Re: [Tagging] informal helipads for emergency use
On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 6:59 AM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: aeroway=helipad name=Fred's LZ access=no emergency=yes surface=grass Seems reasonable to me, and useful. I think what's really being mapped is the *designation* by an emergency authority. Which makes this information exactly equivalent to any other designation that we include, including protected areas, road designations, land zones, etc. If we follow your logic, anyone crossing a grassland with his 4WD can map his route with highway=track+access=no as soon as he's doing it with the aggrement of the landowner even if there is no evidence of any track on the ground. Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] informal helipads for emergency use
On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 7:21 AM, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net wrote: i'm thinking both areas and nodes, with tagging that looks something like this: aeroway=helipad name=Fred's LZ access=no emergency=yes surface=grass does this seem reasonable? Seems reasonable to me, and useful. Maybe an operator=*? There are plenty of things less verifiable and less on the ground that get mapped - place=locality comes to mind. FWIW, I noticed recently that some 4wd maps I've been using have helipads marked, deep in national parks. I'm not sure if their intended use is for emergencies (evacuation points for bushfires, perhaps) or for loading/unloading supplies. In some areas they're pretty common - every 10km or so. Btw, some objections below complain that this would be mapping agreements with landholders. I think what's really being mapped is the *designation* by an emergency authority. Which makes this information exactly equivalent to any other designation that we include, including protected areas, road designations, land zones, etc. Steve ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] informal helipads for emergency use
On 3/30/13 5:43 PM, Anthony DiPierro wrote: The question is whether or not these contracts are. Are they written? Are they public? I have my doubts about both of these. But let's get some examples so we can discuss it. i am researching this. what i am gathering is that some years back (probably when e911 came into play), management of these moved into the hands of county wide dispatch organizations and the volunteers don't know much about how things work these days. when i have a chance to talk to the folks running dispatch i'll learn more. You could also see an actual helicopter land there in case of an emergency ;-) Surely not every place where a medevac helicopter ever lands is considered something that should be tagged. They land in fields, they land on highways, they land in parking lots. Which, if any, of these should be mapped? the ones that i would argue should be mapped are the ones that are are designated by the dispatch organization as the standard ones. yes, they sometimes use fields, highways and parking lots on a pickup basis. those should not be mapped, as they are usually one time situations. On the other hand, most of the boundaries we have in OSM are not more verifiable than this data. Not sure which boundaries you're talking about, but the CDPs in the US probably shouldn't be in OSM. i agree on CDPs, they aren't actually helping any, just confusing people. just a place name at the rough center of the hamlets is appropriate, not a fake border for a non-existent administrative entity. richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] informal helipads for emergency use
On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 1:58 AM, Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com wrote: I think Richard's use of informal may be confusing. These places are not constructed to helipad standards. But they are designated in writing and shared between the local Fire Department/etc. and the medevac service. Something unverifiable on the ground. What you describe is just a contract between an organization and a landowner. And who will need this information excepted the organization and the landowner ? It's not because an information is available that it has to go into OSM. But I see a similar issue about informal car parks. In the countryside, you can park your car potentially everywhere when it's not forbidden. It is not a reason to tag such places with amenity=parking. Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] informal helipads for emergency use
2013/3/30 Pieren pier...@gmail.com Something unverifiable on the ground. What you describe is just a contract between an organization and a landowner. well, a contract is in many circumstances verifiable. You could also see an actual helicopter land there in case of an emergency ;-) On the other hand, most of the boundaries we have in OSM are not more verifiable than this data. IMHO verifiable on the ground should be interpreted as verifiable, e.g. if a road has a certain name, but the signs on the spot have a spelling error: in this case the name of the osm element should be the actual name as verifiable in the city archives, and not the misspelled name on the sign (or put both variants in OSM, and a note, but do put the actual correctly spelled name as well, even if it doesn't result from on the ground survey). cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] informal helipads for emergency use
Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com writes: 2013/3/30 Pieren pier...@gmail.com Something unverifiable on the ground. What you describe is just a contract between an organization and a landowner. well, a contract is in many circumstances verifiable. You could also see an actual helicopter land there in case of an emergency ;-) On the other hand, most of the boundaries we have in OSM are not more verifiable than this data. IMHO verifiable on the ground should be interpreted as verifiable, e.g. if a road has a certain name, but the signs on the spot have a spelling error: in this case the name of the osm element should be the actual name as verifiable in the city archives, and not the misspelled name on the sign (or put both variants in OSM, and a note, but do put the actual correctly spelled name as well, even if it doesn't result from on the ground survey). I agree with Martin here. I think that the broad notion of verifiability makes sense, but we've evolved that into a crisp line and treated the edge of that line as very meaningful. The LZ situation is not so different from streets that have names but for which the signs are missing. In my town many people (the subset that pay attention to police/fire/emergency_management) know where the LZs are, at least the more-used subset. The countryside car parking analogy here is that the Incident Commander might decide to use anyplace feasible for a medevac landing. So I agree that tagging might be used would be goofy. I have tagged some areas as parking when they are near trailheads and commonly used for parking - because I see it happening. But that's a long way from anyplace it's legal to leave a car. There's a larger issue, which isn't really about tagging, which is that this is an opportunity to grow the community. In my town, the public safety officials know the ham radio volunteers and the medical reserve corp volunteers. It's not a stretch to think of mappers as part of that community, ensuring that maps will be already up to date when something happens. This is in fact what Richard is doing. That can be existing mappers joining that local emergency planning community, or existing emergency management people getting into mapping, or both. That kind of community building is overwhelmingly more important than quibbling over the appropriateness of what will turn out in my town (of ~40 km^2) to be a half dozen nodes with tags that don't hit the normal render, in the middle of open spaces (that might have enclosing polygons of at least 0.5 ha, but not a lot of detail inside, because there isn't actually detail on the ground for the non-LZ use). If there are local stewards, we should let them do things that aren't clearly unreasonable locally. (I agree that it's reasonable to hold people making global- or regional-scale changes to a higher standard.) pgpmElptrV9mx.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] informal helipads for emergency use
On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 6:47 AM, Stephan Knauss o...@stephans-server.de wrote: Could it be stored inside the emergency key? so leave away the aeroway and store as emergency=helipad? Since it is informal and applies to level grassy areas, what will be tagged is just an arrangement with the landowner. Because informal helipads can be everywhere ... I would say that such information should be moved to a separate dataset and not in OSM. Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] informal helipads for emergency use
[First, I understand what you mean, and what you're trying to do. My town certainly has places like this for medevac helicopters.] I think this information clearly does belong in OSM. It's a fact about the real world, and it's easy to verify. But, I don't think they are helipads. It might be good to call them aeroway=medevac_landing_zone because while there is an access for emergency notion, what you proposed would propertly apply to something that is constructed as a proper helipad and in FAA databases, etc, but just allowed for emergency use only. (I know you know this:) A LZ is really just a place that's not for aviation but which is prearranged to use if necessary. Stephan's point that these should not show up as helipads on normal maps is valid; they should show up as medevac landing zones on maps that want to show landing zones. Presumably the same maps would show water sources and hydrants. pgp84UPJhoqjX.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] informal helipads for emergency use
Pieren pier...@gmail.com writes: On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 6:47 AM, Stephan Knauss o...@stephans-server.de wrote: Could it be stored inside the emergency key? so leave away the aeroway and store as emergency=helipad? Since it is informal and applies to level grassy areas, what will be tagged is just an arrangement with the landowner. Because informal helipads can be everywhere ... I would say that such information should be moved to a separate dataset and not in OSM. I think Richard's use of informal may be confusing. These places are not constructed to helipad standards. But they are designated in writing and shared between the local Fire Department/etc. and the medevac service. Probably there is a written memorandum of understanding between the fire department and the landowner. So the arrangement to use is plenty formal; it's the facility which is not constructed to standards. pgpoVSjxM78zc.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] informal helipads for emergency use
Hi Richard, On 28.03.2013 21:21, Richard Welty wrote: in rural areas, these are predetermined locations for helicopters to set down to airlift out urgent medical cases. they are not generally official helipads, just level grassy areas where they have arrangements with the landowner. generally they also have agreed upon names. aeroway=helipad name=Fred's LZ access=no emergency=yes surface=grass does this seem reasonable? This rendering would cause all maps which do not evaluate your special tagging to show up a helipad at these locations. I have no problem with some special case tagging. But I prefer it in a way in which only software evaluating these special cases also renders it. Make the default case easy. All applications following your idea and creating special purpose maps can evaluate more tags. But you can't request every data consumer world-wide to know that your new tag is not a helipad in the established way but something else, just because it has some additional tags which had not been used in this context before. Could it be stored inside the emergency key? so leave away the aeroway and store as emergency=helipad? Stephan ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
