Re: [Tagging] shop=clothes vs shop=fashion

[Markus]

On Sun, 10 Mar 2019 at 18:11, Jean-Marc Liotier  wrote:
>
> But ultimately, I believe that shop=clothe+clothes=luxury would take
> that special case back into the fold of a logical tagging scheme... The
> fewer special cases the better !

This seems like an even better solution. (Though, we still have the
problem with the clothes=* key being used for divergent features.
Maybe pricing=luxury instead?)

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Re: [Tagging] shop=clothes vs shop=fashion

[Jean-Marc Liotier]

On 3/10/19 1:30 PM, Markus wrote:

On Sun, 10 Mar 2019 at 10:35, severin.menard via Tagging
 wrote:

shop=boutique is also one of the most confusing tags for French speaking 
people, especially in Africa as boutique is used there for another type of 
shops (the most common one: small shops selling food items): 
http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/GOO

I'm aware of this linguistic problem. But instead of abandoning
shop=boutique, this problem can be solved if editors correct the
French translation ("boutique de mode"?) and if renderers display an
appropriate icon (maybe a shirt and a handbag?).


That would help - I would insist on the luxury aspect, something like 
"vêtements de luxe".


But ultimately, I believe that shop=clothe+clothes=luxury would take 
that special case back into the fold of a logical tagging scheme... The 
fewer special cases the better !




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Re: [Tagging] shop=clothes vs shop=fashion

[Jean-Marc Liotier]

On 3/10/19 10:33 AM, severin.menard via Tagging wrote:

Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2019 23:16:58 +0100

From: Markus selfishseaho...@gmail.com

I'm in favour of deprecating shop=fashion because of its unclear
meaning, but i prefer to keep shop=boutique for (and only for) small
shops selling high-priced clothes and accessories.

shop=boutique is also one of the most confusing tags for French speaking 
people, especially in Africa as boutique is used there for another type of 
shops (the most common one: small shops selling food items): 
http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/GOO


Hello Severin ! Enock and I mentioned that here a few days ago - 
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2019-March/043462.html




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Re: [Tagging] shop=clothes vs shop=fashion

[Markus]

On Sun, 10 Mar 2019 at 10:35, severin.menard via Tagging
 wrote:
>
> shop=boutique is also one of the most confusing tags for French speaking 
> people, especially in Africa as boutique is used there for another type of 
> shops (the most common one: small shops selling food items): 
> http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/GOO

I'm aware of this linguistic problem. But instead of abandoning
shop=boutique, this problem can be solved if editors correct the
French translation ("boutique de mode"?) and if renderers display an
appropriate icon (maybe a shirt and a handbag?).

Regards

Markus

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Re: [Tagging] shop=clothes vs shop=fashion

[Markus]

I'm in favour of deprecating shop=fashion because of its unclear
meaning, but i prefer to keep shop=boutique for (and only for) small
shops selling high-priced clothes and accessories.

Speaking of accessories: what i'm missing is a tag for shops that sell
various fashion accessories, such as bags, purses, wallets,
sunglasses, hats, umbrellas, watches, jewellery, headbands, scarves,
key rings etc. Shops that come to my mind are Accessorize, SIX or
Claire's. There is shop=accessoires with 422 uses, but this tag is
undocumented and therefore it's unclear if it hasn't also been used
for different accessories shops, such as shops that sell accessories
for mobile phones, cars, motorcycles or computers.
shop=fashion_accessories is unambiguous but has only been used 10
times so far.

Regards

Markus

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Re: [Tagging] shop=clothes vs shop=fashion

[Marc Gemis]

There is a very long thread on the same subject in August/September 2017.
It started here:
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2017-August/033127.html

The arguments of the emails in this thread regarding
boutique/fashion/clothes stores were given back then as well. So
nothing has changed in the meantime.

m.

