Re: [Tagging] tagging for discount stores in US
Hmm, to me there are three levels. Crazy Clarks is bargain/discount Target, KMart are downmarket DJ's etc are upmarket How should we tag a factory outlet type store that sell's upmarket stuff at lower prices? I can easily find stores that sell every product at a very reduced price, but still don't sell anything less than $100. It's just that normally it would be $300+. Stephen On 7 May 2010 15:00, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: I wouldn't tag crazy clarkes as a department store, Kmart and Target are along with David Jones, Myer's, Grace Brothers... However Kmart/Target aren't in the same class as David Jones etc, hence the discount tag... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] tagging for discount stores in US
On 7 May 2010 18:15, Stephen Hope slh...@gmail.com wrote: Hmm, to me there are three levels. Isn't the english language wonderful, you ask people from different natively speaking english backgrounds what something means and you end up with almost a different answer each time, although I'm guessing this problem isn't only limited to english. How should we tag a factory outlet type store that sell's upmarket stuff at lower prices? I can easily find stores that sell every product at a very reduced price, but still don't sell anything less than $100. It's just that normally it would be $300+. shop=factory_outlet ? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] tagging for discount stores in US
2010/5/6 John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com: On 6 May 2010 19:27, Richard Mann richard.mann.westoxf...@googlemail.com wrote: In the UK, they'd almost certainly be tagged as supermarkets, since our stores tend to have one product area dominant (eg groceries). Department stores are large shops with lots of different departments selling lots of different things from lots of different counters, but the staff (and the tills) all under one management. Typically with a large cosmetics department near the front door. +1, in Germany it's the same. In the US walmart/Kmart etc aren't the same thing as supermarkets, they have less emphasis on groceries... in Germany all discount-stores (like Aldi, Lidl, Netto) are tagged as supermarkets, even though they are not real supermarkets but have a very limited selection in general and few groceries in particular. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] tagging for discount stores in US
From my experience (in the USA), most WalMarts and KMarts only allocate a small percentage of their floor space to groceries. The so-called super WalMarts have a full range of groceries; even so, the grocery section takes up only 20 percent or so of the store. --Original Message-- From: John Smith Sender: tagging-boun...@openstreetmap.org To: OpenStreetMap tagging mailing list ReplyTo: OpenStreetMap tagging mailing list Subject: Re: [Tagging] tagging for discount stores in US Sent: May 6, 2010 4:43 AM On 6 May 2010 19:27, Richard Mann richard.mann.westoxf...@googlemail.com wrote: In the UK, they'd almost certainly be tagged as supermarkets, since our stores tend to have one product area dominant (eg groceries). Department stores are large shops with lots of different departments selling lots of different things from lots of different counters, but the staff (and the tills) all under one management. Typically with a large cosmetics department near the front door. In the US walmart/Kmart etc aren't the same thing as supermarkets, they have less emphasis on groceries... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] tagging for discount stores in US
2010/5/6 John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com: From my experience (in the USA), most WalMarts and KMarts only allocate a small percentage of their floor space to groceries. The so-called super WalMarts have a full range of groceries; even so, the grocery section takes up only 20 percent or so of the store. is this a proposal for est_floorspace:grocery=0.2 or for shop=supermarket, super=yes? If you think that shop=supermarket isn't sufficient I suggest to use additional tags rather than change or detailize (?) the definition of the main tag. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] tagging for discount stores in US
On 5/6/10 8:47 AM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote: 2010/5/6 John F. Eldredgej...@jfeldredge.com: From my experience (in the USA), most WalMarts and KMarts only allocate a small percentage of their floor space to groceries. The so-called super WalMarts have a full range of groceries; even so, the grocery section takes up only 20 percent or so of the store. is this a proposal for est_floorspace:grocery=0.2 or for shop=supermarket, super=yes? If you think that shop=supermarket isn't sufficient I suggest to use additional tags rather than change or detailize (?) the definition of the main tag. i don't think that it would occur to a US based mapper to tag these discount stores as supermarkets, it's not intuitive to us and the wiki description of the tags wouldn't lead us there. department_store or general would be much more likely to be used (i've used department_store to date). most of these stores devote no more than 5 or 10% of their floorspace to food, and are otherwise inexpensive department stores, and i'm certainly having trouble seeing how 10% of their stock overrides the other 90% when it comes to tagging. richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] tagging for discount stores in US
