Re: [GTALUG] decent cheap ChromeOS tablet -- can run debian in a container

2022-01-24 Thread Ansar Mohammed via talk 
I have the Dell Venue Pro also. In fact I have two of them and an HP Stream
7. There are lots of Windows tablets on ebay. The cheapest I have seen is
the toshiba encore series ~30USD. But they are almost identical to
the Venue Pro
Debian runs very very well on them. But it was a pain to get the wifi
recognized.
The problem wasn't so much getting it to work, but more of "ok now what?
what can I do with this?"


On Mon, Jan 24, 2022 at 11:06 AM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk <
talk@gtalug.org> wrote:

> | From: Ansar Mohammed via talk 
>
> | Depending on what you want to achieve,
>
> Yes!
>
> | IMHO you can get a used HP 10 inch
> | tablet on eBay for $50 running Windows and flatten it with Debian.
> | https://www.ebay.com/itm/324124770651
> | Windows on 7-10 inch tablets are all over ebay.
>
> Not a terrible idea, but there are problems with this particular
> example:
>
> - ebay.COM:
> US$50, not C$50
> unknown (to me) problems and expense  getting it across the border
> unlikely to have a useful warranty (used, across border)
>
> - specs: https://support.hp.com/us-en/document/c04553375
>
> - 1280x800 resolution
>
> - poor SoC
>
> https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/80274/intel-atom-processor-z3735f-2m-cache-up-to-1-83-ghz.html
> SoC launched 7 years ago
> intentionally crippled on launch
> Intel's goal: compete against ARM but don't cannibalize x86
> Microsoft's goal: compete against Android/iOS but don't
> cannibalize existing Windows market.
> surely 32-bit UEFI even though CPU can do x86-64.
>
> - only one USB socket and that is only USB 2
>
> Linux support is mixed for this kind of tablet (I have a Dell Venue 8
> Pro of this generation).  Typically the SoC has very odd bits.  Like:
> audio is hooked up in a non-standard and non-obvious way.  Like: UEFI
> cannot access SD card (so you cannot boot from it).  I was defeated
> when I tried to put linux on it back in the day.  I think that Linux
> mostly works these days (I tried booting the Venue 8 off a live Fedora
> stick a few months ago).
>
> There was a tremendous blossoming of Windows tablets then
> (Win 8.1 era).  Evolution could have improved them but instead it
> killed them off (Intel and Microsoft threw in the towel).  Windows
> tablets now are expensive and inferior.  This is what currently passes
> as a good deal (yuck):
>
> https://forums.redflagdeals.com/best-buy-microsoft-surface-laptop-go-12-4-i5-1035g1-4-64-emmc-499-99-2520226/
>
> Currently, there are often reasonable deals on reasonable laptops with
> touch.  But they start at over $400 new.  Ones that I've considered
> start at about $700 on sale.
>
> The Lenovo is not much more expensive than the HP (when you factor in
> cross-border friction and used versus new) and has usefully better
> capabilities. But the HP can probably run Linux natively rather than
> in a container.
>
> - USB 3.x with extras vs USB 2.0 (OTG?)
> - 4G RAM vs 2G
> - 64G eMMC vs 32G eMMC
> - 1920x1200 vs 1280x800 resolution
> - warranty support vs no support
>
> If you want a good tablet, and don't need Linux, it is hard to argue
> against iPads.  Android tablets only seem to win when you consider price
> (which I do) or tinkerability.
>
> ChromeOS tablets are probably clunkier than Android tablets but they
> can run Android apps and they get support for many more years.  Linux
> under ChromeOS is supported by Google but Linux under Android is not.
>
> Windows Subsystem for Linux is a potentially interesting thing on
> tablets.  It will not run on 32-bit Windows, and so it won't run on
> this HP.  Actually, the HP hardware is too limited to be officially
> supported by current Window 10, but I think it works.  32G of "disk"
> is a nightmare when running Windows Update.
> ---
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Re: [GTALUG] decent cheap ChromeOS tablet -- can run debian in a container

2022-01-24 Thread D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk 
| From: Ansar Mohammed via talk 

| Depending on what you want to achieve,

Yes!

| IMHO you can get a used HP 10 inch
| tablet on eBay for $50 running Windows and flatten it with Debian.
| https://www.ebay.com/itm/324124770651
| Windows on 7-10 inch tablets are all over ebay.

Not a terrible idea, but there are problems with this particular
example:

- ebay.COM:
US$50, not C$50
unknown (to me) problems and expense  getting it across the border
unlikely to have a useful warranty (used, across border)

- specs: https://support.hp.com/us-en/document/c04553375

- 1280x800 resolution

- poor SoC

https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/80274/intel-atom-processor-z3735f-2m-cache-up-to-1-83-ghz.html
SoC launched 7 years ago
intentionally crippled on launch
Intel's goal: compete against ARM but don't cannibalize x86
Microsoft's goal: compete against Android/iOS but don't
cannibalize existing Windows market.
surely 32-bit UEFI even though CPU can do x86-64.

- only one USB socket and that is only USB 2

Linux support is mixed for this kind of tablet (I have a Dell Venue 8
Pro of this generation).  Typically the SoC has very odd bits.  Like:
audio is hooked up in a non-standard and non-obvious way.  Like: UEFI
cannot access SD card (so you cannot boot from it).  I was defeated
when I tried to put linux on it back in the day.  I think that Linux
mostly works these days (I tried booting the Venue 8 off a live Fedora
stick a few months ago).

