Re: [Tagging] issues with the list of deprecated features

[Michael Booth]

Sorry, but bed_and_breakfast is not tagged in the "hundreds and 
thousands" - it is in fact used less than 700 times worldwide (about 300 
in the UK, including 10% of the total in one town alone!). And if you 
look at the tag history graph you'll see it has never been above 750 at 
any point.


This compares to guest_house which now has 114k uses (was 38k when B 
was deprecated four years ago). It looks like the guest_house definition 
includes B so there doesn't seem to be any point in having another 
top level tag value. Most of the objects I've looked at can easily be 
retagged as guest_house, plus quite a few are from the early days of OSM 
before this tag consensus appeared.


On 15/10/2018 09:57, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

10. tourism=bed_and_breakfast
The suggested alternative is 
"tourism=guest_house+guest_house=bed_and_breakfast"
Every time a deprecated tag should be replaced by a tag which is so 
unspecific that people have seen to need to add subtags in order to 
express what it is (on the same level of specificity as the tag that 
should be deprecated), there is some problem. People know what is a 
bed and breakfast, the tag it in the hundreds and thousands despite it 
being discouraged and flagged as deprecated. Wouldn't it be easier to 
accept tourism=bed_and_breakfast, or are there other issues with this tag?


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Re: [Tagging] issues with the list of deprecated features

[Georg Feddern]

Am 15.10.2018 um 16:38 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:



Am Mo., 15. Okt. 2018 um 14:21 Uhr schrieb Tom Pfeifer 
mailto:t.pfei...@computer.org>>:


On 15.10.2018 10:57, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> 3. amenity=creche and amenity=nursery
> For both tags amenity=kindergarten is suggested as alternative
tagging, which seems clearly wrong
> (kindergarten is usually for ages 3-6 while these tags are for
ages 0-3).

I thought the consensus was here that it depends on the country.
In Germany, I see mostly the "Kita"
(Kindertagesstätte) structure which in the same institution enrols
age 0-6 in different departments
or groups, and a lot offer afterschool supervision (Hort).
This is easily expressed with the min_age + max_age tag, and some
folks use after_school=yes.



For the German situation, KiTa and Hort should/could well be tagged 
with childcare, but "Krippe"? And if we decide to tag a Krippe 
(creche/nursery) the same as a Hort or KiTa, but with age tags, isn't 
that inconsistent with Kindergarten? From my point of view, Hort and 
KiTa are both childcare places which extend beyond the times of 
kindergarten and school (and are after those, typically), while a 
Krippe is for babies up to 3 years and is more like a Kindergarten, 
apart from the age. It would really be much more logical and easier to 
introduce / accept nurseries (there's a reason there is a specific 
term for this in language, no?), then throw most but not all of 
"child-related-stuff" in the same cauldron where you will have to dig 
for age group and other specfic tags in order to make sense of it.


There is always a reason having a specific term for different parts of 
childcare - it is simply easier to talk about a Krippe(nursery), 
Kindergarten, Hort(after school club) instead of a childcare with 
age_group 0-3, 4-6, 7-14.
And it is quite logical to take these terms as tags - in the first 
attempt 
But is it really easier to end up with three different amenities - and 
so with different POIs - for a childcare which enrols all age groups?
Nevertheless the min or max age sometimes differs at the same sort of 
institution - so you may look e. g. after a hort but still have to check 
for the valid age anyway.
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Re: [Tagging] issues with the list of deprecated features

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mo., 15. Okt. 2018 um 13:55 Uhr schrieb Lionel Giard <
lionel.gi...@gmail.com>:

>
> For tourism=* tag, for me, it is just a method to not tag each artwork
> with "tourism=attraction" i would suppose (as they are probably all an
> attraction), while a parliament *could *be a tourism=attraction, while
> another part of it (or another parliament building) is of no particular
> touristic value !
>


