Re: [Tagging] musical_instrument tag for publicly available musical instruments

[Thilo Haug OSM]

perhaps

musical_instrument:usage=

?

Am 30.04.2018 um 11:22 schrieb Marc Gemis:
> Besides the arguments from Martin,
>
> how do you differentiate the "rental" in a bar, where you can only
> play on the instrument, and not take it away from the room/building
> from a real rental company that deliver instruments to play somewhere
> else ?
>
>> musical_instrument:sales=*
>> musical_instrument:rental=*
>> musical_instrument:repair=*
>> musical_instrument:parts=*
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dmusical_instrument
>>
>> I case of the bars,
>> it could be
>> amenity=bar
>> musical_instrument:rental=piano
>> fee:piao=no @ customers
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:fee
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Re: [Tagging] musical_instrument tag for publicly available musical instruments

[Marc Gemis]

Besides the arguments from Martin,

how do you differentiate the "rental" in a bar, where you can only
play on the instrument, and not take it away from the room/building
from a real rental company that deliver instruments to play somewhere
else ?

> musical_instrument:sales=*
> musical_instrument:rental=*
> musical_instrument:repair=*
> musical_instrument:parts=*
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dmusical_instrument
>
> I case of the bars,
> it could be
> amenity=bar
> musical_instrument:rental=piano
> fee:piao=no @ customers
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:fee

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Re: [Tagging] musical_instrument tag for publicly available musical instruments

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-04-29 11:15 GMT+02:00 Thilo Haug OSM :

> I case of the bars,
>
> it could be
> amenity=bar
> musical_instrument:rental=piano
> fee:piao=no @ customers
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:fee
>


this seems bad tagging, as "renting" necessarily implies paying a fee, so
fee=no would be contradicting with the general meaning of the other tag.

On a sidenote, when you use conditional tagging you should use a
conditional tagging key, e.g. fee:piano:conditional=no @ customers, and
usually you should also tag the default case fee:piano=*

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] musical_instrument tag for publicly available musical instruments

[Jo]

- tag one of them as area, position the other as node inside the other

2018-04-30 11:00 GMT+02:00 Marc Gemis :

> On Sun, Apr 29, 2018 at 10:36 AM, José G Moya Y. 
> wrote:
> > I think this is a good idea, but, in the suggestion of Thorsten, I find
> > problematic the use of "access=" tag when instruments are in a bar.
> Imagine
> > a bar with a private piano is tagged as a point:
> >
> > amenity=bar
> > amenity=musical_instrument
> > musical_instrument=piano
> > access=private
>
> how can you add to amenities to 1 node without using e.g. a semi-colon ?
> so you have
>
> amenity=bar;musical_instrument
>
> Semi-colons in tags such as amenity and leisure (and other "main"
> tags) will often cause problems with the other tags. The reason is, as
> you pointed out, one does not know to which amenity or leisure the
> other tags applies.
>
> There are several solutions possible (depending on the case)
>
> - tag them as separate points (not a good idea here, as 1 is in the other)
> - tag one of them as area, position the other as node inside the other
> - another tagging scheme
>
> regards
>
> m.
>
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Re: [Tagging] musical_instrument tag for publicly available musical instruments

[Marc Gemis]

On Sun, Apr 29, 2018 at 10:36 AM, José G Moya Y.  wrote:
> I think this is a good idea, but, in the suggestion of Thorsten, I find
> problematic the use of "access=" tag when instruments are in a bar. Imagine
> a bar with a private piano is tagged as a point:
>
> amenity=bar
> amenity=musical_instrument
> musical_instrument=piano
> access=private

how can you add to amenities to 1 node without using e.g. a semi-colon ?
so you have

amenity=bar;musical_instrument

Semi-colons in tags such as amenity and leisure (and other "main"
tags) will often cause problems with the other tags. The reason is, as
you pointed out, one does not know to which amenity or leisure the
other tags applies.

There are several solutions possible (depending on the case)

- tag them as separate points (not a good idea here, as 1 is in the other)
- tag one of them as area, position the other as node inside the other
- another tagging scheme

regards

m.