2010/5/6 Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net: most of these stores devote no more than 5 or 10% of their floorspace to food, and are otherwise inexpensive department stores, and i'm certainly having trouble seeing how 10% of their stock overrides the other 90% when it comes to tagging. I see. The type of discout stores we have here (there should be some wallmart as well, but I personally never encountered one) usually are mainly for food and have just occasionally some non-food articles (maybe 2-5% of their floor space), that's why we have no problem tagging them as supermarkets. Btw.: the department stores do not even render in the mapnik-style (I filed a ticket for this right now). Thinking a bit more I see that even in Germany there are indeed discount department stores. This leads to a new proposal: discount=yes to discriminate discounters. Could be used in addition for supermarkets, department stores and maybe others. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] tagging for discount stores in US
On 5/6/10 9:15 AM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote: This leads to a new proposal: discount=yes to discriminate discounters. Could be used in addition for supermarkets, department stores and maybe others. usable with any shop= where appropriate? i can see that. richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] tagging for discount stores in US
I am saying that, since the standard meaning of supermarket is grocery store, at least in the USA, tagging such stores as department stores would more accurately reflect the merchandise available than tagging them as supermarkets. --Original Message-- From: M∡rtin Koppenhoefer To: John Eldredge To: OpenStreetMap tagging mailing list ReplyTo: m...@koppenhoefer.com Subject: Re: [Tagging] tagging for discount stores in US Sent: May 6, 2010 7:47 AM 2010/5/6 John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com: From my experience (in the USA), most WalMarts and KMarts only allocate a small percentage of their floor space to groceries. The so-called super WalMarts have a full range of groceries; even so, the grocery section takes up only 20 percent or so of the store. is this a proposal for est_floorspace:grocery=0.2 or for shop=supermarket, super=yes? If you think that shop=supermarket isn't sufficient I suggest to use additional tags rather than change or detailize (?) the definition of the main tag. cheers, Martin -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] tagging for discount stores in US
On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 9:15 AM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.comwrote: I see. The type of discout stores we have here (there should be some wallmart as well, but I personally never encountered one) usually are mainly for food and have just occasionally some non-food articles (maybe 2-5% of their floor space), that's why we have no problem tagging them as supermarkets. Btw.: the department stores do not even render in the mapnik-style (I filed a ticket for this right now). Thinking a bit more I see that even in Germany there are indeed discount department stores. This leads to a new proposal: discount=yes to discriminate discounters. Could be used in addition for supermarkets, department stores and maybe others. I think Super Walmart SuperTargets in the US are comparable with Carrefour -- the mega Carrefours, like ones I've been to in the Middle East elsewhere. (I've also been to small Carrefours -- in central Buenos Aires -- that are only supermarkets). Super Walmart and such have full grocery stores (selling fruits, veggies, etc.) in addition to all the other sections. If I were mapping these, they would get the supermarket tag, perhaps in combination with department store. Then, in the US, we have regular, smaller (still big) Targets and Walmarts that mainly sell a variety of other stuff. I would give these just department store tags, though also tagging them as discount=yes would be fine. -Katie cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Katie Filbert @filbertkm ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] tagging for discount stores in US
On Thu, 6 May 2010, Richard Welty wrote: On 5/6/10 9:15 AM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote: This leads to a new proposal: discount=yes to discriminate discounters. Could be used in addition for supermarkets, department stores and maybe others. usable with any shop= where appropriate? i can see that. richard Even discount=yes is subjective what is sold here in this sort of shop is often cheap junk, and not a bargain Every electrical and white goods store in Au discounts because the recommended prices are inflated initially. It all looks good in the brochure. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] tagging for discount stores in US
On 5/6/10 4:52 PM, Liz wrote: On Thu, 6 May 2010, Richard Welty wrote: On 5/6/10 9:15 AM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote: This leads to a new proposal: discount=yes to discriminate discounters. Could be used in addition for supermarkets, department stores and maybe others. usable with any shop= where appropriate? i can see that. richard Even discount=yes is subjective what is sold here in this sort of shop is often cheap junk, and not a bargain Every electrical and white goods store in Au discounts because the recommended prices are inflated initially. It all looks good in the brochure. well, yes, but within the US at least, i think there's broad agreement that one tier of department store (walmart, kmart, target) is discount with respect to another (macys, pennys, nordstrom, etc.) richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] tagging for discount stores in US