I am pretty sure it is the opposite way: all parliaments (or almost) are
tourist attractions, but most public art isn't. Just a few examples of
things that can undoubtfully (I think?) be considered artwork, and are
clearly no tourist attractions. And these are even sculptures set up by the
government at prominent places, not graffiti informally applied under dark
bridges or something like this.
https://www.mapillary.com/app/?lat=41.860526=12.4981104=17=8MF90bV-hB3dm6WKADz20Q=photo=0.1997206436619774=0.58040952107982=1.747553574261222
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8609864,12.4858747,3a,75y,47.62h,96.46t/data=!3m5!1e1!3m3!1s_Q0AICeKMXgcdHMkGp18Rg!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3D_Q0AICeKMXgcdHMkGp18Rg%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D92.65221%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8620511,12.4776334,3a,20.1y,102.9h,88.2t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLf6XhgDVItqmeVsigDfrUQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8365953,12.4692321,3a,33y,277.26h,100.23t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sOYjD7uTzNA68OPjgQJiIlg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8226411,12.465383,3a,60.7y,353.96h,106.56t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLV51ZinWzmMAMA0_-FVYCQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192



Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] issues with the list of deprecated features

[Mateusz Konieczny]

15. Oct 2018 12:27 by dieterdre...@gmail.com :


>> I am not sure how it changes that we ended with tourism-artwork as a 
>> standard.
>>
>> Also, "has nothing at all" is not true. Artworks are quite likely to be a 
>> tourism attractions.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> following this argument, we would have to tag the national parliaments as 
> tourism=parliament because they are quite likely tourism attractions.




I never said that it is a good idea, just that  "has nothing at all" is not 
true.




And now I am scared to check how parliaments are tagged, I would not be 
surprised by

tourism=parliament.
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Re: [Tagging] issues with the list of deprecated features

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mo., 15. Okt. 2018 um 14:21 Uhr schrieb Tom Pfeifer <
t.pfei...@computer.org>:

> On 15.10.2018 10:57, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> > 3. amenity=creche and amenity=nursery
> > For both tags amenity=kindergarten is suggested as alternative tagging,
> which seems clearly wrong
> > (kindergarten is usually for ages 3-6 while these tags are for ages
> 0-3).
>
> I thought the consensus was here that it depends on the country. In
> Germany, I see mostly the "Kita"
> (Kindertagesstätte) structure which in the same institution enrols age 0-6
> in different departments
> or groups, and a lot offer afterschool supervision (Hort).
> This is easily expressed with the min_age + max_age tag, and some folks
> use after_school=yes.



For the German situation, KiTa and Hort should/could well be tagged with
childcare, but "Krippe"? And if we decide to tag a Krippe (creche/nursery)
the same as a Hort or KiTa, but with age tags, isn't that inconsistent with
Kindergarten? From my point of view, Hort and KiTa are both childcare
places which extend beyond the times of kindergarten and school (and are
after those, typically), while a Krippe is for babies up to 3 years and is
more like a Kindergarten, apart from the age. It would really be much more
logical and easier to introduce / accept nurseries (there's a reason there
is a specific term for this in language, no?), then throw most but not all
of "child-related-stuff" in the same cauldron where you will have to dig
for age group and other specfic tags in order to make sense of it.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] issues with the list of deprecated features

[Tom Pfeifer]

On 15.10.2018 10:57, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

3. amenity=creche and amenity=nursery
For both tags amenity=kindergarten is suggested as alternative tagging, which seems clearly wrong 
(kindergarten is usually for ages 3-6 while these tags are for ages 0-3). 


I thought the consensus was here that it depends on the country. In Germany, I see mostly the "Kita" 
(Kindertagesstätte) structure which in the same institution enrols age 0-6 in different departments 
or groups, and a lot offer afterschool supervision (Hort).

