Re: [Tagging] motorcar definition changed recently

[SelfishSeahorse]

On Wed, 3 Oct 2018 at 11:33, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
>
> I have tried to fix the picture and found, that there are now 2 distinct 
> traffic signs, one is for all 2-tracked motor vehicles, including cars:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_signs_in_Germany#/media/File:Zeichen_251_-_Verbot_für_Kraftwagen_und_sonstige_mehrspurige_Kraftfahrzeuge,_StVO_1992.svg
>
> The other is explicitly for motorcars (those for the transport of up to 8 
> people, including the driver):
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_signs_in_Germany#/media/File:Zeichen_257-55_-_Verbot_f%C3%BCr_Personenkraftwagen,_StVO_2017.svg

臘

Is anyone aware of other countries where these two traffic signs with
their different meanings are in use?

> How are we going to distinguish these?

We probably cannot avoid defining two new keys, for example car=* and
double_tracked_motor_vehicle=*, and discouraging motorcar=* because of
its ambiguity ¬(motorcar=yes) ≠ (motorcar=no). Then, motorcar=yes can
be converted to car=yes and motorcar=no to
double_tracked_motor_vehicle=no.

In the meantime, i advise everyone to tag 'no entry for any power
driven vehicle except two-wheeled motor cycles without side-car' signs
unambiguously motor_vehicle=no + motorcycle=yes (+ moped=yes/mofa=yes
if not counted as motorcycle).

Regards
Markus

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Re: [Tagging] motorcar definition changed recently

[Allroads]

It is time to give this twofold meaning a split, into two separate keys.
Within openstreetmap it can not have a twofold meaning!

The law in many countries also speaks of double tracked or more then two 
wheels.


It is clear to me the new key must be double_tracked_motor_vehicle or short, 
dt_motor_vehicle, or else, give it a better name.

Allready, fitted in the access hierarchy. With a OSM icon (front car)
As explained here:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:motorcar
All description and structure already indicate that a split has to be done!


(includes all double-tracked motorised vehicles when used as restriction) 
this must be removed.

It is unworkable. It is a monster. motorcar=no, meaning else.
So many key conditions have to be investigated to find out what is meant by 
motorcar. if and or...is.


I am working on a JOSM  test style to express the access on highway and 
barriers in the road.
For control/check reasons, better to see a icon then watch the written key, 
get the hint, that's why we make maps, make it more understandable.

http://mijndev.openstreetmap.nl/~allroads/JOSM/Styles/Road_extended_JOSM_style_info.html

A key must have one meaning.  If not, it is almost impossible to express the 
access for one type of vehicle. Where can I ride or drive, where not, where 
conditional. Why could I not router there.
Test site: 
http://mijndev.openstreetmap.nl/~allroads/mtmworld/?map=agriculturalways=14=49.79228=6.77223=B0FFTTTF

Also working on a preset. Translating law to tags.
There must be one more hierarchy step, in the lineup to motorcar.
We make it hard for ourselves to deal with this developmental error, 
motorcar two meaning.
Despite, what people give as a meaning to motorcar, Openstreetmap have to 
choose, one meaning, give the others a other key.


Working on this style/site, translating traffic law to keys/value, more keys 
are needed.

single_tracked_vehicle,
non motorized vehicles, what keyname, see disabled vehicles. Small groups, 
maybe they have more benefits than others.

A better hierarchy structure is needed.

So the definition have to be changed once again.

Regards
Allroads




From: SelfishSeahorse
Sent: Wednesday, October 3, 2018 10:03 AM
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
Subject: Re: [Tagging] motorcar definition changed recently

On Mon, 3 Sep 2018 at 17:58, Martin Koppenhoefer  
wrote:


Thank you, I have now reverted the change wrt to motorcar.


I've also reverted the change on the page
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:motorcar and tried to make the
different meanings of that tag when either used as permission or
restriction clearer.