On 7 May 2010 07:03, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net wrote: well, yes, but within the US at least, i think there's broad agreement that one tier of department store (walmart, kmart, target) is discount with respect to another (macys, pennys, nordstrom, etc.) The same thing is true of Australia... Although I still haven't figured out the relationship between kmart in Australia and kmart in the US, but they're similar... but I'd consider kmart a discount store compared to myre's, david jones, grace brothers, etc... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] tagging for discount stores in US
On Fri, 7 May 2010, John Smith wrote: On 7 May 2010 07:03, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net wrote: well, yes, but within the US at least, i think there's broad agreement that one tier of department store (walmart, kmart, target) is discount with respect to another (macys, pennys, nordstrom, etc.) The same thing is true of Australia... Although I still haven't figured out the relationship between kmart in Australia and kmart in the US, but they're similar... but I'd consider kmart a discount store compared to myre's, david jones, grace brothers, etc... nothing is actually cheaper in target or kmart Australia when you compare exact items eg branded toys like Lego it's all illusion ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] tagging for discount stores in US
On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 7:13 AM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: well, yes, but within the US at least, i think there's broad agreement that one tier of department store (walmart, kmart, target) is discount with respect to another (macys, pennys, nordstrom, etc.) The same thing is true of Australia... I disagree that there's broad agreement here on what stores are discount stores. I've never heard anyone in Australia refer to Kmart or Target as a discount store. I have heard this word used for, say, Crazy Clarks or Dollars and Sense. But I would have trouble objectively defining what it is, exactly, that makes Crazy Clarks a discount store. Seeing discount=yes tagged on a Target store would confuse me. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] tagging for discount stores in US
On 5/6/10 8:30 PM, Roy Wallace wrote: I disagree that there's broad agreement here on what stores are discount stores. I've never heard anyone in Australia refer to Kmart or Target as a discount store. I have heard this word used for, say, Crazy Clarks or Dollars and Sense. But I would have trouble objectively defining what it is, exactly, that makes Crazy Clarks a discount store. Seeing discount=yes tagged on a Target store would confuse me. well, it's hardly critial, department_store will do ok w/o the discount tag. richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] tagging for discount stores in US
On 7 May 2010 10:30, Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com wrote: I've never heard anyone in Australia refer to Kmart or Target as a discount store. I have heard this word used for, say, Crazy Clarks or Dollars and Sense. But I would have trouble objectively defining what it is, exactly, that makes Crazy Clarks a discount store. I wouldn't tag crazy clarkes as a department store, Kmart and Target are along with David Jones, Myer's, Grace Brothers... However Kmart/Target aren't in the same class as David Jones etc, hence the discount tag... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] tagging for discount stores in US
On 6 May 2010 11:24, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net wrote: they really don't quite seem to go as department_store, but also seem large for the value general. what are people typically using? shop=department_store seems to fit to me: A single large store - often multiple storeys high - selling a large variety of goods ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] tagging for discount stores in US
On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 9:24 PM, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.netwrote: by discount store, i mean the largish stores like WalMart, Target, K Mart, etc. they really don't quite seem to go as department_store, but also seem large for the value general. what are people typically using? I would tag them as department_store. These are of the discount variety (discount department store), but still fit the tag. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Target_Corporation#Target_Stores Though, many Targets and Super Walmarts have large grocery sections, so they could also get shop=supermarket, and there might be a McDonalds, Pizza Hut or Taco Bell Express, and other things. Thus, we have the issue with how to assign multiple values (as separate pois, with relations, or separated with semicolons in a single poi, or other means of tagging) -Katie richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Katie Filbert @filbertkm ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] tagging for discount stores in US
On 6 May 2010 11:59, Katie Filbert filbe...@gmail.com wrote: Though, many Targets and Super Walmarts have large grocery sections, so they could also get shop=supermarket, and there might be a McDonalds, Pizza Hut or Taco Bell Express, and other things. Thus, we have the issue with how to assign multiple values (as separate pois, with relations, or separated with semicolons in a single poi, or other means of tagging) The different shops should get their own POI, the only difference is they're indoors so you would need a laser range finder or guess the position... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