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Re: [Tagging] musical_instrument tag for publicly available musical instruments

[José G Moya Y .]

Yes, but how do you know you are tagging the right area? My gps has a error
of +-5 metres, more when indoors. And no one goes to a bar at 2 am and
starts asking drunk people to go away in order to measure its perimeter.

El dom., 29 de abril de 2018 12:02, <osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au>
escribió:

> Obviously, you would have to use a separate node inside the area that is
> tagged as the bar to tag the piano…
>
>
>
> If you want to go into this much detail about what’s inside the bar (or
> anything else for that matter), tagging the area and then putting things
> inside it is much more manageable then trying to tag everything on a single
> node.
>
>
>
> In that regards it’s the same as tagging e.g. a café inside a bookshop.
>
>
>
> *From:* José G Moya Y. <josem...@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Sunday, 29 April 2018 18:37
> *To:* Tag discussion, strategy and related tools <
> tagging@openstreetmap.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Tagging] musical_instrument tag for publicly available
> musical instruments
>
>
>
> I think this is a good idea, but, in the suggestion of Thorsten, I find
> problematic the use of "access=" tag when instruments are in a bar. Imagine
> a bar with a private piano is tagged as a point:
>
>
>
> amenity=bar
>
> amenity=musical_instrument
>
> musical_instrument=piano
>
> access=private
>
>
>
> It does not make clear if either access to bar or access to piano is
> private.
>
>
>
> Also, since bars are amenities, a duplicate "amenity" tag arises. You have
> to either put two points or tag the bar as an area.
>
>
>
> Yours,
>
>
>
> José
>
>
>
>
>
> El dom., 29 de abril de 2018 7:51, <osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au>
> escribió:
>
> The musical_instrument *key* is generally used to name the specific type
> of musical instrument:
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/musical_instrument
>
> You are correct that it's mostly used in combination with
> shop=musical_instrument (a place selling them) or craft=musical_instrument
> (a place making them).
>
> But there are also a (very) few cases tagged as amenity=musical_instrument
> (a place where a musical instrument is available for use) and
> playground=musical_instrument (similar, but generally a more robust "toy"
> instrument aimed at a younger audience). Neither one of which is currently
> specifically documented on the wiki, but that shouldn't stop you from using
> them.
>
> So a piano in a bar that is available for people to play on should
> probably be tagged:
>
> amenity=musical_instrument
> musical_instrument=piano
> access=permissive (or access=customer in some cases)
>
> Either way, the piano is privately owned and the owner is currently making
> it available to other people, but may revoke that permission at will in the
> future.
>
> Cheers,
> Thorsten
>
> P.S. is there a preference on this mailing list for top or bottom posting?
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: e1k <emilea...@protonmail.ch>
> > Sent: Sunday, 29 April 2018 15:12
> > To: tagging@openstreetmap.org
> > Subject: [Tagging] musical_instrument tag for publicly available
> > musical instruments
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > (first post, plz be gentle!)
> > i'd love to see if there can be consensus on the use of the
> > 'musical_instrument' tag for publicly available musical instruments.
> > a growing number of bars, train stations and or other public places
> > have musical instruments around where i live (Amsterdam area), and
> > i've started noticing and collecting these places, and would love
> > to tag them in openstreetmap.
> > use case: as a musician that travels around a bit, i'd love to know
> > where i can find a piano or guitar to play on.
> > i see the musical_instrument tag is mostly (only?) used for place
> > that create and/or sell musical instruments, but i'm wondering what
> > the appropriate form of tag would be for a publicly available
> > musical instrument.
> > (if this has been discussed before, plz point me at it, i coudln't
> > find it)
> >
> > best regards,
> > emile
> >
> >
> > ​---
> >
> > All revolutions are impossible until they happen. Then they become
> > inevitable -- Albie Sachs​
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] musical_instrument tag for publicly available musical instruments

[osm.tagging]

Obviously, you would have to use a separate node inside the area that is tagged 
as the bar to tag the piano…

 

If you want to go into this much detail about what’s inside the bar (or 
anything else for that matter), tagging the area and then putting things inside 
it is much more manageable then trying to tag everything on a single node.