Regards
Markus

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Re: [Tagging] motorcar definition changed recently

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

I have tried to fix the picture and found, that there are now 2 distinct
traffic signs, one is for all 2-tracked motor vehicles, including cars:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_signs_in_Germany#/media/File:Zeichen_251_-_Verbot_für_Kraftwagen_und_sonstige_mehrspurige_Kraftfahrzeuge,_StVO_1992.svg


The other is explicitly for motorcars (those for the transport of up to 8
people, including the driver):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_signs_in_Germany#/media/File:Zeichen_257-55_-_Verbot_f%C3%BCr_Personenkraftwagen,_StVO_2017.svg

How are we going to distinguish these?

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] motorcar definition changed recently

[SelfishSeahorse]

On Mon, 3 Sep 2018 at 17:58, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
>
> Thank you, I have now reverted the change wrt to motorcar.

I've also reverted the change on the page
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:motorcar and tried to make the
different meanings of that tag when either used as permission or
restriction clearer.

Regards
Markus

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Re: [Tagging] motorcar definition changed recently

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-09-03 9:36 GMT+02:00 SelfishSeahorse :

> The meaning of the motorcar key has been discussed some time ago with the
> conclusion that motorcar=no means 'no entry for any power driven vehicle
> except two-wheeled motor cycles without side-car', while motorcar=yes only
> means that motorcars are allowed. (Unfortunately i couldn't find the
> discussion yet.)
>
> So yes, i think the change should be reverted.
>


Thank you, I have now reverted the change wrt to motorcar. At second
thought, I added a short sentence about motorcar implications for other
double tracked motorized vehicles in restrictions, feel free to improve
this.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] motorcar definition changed recently

[SelfishSeahorse]

Here's the weblink to Simon's explanation of motorcar=yes vs motorcar=no
from the past discussion:

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2017-November/034208.html

(The corresponding thread about a special road barrier started here:
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2017-November/thread.html#34194
)

On Mon, 3 Sep 2018 09:36 SelfishSeahorse,  wrote:

> The meaning of the motorcar key has been discussed some time ago with the
> conclusion that motorcar=no means 'no entry for any power driven vehicle
> except two-wheeled motor cycles without side-car', while motorcar=yes only
> means that motorcars are allowed. (Unfortunately i couldn't find the
> discussion yet.)
>
> So yes, i think the change should be reverted.
>
> Regards
> Markus
>
> On Sun, 2 Sep 2018 23:14 Martin Koppenhoefer, 
> wrote:
>
>> OMG the Germans have overtaken the wiki. I just noticed this change to
>> the motorcar access definition:
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key%3Aaccess=revision=1601167=1598869
>>
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:motorcar=next=1532406
>>
>>
>> I used motorcar to mean automobile in the past, although most of the time
>> the restrictions were more general. motorcar=no meant probably also hgv=no,
>> but in access=no & motorcar=yes I don’t think that hgv=yes is implied.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Martin
>>
>
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Re: [Tagging] motorcar definition changed recently

[SelfishSeahorse]

The meaning of the motorcar key has been discussed some time ago with the
conclusion that motorcar=no means 'no entry for any power driven vehicle
except two-wheeled motor cycles without side-car', while motorcar=yes only
means that motorcars are allowed. (Unfortunately i couldn't find the
discussion yet.)

So yes, i think the change should be reverted.

Regards
Markus

On Sun, 2 Sep 2018 23:14 Martin Koppenhoefer, 
wrote:

> OMG the Germans have overtaken the wiki. I just noticed this change to the
> motorcar access definition:
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key%3Aaccess=revision=1601167=1598869
>
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:motorcar=next=1532406
>
>
> I used motorcar to mean automobile in the past, although most of the time
> the restrictions were more general. motorcar=no meant probably also hgv=no,
> but in access=no & motorcar=yes I don’t think that hgv=yes is implied.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
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Re: [Tagging] motorcar definition changed recently

[Warin]