On Wed, Mar 6, 2019 at 3:43 PM dktue  wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I currently found out that shops that sell clothes are either tagged with
>
>  shop=clothes
>
> or with
>
>  shop=fashion
>
> but I can't find out when to use which.
>
> Can anybody clarify?
>
> Cheers,
> Daniel
>
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Re: [Tagging] shop=clothes vs shop=fashion

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 6. Mar 2019, at 16:23, Tobias Zwick  wrote:
> 
> Sometimes even so small that you can't go inside but buy things through the 
> window


I agree with what was said before for kiosks: if you can go inside it is not a 
Kiosk. The kind of items sold may vary slightly in different cultural context 

Cheers, Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] shop=clothes vs shop=fashion

[Jean-Marc Liotier]

On 3/6/19 8:51 PM, Markus wrote:

What you describe is a shop=newsagent [1]. I wasn't aware of this tag
until four days ago when someone mentioned [2] on the Swiss mailing
list that some newsagents (k kiosk brand) are wrongly tagged as
shop=kiosk instead of shop=newsagent. Unfortunately, the word "Kiosk"
is also used for newsagents in German (or at least in Swiss German).


That may be because in the French language a street stall that sells 
mostly newspaper with a side of candy is called "un kiosque à journaux"...




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Re: [Tagging] shop=clothes vs shop=fashion

[Markus]

On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 at 20:17, Tobias Zwick  wrote:
>
> Hmm, basically all kiosk type shops around my area are big enough to be 
> entered - but only sell newspaper, magazines, cigarettes, drinks and snacks.  
> But *not* any of toilet paper, shampoo, cornflakes, yogurt, bread (so, daily 
> needs) iirc
>
> I think what they sell is a more useful differenciation than whether you can 
> enter or not.

What you describe is a shop=newsagent [1]. I wasn't aware of this tag
until four days ago when someone mentioned [2] on the Swiss mailing
list that some newsagents (k kiosk brand) are wrongly tagged as
shop=kiosk instead of shop=newsagent. Unfortunately, the word "Kiosk"
is also used for newsagents in German (or at least in Swiss German).

In my opinion, a shop that doesn't sell other food than snacks and
other non-food items than newspapers shouldn't be tagged
shop=convenience.

[1]: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dnewsagent
[2]: http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/pipermail/talk-ch/2019-March/009904.html
(in German)

Regards

Markus

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Re: [Tagging] shop=clothes vs shop=fashion

[Tobias Zwick]

Hmm, basically all kiosk type shops around my area are big enough to be entered 
- but only sell newspaper, magazines, cigarettes, drinks and snacks.  But *not* 
any of toilet paper, shampoo, cornflakes, yogurt, bread (so, daily needs) iirc

I think what they sell is a more useful differenciation than whether you can 
enter or not.

Am 6. März 2019 16:33:19 MEZ schrieb Mateusz Konieczny 
:
>Yes, shop is not becoming shop=kiosk just becomes you are unable to
>enter inside.
>
>Shop selling only clothes is still shop=clothes even if it is so small
>that you are unable 
>to enter inside.
>
>Shop selling only cars is still shop=car even if it is so small that
>you are unable 
>to enter inside.
>
>In some funny cases kiosk-type shops (sells drinks, newspapers,
>magazines, snacks, 
>cigarettes and the like) may be big enough that you can enter (for
>example at train 
>stations).
>
>
>Mar 6, 2019, 4:23 PM by o...@westnordost.de:
>
>> kiosk and convenience is supposed to be the same? I always used it
>like
>>
>> - convenience: small supermarket that is usually too small to have
>shopping carts but still also sells things of daily need (shampoo,
>toilet paper, milk, cornflakes, bread and spread,...). The typical
>7-Eleven store (doesn't exist in Germany btw)
>>
>> - kiosk: very small store that usually only sells drinks, newspapers,
>magazines, snacks, cigarettes and the like. Sometimes even so small
>that you can't go inside but buy things through the window
>>
>> Tobias
>>
>> Am 6. März 2019 16:06:25 MEZ schrieb Jean-Marc Liotier <>
>j...@liotier.org > >:
>> >On Wed, March 6, 2019 3:58 pm, Enock Seth Nyamador wrote:
>>
 Jean-Marc I agree with about shop=boutique much used in West
>Africa.

>> >The
>>
 reason being that the shops have boutique attached to their names.