 

In that regards it’s the same as tagging e.g. a café inside a bookshop.

 

From: José G Moya Y. <josem...@gmail.com> 
Sent: Sunday, 29 April 2018 18:37
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools <tagging@openstreetmap.org>
Subject: Re: [Tagging] musical_instrument tag for publicly available musical 
instruments

 

I think this is a good idea, but, in the suggestion of Thorsten, I find 
problematic the use of "access=" tag when instruments are in a bar. Imagine a 
bar with a private piano is tagged as a point:

 

amenity=bar

amenity=musical_instrument

musical_instrument=piano

access=private

 

It does not make clear if either access to bar or access to piano is private. 

 

Also, since bars are amenities, a duplicate "amenity" tag arises. You have to 
either put two points or tag the bar as an area.

 

Yours,

 

José

 

 

El dom., 29 de abril de 2018 7:51, <osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au 
<mailto:osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au> > escribió:

The musical_instrument *key* is generally used to name the specific type of 
musical instrument: https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/musical_instrument

You are correct that it's mostly used in combination with 
shop=musical_instrument (a place selling them) or craft=musical_instrument (a 
place making them).

But there are also a (very) few cases tagged as amenity=musical_instrument (a 
place where a musical instrument is available for use) and 
playground=musical_instrument (similar, but generally a more robust "toy" 
instrument aimed at a younger audience). Neither one of which is currently 
specifically documented on the wiki, but that shouldn't stop you from using 
them.

So a piano in a bar that is available for people to play on should probably be 
tagged:

amenity=musical_instrument
musical_instrument=piano
access=permissive (or access=customer in some cases)

Either way, the piano is privately owned and the owner is currently making it 
available to other people, but may revoke that permission at will in the future.

Cheers,
Thorsten

P.S. is there a preference on this mailing list for top or bottom posting?

> -Original Message-
> From: e1k <emilea...@protonmail.ch <mailto:emilea...@protonmail.ch> >
> Sent: Sunday, 29 April 2018 15:12
> To: tagging@openstreetmap.org <mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org> 
> Subject: [Tagging] musical_instrument tag for publicly available
> musical instruments
> 
> Hi,
> 
> (first post, plz be gentle!)
> i'd love to see if there can be consensus on the use of the
> 'musical_instrument' tag for publicly available musical instruments.
> a growing number of bars, train stations and or other public places
> have musical instruments around where i live (Amsterdam area), and
> i've started noticing and collecting these places, and would love
> to tag them in openstreetmap.
> use case: as a musician that travels around a bit, i'd love to know
> where i can find a piano or guitar to play on.
> i see the musical_instrument tag is mostly (only?) used for place
> that create and/or sell musical instruments, but i'm wondering what
> the appropriate form of tag would be for a publicly available
> musical instrument.
> (if this has been discussed before, plz point me at it, i coudln't
> find it)
> 
> best regards,
> emile
> 
> 
> ​---
> 
> All revolutions are impossible until they happen. Then they become
> inevitable -- Albie Sachs​
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org <mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org> 
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging



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Re: [Tagging] musical_instrument tag for publicly available musical instruments

[Thilo Haug OSM]

Hello all,

i think that subtags are necessary for all types of shops
but may be the same for every (non-food) type of shop,
as all of them usually offer the same (besides sales),
so the following may apply :

musical_instrument:sales=*
musical_instrument:rental=*
musical_instrument:repair=*
musical_instrument:parts=*
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dmusical_instrument

I case of the bars,
it could be
amenity=bar
musical_instrument:rental=piano
fee:piao=no @ customers
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:fee

So the keys for the shop
could also be used for other "main" tags such as amenities.
Any standardisation would IMHO ease the tagging of more complex cases.