On 03/09/18 10:25, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:



sent from a phone

On 3. Sep 2018, at 01:36, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> wrote:


"In the Vienna Convention on Road Signs and_Signals 
 
the symbol that depicts a (passenger) car 
 -either from the 
front or the side- is also used to describe the wider category of 
vehicles, as in most countries that follow the Vienna Convention. A 
separate sign that prohibits use especially for passenger cars is not 
included in the Vienna Convention and is also absent in the 
legislation of most joining European countries (absent in 19 of the 
20 countries



the access classes are used for many different things, not just access 
to roads and not just specific restrictions with *=no, there can also 
be exclusive restrictions (e.g. nobody except motorcars, so to exclude 
motorcycles, hgv, bikes, etc. in one go) where motorcar=yes is used.




Looks like the changes were made in April by Multimodall.

As I say .. not a tag I use. My usual things exclude all motor vehicles 
.. so I don't have that problem.


How many cases are there where cars only are evident? i.e. where hgv, 
trucks motorcycles, side-cars, tractors and mopeds are not effected?

While they may exist in the data base .. are they not really motor_vehicle?
I don't know.. will have a look locally
Ok .. they all look like they should be motor_vehicle not motorcar!!!
Thanks .. I'll change all these here to motor_vehicle.

Perhaps the wiki page for motorcar should suggest the use of motor_vehicle.

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Re: [Tagging] motorcar definition changed recently

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 3. Sep 2018, at 01:36, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> "In the Vienna Convention on Road   Signs and_Signals the symbol that 
> depicts a (passenger) car -either from the front or the side- is also used to 
> describe the wider category of vehicles, as in most countries that follow the 
> Vienna Convention. A separate sign that prohibits use especially for 
> passenger cars is not included in the Vienna Convention and is also absent in 
> the legislation of most joining European countries (absent in 19 of the 20 
> countries


the access classes are used for many different things, not just access to roads 
and not just specific restrictions with *=no, there can also be exclusive 
restrictions (e.g. nobody except motorcars, so to exclude motorcycles, hgv, 
bikes, etc. in one go) where motorcar=yes is used.

Cheers,
Martin ___
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Re: [Tagging] motorcar definition changed recently

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 3. Sep 2018, at 01:36, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> When  you look at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:motorcar 
> it has some details that make the change possibly valid ...


hm. After 10+ years of all mappers tagging according to the same definition 
someone comes along and says the meaning of the tag must change to something 
different (broader), and he changes it. Why didn’t he introduce a new tag for 
the different class he needs?

I don’t know why you believe cars aren’t dealt with in legislation, at least in 
Germany (Personenkraftwagen) and in Italy they are defined as vehicle classes 
in the law, but I would expect the situation in many countries to be analogous.

Cheers,
Martin ___
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Re: [Tagging] motorcar definition changed recently

[Warin]

On 03/09/18 07:13, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
OMG the Germans have overtaken the wiki. I just noticed this change to 
the motorcar access definition:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key%3Aaccess=revision=1601167=1598869

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:motorcar=next=1532406


I used motorcar to mean automobile in the past, although most of the 
time the restrictions were more general. motorcar=no meant probably 
also hgv=no, but in access=no & motorcar=yes I don’t think that 
hgv=yes is implied.




I don't use it. Ands I don't think I've seen it .. the motor_vehicle is 
the one I use and see.
Look at the wiki pages for these values shows motor_vehicle is ~3 times 
more frequent in the data base than motorcar.


When  you look at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:motorcar
it has some details that make the change possibly valid ...

"In the Vienna Convention on Road Signs and_Signals 
 
the symbol that depicts a (passenger) car 
 -either from the front 
or the side- is also used to describe the wider category of vehicles, as 
in most countries that follow the Vienna Convention. A separate sign 
that prohibits use especially for passenger cars is not included in the 
Vienna Convention and is also absent in the legislation of most joining 
European countries (absent in 19 of the 20 countries listed in this 
overview  )."
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