>> >Indeed. In Dakar and Bamako, when you need to buy a Fanta, tu vas à
>la
>> >boutique... So I can't really blame contributors for using the word
>> >that
>> >sound most natural to them.
>>
>>>
>>>
>> >Depending on how big the shop is, solutions would be shop=kiosk
>(after
>> >years of pushing we are beginning to see that one adopted) and
>> >shop=convenience (which is not used enough)
>>
>>>
>>>
>> >___
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>> >> Tagging@openstreetmap.org 
>> >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>>
>> ___
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Re: [Tagging] shop=clothes vs shop=fashion

[Enock Seth Nyamador]

Shop selling only clothes is still shop=clothes even if it is so small 
that you are unable

to enter inside.
Shop selling only cars is still shop=car even if it is so small that 
you are unable

to enter inside.


Of course that's very valid scenarios.

In some funny cases kiosk-type shops (sells drinks, newspapers, 
magazines, snacks,
cigarettes and the like) may be big enough that you can enter (for 
example at train

stations).

In this case I will map as shop=convenience instead.


On 3/6/19 3:33 PM, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
Yes, shop is not becoming shop=kiosk just becomes you are unable to 
enter inside.


Shop selling only clothes is still shop=clothes even if it is so small 
that you are unable

to enter inside.

Shop selling only cars is still shop=car even if it is so small that 
you are unable

to enter inside.

In some funny cases kiosk-type shops (sells drinks, newspapers, 
magazines, snacks,
cigarettes and the like) may be big enough that you can enter (for 
example at train

stations).


Mar 6, 2019, 4:23 PM by o...@westnordost.de:

kiosk and convenience is supposed to be the same? I always used it
like

- convenience: small supermarket that is usually too small to have
shopping carts but still also sells things of daily need (shampoo,
toilet paper, milk, cornflakes, bread and spread,...). The typical
7-Eleven store (doesn't exist in Germany btw)

- kiosk: very small store that usually only sells drinks,
newspapers, magazines, snacks, cigarettes and the like. Sometimes
even so small that you can't go inside but buy things through the
window

Tobias

Am 6. März 2019 16:06:25 MEZ schrieb Jean-Marc Liotier
mailto:j...@liotier.org>>:
>On Wed, March 6, 2019 3:58 pm, Enock Seth Nyamador wrote:

Jean-Marc I agree with about shop=boutique much used in
West Africa.

>The

reason being that the shops have boutique attached to
their names.

>Indeed. In Dakar and Bamako, when you need to buy a Fanta, tu vas
à la
>boutique... So I can't really blame contributors for using the word
>that
>sound most natural to them.


>Depending on how big the shop is, solutions would be shop=kiosk
(after
>years of pushing we are beginning to see that one adopted) and
>shop=convenience (which is not used enough)


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--
Best,
-Enock

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Re: [Tagging] shop=clothes vs shop=fashion

[Jean-Marc Liotier]

On Wed, March 6, 2019 4:33 pm, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
> Yes, shop is not becoming shop=kiosk just becomes you are unable to enter
> inside.

Apologies - unsaid assumption was that we were talking about shops
carrying the typical convenience supplies, for which the distinction
between shop=convenience and shop=kiosk is necessary.

> In some funny cases kiosk-type shops (sells drinks, newspapers, magazines,
> snacks, cigarettes and the like) may be big enough that you can enter
> (for example at train stations).


Enock and I have West Africa in mind... Another unsaid assumption in our
exchange. The concept of kiosk in Europe is typically linked to press
distribution as an important part of its activity.

Moral of the story: check for unsaid assumptions and make them explicit...

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Re: [Tagging] shop=clothes vs shop=fashion

[Mateusz Konieczny]

Yes, shop is not becoming shop=kiosk just becomes you are unable to enter 
inside.

Shop selling only clothes is still shop=clothes even if it is so small that you 
are unable 
to enter inside.

Shop selling only cars is still shop=car even if it is so small that you are 
unable 
to enter inside.

In some funny cases kiosk-type shops (sells drinks, newspapers, magazines, 
snacks, 
cigarettes and the like) may be big enough that you can enter (for example at 
train 
stations).