Cheers,
Thilo

Am 29.04.2018 um 10:36 schrieb José G Moya Y.:
> I think this is a good idea, but, in the suggestion of Thorsten, I
> find problematic the use of "access=" tag when instruments are in a
> bar. Imagine a bar with a private piano is tagged as a point:
>
> amenity=bar
> amenity=musical_instrument
> musical_instrument=piano
> access=private
>
> It does not make clear if either access to bar or access to piano is
> private. 
>
> Also, since bars are amenities, a duplicate "amenity" tag arises. You
> have to either put two points or tag the bar as an area.
>
> Yours,
>
> José
>
>
> El dom., 29 de abril de 2018 7:51,  > escribió:
>
> The musical_instrument *key* is generally used to name the
> specific type of musical instrument:
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/musical_instrument
>
> You are correct that it's mostly used in combination with
> shop=musical_instrument (a place selling them) or
> craft=musical_instrument (a place making them).
>
> But there are also a (very) few cases tagged as
> amenity=musical_instrument (a place where a musical instrument is
> available for use) and playground=musical_instrument (similar, but
> generally a more robust "toy" instrument aimed at a younger
> audience). Neither one of which is currently specifically
> documented on the wiki, but that shouldn't stop you from using them.
>
> So a piano in a bar that is available for people to play on should
> probably be tagged:
>
> amenity=musical_instrument
> musical_instrument=piano
> access=permissive (or access=customer in some cases)
>
> Either way, the piano is privately owned and the owner is
> currently making it available to other people, but may revoke that
> permission at will in the future.
>
> Cheers,
> Thorsten
>
> P.S. is there a preference on this mailing list for top or bottom
> posting?
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: e1k >
> > Sent: Sunday, 29 April 2018 15:12
> > To: tagging@openstreetmap.org 
> > Subject: [Tagging] musical_instrument tag for publicly available
> > musical instruments
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > (first post, plz be gentle!)
> > i'd love to see if there can be consensus on the use of the
> > 'musical_instrument' tag for publicly available musical instruments.
> > a growing number of bars, train stations and or other public places
> > have musical instruments around where i live (Amsterdam area), and
> > i've started noticing and collecting these places, and would love
> > to tag them in openstreetmap.
> > use case: as a musician that travels around a bit, i'd love to know
> > where i can find a piano or guitar to play on.
> > i see the musical_instrument tag is mostly (only?) used for place
> > that create and/or sell musical instruments, but i'm wondering what
> > the appropriate form of tag would be for a publicly available
> > musical instrument.
> > (if this has been discussed before, plz point me at it, i coudln't
> > find it)
> >
> > best regards,
> > emile
> >
> >
> > ​---
> >
> > All revolutions are impossible until they happen. Then they become
> > inevitable -- Albie Sachs​
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Tagging mailing list
> > Tagging@openstreetmap.org 
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
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>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] musical_instrument tag for publicly available musical instruments

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 29/04/2018 06:12, e1k wrote:

...
a growing number of bars, train stations and or other public places have 
musical instruments around where i live (Amsterdam area), and i've started 
noticing and collecting these places, and would love to tag them in 
openstreetmap.
use case: as a musician that travels around a bit, i'd love to know where i can 
find a piano or guitar to play on.
i see the musical_instrument tag is mostly (only?) used for place that create 
and/or sell musical instruments, but i'm wondering what the appropriate form of 
tag would be for a publicly available musical instrument.



There are quite a few "public pianos" tagged already:

https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/amenity=piano
122 of those

https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/musical_instrument=piano
56 of those, but those are mostly shops, not playable pianos:
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/musical_instrument#combinations

There's at least one data consumer of public pianos (someone sent me a 
message about one I'd mapped once as an "amenity=piano").


Best Regards,

Andy




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Re: [Tagging] musical_instrument tag for publicly available musical instruments

[José G Moya Y .]

I think this is a good idea, but, in the suggestion of Thorsten, I find
problematic the use of "access=" tag when instruments are in a bar. Imagine
a bar with a private piano is tagged as a point:

amenity=bar
amenity=musical_instrument
musical_instrument=piano
access=private

It does not make clear if either access to bar or access to piano is
private.

Also, since bars are amenities, a duplicate "amenity" tag arises. You have
to either put two points or tag the bar as an area.