This is easily expressed with the min_age + max_age tag, and some folks use 
after_school=yes.

tom

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Re: [Tagging] issues with the list of deprecated features

[Lionel Giard]

>
> I am not sure how it changes that we ended with tourism-artwork as a
>> standard.
>>
>> Also, "has nothing at all" is not true. Artworks are quite likely to be a
>> tourism attractions.
>>
>>
>
>
> following this argument, we would have to tag the national parliaments as
> tourism=parliament because they are quite likely tourism attractions.
>

For tourism=* tag, for me, it is just a method to not tag each artwork with
"tourism=attraction" i would suppose (as they are probably all an
attraction), while a parliament *could *be a tourism=attraction, while
another part of it (or another parliament building) is of no particular
touristic value !

The tourism=attraction is more the general way of tagging a touristic
attraction while, the specific tourism=* values are for things that are all
an attraction !

BTW, another thing potentially using this "tourism=artwork" tag are
statues. They have two existing tagging scheme : one using the
"tourism=artwork + artwork_type=statue" and another using the
"historic=memorial" + "memorial=statue". I understood it as the "memorial
statues" have historic values and was another scheme already, but they can
still be an attraction for tourism ! Nothing is easy ahah :p

3. amenity=creche and amenity=nursery
> For both tags amenity=kindergarten is suggested as alternative tagging,
> which seems clearly wrong (kindergarten is usually for ages 3-6 while these
> tags are for ages 0-3). There is also the suggestion for amenity=childcare,
> which is featured by iD presets, but which doesn't seem like a great idea,
> because it partly overlaps with the much more used amenity=kindergarten,
> and because it has a very generic meaning and can be used for any place
> that looks after "young children" (i.e. also after school places,
> nurseries, kindergartens, places in shops that take care of the kids for a
> few minutes, etc.) and the wiki states it is controversial.
>

For the amenity=creche..., in Belgium, we use the "amenity=childcare" for
an equivalent to "creche/nursery". It is a defined tag on the wiki (
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dchildcare ). I think, the
usage still depend on the country. ;-)
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Re: [Tagging] issues with the list of deprecated features

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mo., 15. Okt. 2018 um 12:20 Uhr schrieb Mateusz Konieczny <
matkoni...@tutanota.com>:

> 15. Oct 2018 10:57 by dieterdre...@gmail.com:
>
> 1. amenity=artwork
> Yes, tourism=artwork is the established tagging, but it has issues:
> artwork has nothing at all to do with tourism
>
> As I understand you - in your opinion it would be preferable to end with
> amenity=artwork as a
> preferred tagging.
>


yes




>
> I am not sure how it changes that we ended with tourism-artwork as a
> standard.
>
> Also, "has nothing at all" is not true. Artworks are quite likely to be a
> tourism attractions.
>
>


following this argument, we would have to tag the national parliaments as
tourism=parliament because they are quite likely tourism attractions.




> 2. amenity=car_repair
> For businesses offering car repair, this isn't the right tag (shop is),
> but it doesn't mean there can't be an amenity=car_repair for place where
> you can repair your car.
>
> Feel free to add that deprecation applies to businesses.
>
> Though most of amenity=car_repair would be still businesses offering car
> repair, if you want to tag something like that it would be preferable to
> find a new tag.
>


agree, this was one of the less questionable deprecations.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] issues with the list of deprecated features

[Mateusz Konieczny]

15. Oct 2018 10:57 by dieterdre...@gmail.com :


> 1. amenity=artwork
> Yes, tourism=artwork is the established tagging, but it has issues: artwork 
> has nothing at all to do with tourism
>



As I understand you - in your opinion it would be preferable to end with 
amenity=artwork as a 
preferred tagging.
I am not sure how it changes that we ended with tourism-artwork as a standard.


Also, "has nothing at all" is not true. Artworks are quite likely to be a 
tourism attractions.


 

> 2. amenity=car_repair
> For businesses offering car repair, this isn't the right tag (shop is), but 
> it doesn't mean there can't be an amenity=car_repair for place where you can 
> repair your car.




Feel free to add that deprecation applies to businesses.

Though most of amenity=car_repair would be still businesses offering car 
repair, if you want to tag

something like that it would be preferable to find a new tag.

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