Mar 6, 2019, 4:23 PM by o...@westnordost.de:

> kiosk and convenience is supposed to be the same? I always used it like
>
> - convenience: small supermarket that is usually too small to have shopping 
> carts but still also sells things of daily need (shampoo, toilet paper, milk, 
> cornflakes, bread and spread,...). The typical 7-Eleven store (doesn't exist 
> in Germany btw)
>
> - kiosk: very small store that usually only sells drinks, newspapers, 
> magazines, snacks, cigarettes and the like. Sometimes even so small that you 
> can't go inside but buy things through the window
>
> Tobias
>
> Am 6. März 2019 16:06:25 MEZ schrieb Jean-Marc Liotier <> j...@liotier.org 
> > >:
> >On Wed, March 6, 2019 3:58 pm, Enock Seth Nyamador wrote:
>
>>> Jean-Marc I agree with about shop=boutique much used in West Africa.
>>>
> >The
>
>>> reason being that the shops have boutique attached to their names.
>>>
> >Indeed. In Dakar and Bamako, when you need to buy a Fanta, tu vas à la
> >boutique... So I can't really blame contributors for using the word
> >that
> >sound most natural to them.
>
>>
>>
> >Depending on how big the shop is, solutions would be shop=kiosk (after
> >years of pushing we are beginning to see that one adopted) and
> >shop=convenience (which is not used enough)
>
>>
>>
> >___
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> >> Tagging@openstreetmap.org 
> >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging 
> >> 
>
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Re: [Tagging] shop=clothes vs shop=fashion

[Jean-Marc Liotier]

On Wed, March 6, 2019 4:28 pm, Jean-Marc Liotier wrote:
>
> Enock's razor sums it up nicely:
> - stand outside to buy goods -> shop=convenience
> - you can enter the shop -> shop=kiosk

Aargl. I inverted it - gross mistake, sorry... So, again but in the
correct order:

Enock's shop razor:
- stand outside to buy goods -> shop=kiosk
- you can enter the shop -> shop=convenience


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Re: [Tagging] shop=clothes vs shop=fashion

[Jean-Marc Liotier]

On Wed, March 6, 2019 4:23 pm, Tobias Zwick wrote:
>
> - convenience: small supermarket that is usually too small to have
> shopping carts but still also sells things of daily need (shampoo, toilet
> paper, milk, cornflakes, bread and spread,...). The typical 7-Eleven store
> (doesn't exist in Germany btw)
>
> - kiosk: very small store that usually only sells drinks, newspapers,
> magazines, snacks, cigarettes and the like. Sometimes even so small that
> you can't go inside but buy things through the window

This is correct, modulo local cultural differences. Enock's razor sums it
up nicely:
- stand outside to buy goods -> shop=convenience
- you can enter the shop -> shop=kiosk


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Re: [Tagging] shop=clothes vs shop=fashion

[Tobias Zwick]

kiosk and convenience is supposed to be the same? I always used it like

- convenience: small supermarket that is usually too small to have shopping 
carts but still also sells things of daily need (shampoo, toilet paper, milk, 
cornflakes, bread and spread,...). The typical 7-Eleven store (doesn't exist in 
Germany btw)

- kiosk: very small store that usually only sells drinks, newspapers, 
magazines, snacks, cigarettes and the like. Sometimes even so small that you 
can't go inside but buy things through the window

Tobias

Am 6. März 2019 16:06:25 MEZ schrieb Jean-Marc Liotier :
>On Wed, March 6, 2019 3:58 pm, Enock Seth Nyamador wrote:
>> Jean-Marc I agree with about shop=boutique much used in West Africa.
>The
>> reason being that the shops have boutique attached to their names.
>
>Indeed. In Dakar and Bamako, when you need to buy a Fanta, tu vas à la
>boutique... So I can't really blame contributors for using the word
>that
>sound most natural to them.
>
>Depending on how big the shop is, solutions would be shop=kiosk (after
>years of pushing we are beginning to see that one adopted) and
>shop=convenience (which is not used enough)
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] shop=clothes vs shop=fashion

[Enock Seth Nyamador]

Absolutely. shop=kiosk is the best for these shops; which you mostly stand
outside to buy goods. shop=convenience if you can enter the shop I tell
people now a days.

