My interpretation of the the absence of these tags has been that the object
in question is not supposed to be removed by the normal road (or in my case
cycle-parth) user.
If you want to tag this fact, be aware that there are a large number of
bollards already on the map which all would need remapping (and I certainly
would not like to revisiting "my" bollards)
Volker

On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 at 21:33, ael  wrote:

> On Sat, Feb 15, 2020 at 08:15:32PM +, John Sturdy wrote:
> > I think that by default bollards are not removable, and that if a bollard
> > is not tagged as removable, it is reasonable to assume it's not
> removable.
>
> +1
>
> ael
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Unremovable bollards

[ael]

On Sat, Feb 15, 2020 at 08:15:32PM +, John Sturdy wrote:
> I think that by default bollards are not removable, and that if a bollard
> is not tagged as removable, it is reasonable to assume it's not removable.

+1

ael


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Re: [Tagging] Unremovable bollards

[Thibault Molleman]

I think that's a bad assumption to make. Could just be that nobody bothered
to tag it

On Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 21:17 John Sturdy  wrote:

> I think that by default bollards are not removable, and that if a bollard
> is not tagged as removable, it is reasonable to assume it's not removable.
>
> On Sat, Feb 15, 2020 at 6:54 PM Hauke Stieler 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> there's the "bollard" key with documented value "rising" and "removable"
>> [0] but I often encounter also bollards which cannot be removed easily.
>> I would love to see the "unremovable" value in the documentation. Should
>> I open a proposal page for this one value? That sounds a bit of an
>> overkill to me.
>>
>> My suggestion is the value "unremovable":
>> A bollard which cannot be removed without destroying it or at least
>> cause severe damage to it. A bollard which can only be removed by
>> authorized people with some sort of key is still "removable".
>>
>> I would not use the value "fixed" or "irremovable" for two reasons: The
>> "unremovable" value is used more often [1] and would be a good
>> counter-value for "removable".
>>
>> Hauke
>>
>> [0] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:bollard
>> [1] https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/?key=bollard#values
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Unremovable bollards

[Hauke Stieler]

I don't have real data to check your statement (except the mapped
bollards in OSM) but personally I don't know if that's true for all
regions. I personally have the feeling that the amount is at least equal
and in Hamburg, Germany I have the impression that more bollars are
removable then unremovable.

On 15.02.20 21:15, John Sturdy wrote:
> I think that by default bollards are not removable, and that if a
> bollard is not tagged as removable, it is reasonable to assume it's not
> removable.



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Re: [Tagging] Unremovable bollards

[Jarek Piórkowski]

On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 at 15:16, John Sturdy  wrote:
> On Sat, Feb 15, 2020 at 6:54 PM Hauke Stieler  wrote:
>> there's the "bollard" key with documented value "rising" and "removable"
>> [0] but I often encounter also bollards which cannot be removed easily.
>> I would love to see the "unremovable" value in the documentation. Should
>> I open a proposal page for this one value? That sounds a bit of an
>> overkill to me.
>
> I think that by default bollards are not removable, and that if a bollard is 
> not tagged as removable, it is reasonable to assume it's not removable.

A problem with this "null tag" interpretation is that with its
absence, it's not really possible to tell whether a bollard has been
surveyed and confirmed as non-removable, or if it hasn't been surveyed
in sufficient detail (e.g. bollard visible on satellite imagery but no
one checked on it in person).

--Jarek

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Re: [Tagging] Unremovable bollards

[John Sturdy]

I think that by default bollards are not removable, and that if a bollard
is not tagged as removable, it is reasonable to assume it's not removable.

On Sat, Feb 15, 2020 at 6:54 PM Hauke Stieler  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> there's the "bollard" key with documented value "rising" and "removable"
> [0] but I often encounter also bollards which cannot be removed easily.
> I would love to see the "unremovable" value in the documentation. Should
> I open a proposal page for this one value? That sounds a bit of an
> overkill to me.
>
> My suggestion is the value "unremovable":
> A bollard which cannot be removed without destroying it or at least
> cause severe damage to it. A bollard which can only be removed by
> authorized people with some sort of key is still "removable".
>
> I would not use the value "fixed" or "irremovable" for two reasons: The
> "unremovable" value is used more often [1] and would be a good
> counter-value for "removable".
>
> Hauke
>
> [0] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:bollard
> [1] https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/?key=bollard#values
>
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Re: [Tagging] Unremovable bollards

[Thibault Molleman]

Yeah, Also noticed that when mapping bollards. I'd vote on such a proposal
yeah 
Not sure if proposals are needed for changes this small. But I'd love to
hear other people's feedback as well yeah


On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 at 19:54, Hauke Stieler  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> there's the "bollard" key with documented value "rising" and "removable"
> [0] but I often encounter also bollards which cannot be removed easily.
> I would love to see the "unremovable" value in the documentation. Should
> I open a proposal page for this one value? That sounds a bit of an
> overkill to me.
>
> My suggestion is the value "unremovable":
> A bollard which cannot be removed without destroying it or at least
> cause severe damage to it. A bollard which can only be removed by
> authorized people with some sort of key is still "removable".
>
> I would not use the value "fixed" or "irremovable" for two reasons: The
> "unremovable" value is used more often [1] and would be a good
> counter-value for "removable".
>
> Hauke
>
> [0] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:bollard
> [1] https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/?key=bollard#values
>
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