Yours,

José


El dom., 29 de abril de 2018 7:51, 
escribió:

> The musical_instrument *key* is generally used to name the specific type
> of musical instrument:
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/musical_instrument
>
> You are correct that it's mostly used in combination with
> shop=musical_instrument (a place selling them) or craft=musical_instrument
> (a place making them).
>
> But there are also a (very) few cases tagged as amenity=musical_instrument
> (a place where a musical instrument is available for use) and
> playground=musical_instrument (similar, but generally a more robust "toy"
> instrument aimed at a younger audience). Neither one of which is currently
> specifically documented on the wiki, but that shouldn't stop you from using
> them.
>
> So a piano in a bar that is available for people to play on should
> probably be tagged:
>
> amenity=musical_instrument
> musical_instrument=piano
> access=permissive (or access=customer in some cases)
>
> Either way, the piano is privately owned and the owner is currently making
> it available to other people, but may revoke that permission at will in the
> future.
>
> Cheers,
> Thorsten
>
> P.S. is there a preference on this mailing list for top or bottom posting?
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: e1k 
> > Sent: Sunday, 29 April 2018 15:12
> > To: tagging@openstreetmap.org
> > Subject: [Tagging] musical_instrument tag for publicly available
> > musical instruments
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > (first post, plz be gentle!)
> > i'd love to see if there can be consensus on the use of the
> > 'musical_instrument' tag for publicly available musical instruments.
> > a growing number of bars, train stations and or other public places
> > have musical instruments around where i live (Amsterdam area), and
> > i've started noticing and collecting these places, and would love
> > to tag them in openstreetmap.
> > use case: as a musician that travels around a bit, i'd love to know
> > where i can find a piano or guitar to play on.
> > i see the musical_instrument tag is mostly (only?) used for place
> > that create and/or sell musical instruments, but i'm wondering what
> > the appropriate form of tag would be for a publicly available
> > musical instrument.
> > (if this has been discussed before, plz point me at it, i coudln't
> > find it)
> >
> > best regards,
> > emile
> >
> >
> > ​---
> >
> > All revolutions are impossible until they happen. Then they become
> > inevitable -- Albie Sachs​
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Tagging mailing list
> > Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
>
> ___
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>
>
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Re: [Tagging] musical_instrument tag for publicly available musical instruments

[osm.tagging]

The musical_instrument *key* is generally used to name the specific type of 
musical instrument: https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/musical_instrument

You are correct that it's mostly used in combination with 
shop=musical_instrument (a place selling them) or craft=musical_instrument (a 
place making them).

But there are also a (very) few cases tagged as amenity=musical_instrument (a 
place where a musical instrument is available for use) and 
playground=musical_instrument (similar, but generally a more robust "toy" 
instrument aimed at a younger audience). Neither one of which is currently 
specifically documented on the wiki, but that shouldn't stop you from using 
them.

So a piano in a bar that is available for people to play on should probably be 
tagged:

amenity=musical_instrument
musical_instrument=piano
access=permissive (or access=customer in some cases)

Either way, the piano is privately owned and the owner is currently making it 
available to other people, but may revoke that permission at will in the future.

Cheers,
Thorsten

P.S. is there a preference on this mailing list for top or bottom posting?

> -Original Message-
> From: e1k 
> Sent: Sunday, 29 April 2018 15:12
> To: tagging@openstreetmap.org
> Subject: [Tagging] musical_instrument tag for publicly available
> musical instruments
> 
> Hi,
> 
> (first post, plz be gentle!)
> i'd love to see if there can be consensus on the use of the
> 'musical_instrument' tag for publicly available musical instruments.
> a growing number of bars, train stations and or other public places
> have musical instruments around where i live (Amsterdam area), and
> i've started noticing and collecting these places, and would love
> to tag them in openstreetmap.
> use case: as a musician that travels around a bit, i'd love to know
> where i can find a piano or guitar to play on.
> i see the musical_instrument tag is mostly (only?) used for place
> that create and/or sell musical instruments, but i'm wondering what
> the appropriate form of tag would be for a publicly available
> musical instrument.
> (if this has been discussed before, plz point me at it, i coudln't
> find it)
> 
> best regards,
> emile
> 
> 
> ​---
> 
> All revolutions are impossible until they happen. Then they become
> inevitable -- Albie Sachs​
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging



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