Le mer. 6 mars 2019 à 15:07, Jean-Marc Liotier  a écrit :

> On Wed, March 6, 2019 3:58 pm, Enock Seth Nyamador wrote:
> > Jean-Marc I agree with about shop=boutique much used in West Africa. The
> > reason being that the shops have boutique attached to their names.
>
> Indeed. In Dakar and Bamako, when you need to buy a Fanta, tu vas à la
> boutique... So I can't really blame contributors for using the word that
> sound most natural to them.
>
> Depending on how big the shop is, solutions would be shop=kiosk (after
> years of pushing we are beginning to see that one adopted) and
> shop=convenience (which is not used enough)
>
>
> ___
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>


-- 
Best,
-Enock
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Re: [Tagging] shop=clothes vs shop=fashion

[Jean-Marc Liotier]

On Wed, March 6, 2019 3:58 pm, Enock Seth Nyamador wrote:
> Jean-Marc I agree with about shop=boutique much used in West Africa. The
> reason being that the shops have boutique attached to their names.

Indeed. In Dakar and Bamako, when you need to buy a Fanta, tu vas à la
boutique... So I can't really blame contributors for using the word that
sound most natural to them.

Depending on how big the shop is, solutions would be shop=kiosk (after
years of pushing we are beginning to see that one adopted) and
shop=convenience (which is not used enough)


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Re: [Tagging] shop=clothes vs shop=fashion

[Enock Seth Nyamador]

Jean-Marc I agree with about shop=boutique much used in West Africa. The
reason being that the shops have boutique attached to their names.

Best,
- Enock


Le mer. 6 mars 2019 à 14:51, Jean-Marc Liotier  a écrit :

> On Wed, March 6, 2019 3:42 pm, dktue wrote:
> >
> > I currently found out that shops that sell clothes are either tagged with
> > shop=clothes or with shop=fashion
> > but I can't find out when to use which.
>
> shop=clothes only sell unfashionable clothes.
>
> But seriously, shop=clothes is factual whereas shop=fashion is a matter of
> appreciation, so I would go with shop=clothes and let subsidiary tags
> optionally describe the particular sort of clothes sold.
>
> And then there is shop=boutique which I hate with a particular passion,
> not just because is is as subjective as shop=fashion but also because
> "boutique" is French for "small shop" and it is therefore used all over
> West Africa to tag all sorts of shops...
>
> Links:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dboutique
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dclothes
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dfashion
>
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Re: [Tagging] shop=clothes vs shop=fashion

[Jean-Marc Liotier]

On Wed, March 6, 2019 3:42 pm, dktue wrote:
>
> I currently found out that shops that sell clothes are either tagged with
> shop=clothes or with shop=fashion
> but I can't find out when to use which.

shop=clothes only sell unfashionable clothes.

But seriously, shop=clothes is factual whereas shop=fashion is a matter of
appreciation, so I would go with shop=clothes and let subsidiary tags
optionally describe the particular sort of clothes sold.

And then there is shop=boutique which I hate with a particular passion,
not just because is is as subjective as shop=fashion but also because
"boutique" is French for "small shop" and it is therefore used all over
West Africa to tag all sorts of shops...

Links:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dboutique
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dclothes
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dfashion

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Re: [Tagging] shop=clothes vs shop=fashion

[Jarek Piórkowski]

On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 at 09:42, dktue  wrote:
> I currently found out that shops that sell clothes are either tagged with
>  shop=clothes
> or with
>  shop=fashion
> but I can't find out when to use which.
>
> Can anybody clarify?

There is a continuum with shop=clothes, shop=fashion, and into
shop=boutique. As far as I know there is no clear definition
currently. But there also isn't a clear distinction in the real world.

shop=clothes is by far the more widely used one:
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/?key=shop=clothes 230
thousand uses, https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/?key=shop=fashion
7 thousand, https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/?key=shop=boutique
15 thousand.

My interpretation has been that shop=boutique is significantly more
expensive than shop=clothes. To be honest I wouldn't use shop=fashion
unless neither "clothes" nor "boutique" fit very well for whatever
reason.

--Jarek

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