There was a tremendous blossoming of Windows tablets then
(Win 8.1 era).  Evolution could have improved them but instead it
killed them off (Intel and Microsoft threw in the towel).  Windows
tablets now are expensive and inferior.  This is what currently passes
as a good deal (yuck):
https://forums.redflagdeals.com/best-buy-microsoft-surface-laptop-go-12-4-i5-1035g1-4-64-emmc-499-99-2520226/

Currently, there are often reasonable deals on reasonable laptops with
touch.  But they start at over $400 new.  Ones that I've considered
start at about $700 on sale.

The Lenovo is not much more expensive than the HP (when you factor in
cross-border friction and used versus new) and has usefully better
capabilities. But the HP can probably run Linux natively rather than
in a container.

- USB 3.x with extras vs USB 2.0 (OTG?)
- 4G RAM vs 2G
- 64G eMMC vs 32G eMMC
- 1920x1200 vs 1280x800 resolution
- warranty support vs no support

If you want a good tablet, and don't need Linux, it is hard to argue
against iPads.  Android tablets only seem to win when you consider price
(which I do) or tinkerability.

ChromeOS tablets are probably clunkier than Android tablets but they
can run Android apps and they get support for many more years.  Linux
under ChromeOS is supported by Google but Linux under Android is not.

Windows Subsystem for Linux is a potentially interesting thing on
tablets.  It will not run on 32-bit Windows, and so it won't run on
this HP.  Actually, the HP hardware is too limited to be officially
supported by current Window 10, but I think it works.  32G of "disk"
is a nightmare when running Windows Update.
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Re: [GTALUG] decent cheap ChromeOS tablet -- can run debian in a container

2022-01-23 Thread Ansar Mohammed via talk 
Depending on what you want to achieve, IMHO you can get a used HP 10 inch
tablet on eBay for $50 running Windows and flatten it with Debian.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/324124770651
Windows on 7-10 inch tablets are all over ebay.

On Fri, Jan 14, 2022 at 3:54 PM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk 
wrote:

> | From: o1bigtenor via talk 
>
> | Is dual boot better than blowing away the android system and installing
> | an OS?
>
> I think that you mean blowing away the ChromeOS system.
>
> I don't know if that is possible.  I know that this was possible on at
> least some x86-based CromeOS clamshells.  The Arm world is less
> standardized so it's not a sure thing.  Best to search for others who
> have done this.
>
> In my modest experience most x86 boxes sold with Windows can be easily
> switched to Linux.  That's a better direction to go for Linux on bare
> metal.
>
> | I'm a long time debian user - - - trying to decide between debian or
> | galliumOS - - - suggestions?
>
> I have no experience will galliumOS.
> ---
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Re: [GTALUG] decent cheap ChromeOS tablet -- can run debian in a container

2022-01-23 Thread D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk 
Nice review: 

Includes discussion of Linux on the tablet.
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Re: [GTALUG] decent cheap ChromeOS tablet -- can run debian in a container

2022-01-14 Thread D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk 
| From: o1bigtenor via talk 

| Is dual boot better than blowing away the android system and installing
| an OS?

I think that you mean blowing away the ChromeOS system.

I don't know if that is possible.  I know that this was possible on at
least some x86-based CromeOS clamshells.  The Arm world is less
standardized so it's not a sure thing.  Best to search for others who
have done this.

In my modest experience most x86 boxes sold with Windows can be easily
switched to Linux.  That's a better direction to go for Linux on bare
metal.

| I'm a long time debian user - - - trying to decide between debian or
| galliumOS - - - suggestions?

I have no experience will galliumOS.
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Re: [GTALUG] decent cheap ChromeOS tablet -- can run debian in a container

2022-01-14 Thread o1bigtenor via talk 
On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 11:06 AM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk
 wrote:
>
> | From: James Knott via talk 
> |
> | I borrowed one from the Mississauga Library and wasn't impressed. You pretty
> | much had to do everything in the "cloud", though having Linux built in would
> | improve on that.
>
> The idea of ChromeOS is "cloud first".  But there is some provision
> for doing offline work.
>
> If you use Android apps on this tablet, you get and Android
> experience.  But better because you device support is much longer.
>
> If you install Linux, you get a Linux experience.  With the expected
> amount of cloudiness.

Chose to get one of these babies for trying a tablet.

wondering -- - so a couple questions:

Is dual boot better than blowing away the android system and installing
an OS?

I'm a long time debian user - - - trying to decide between debian or
galliumOS - - - suggestions?

TIA
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Re: [GTALUG] decent cheap ChromeOS tablet -- can run debian in a container

2022-01-06 Thread D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk 
| From: James Knott via talk 
| 
| I borrowed one from the Mississauga Library and wasn't impressed. You pretty
| much had to do everything in the "cloud", though having Linux built in would
| improve on that.

The idea of ChromeOS is "cloud first".  But there is some provision
for doing offline work.

If you use Android apps on this tablet, you get and Android
experience.  But better because you device support is much longer.

If you install Linux, you get a Linux experience.  With the expected
amount of cloudiness.
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Re: [GTALUG] decent cheap ChromeOS tablet -- can run debian in a container

2021-12-31 Thread James Knott via talk 

On 2021-12-31 7:16 p.m., William Park via talk wrote:
I thought Google is dropping Chromebook? 


I borrowed one from the Mississauga Library and wasn't impressed. You 
pretty much had to do everything in the "cloud", though having Linux 
built in would improve on that.


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Re: [GTALUG] decent cheap ChromeOS tablet -- can run debian in a container

2021-12-31 Thread William Park via talk 

I thought Google is dropping Chromebook?

On 12/31/21 5:46 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:

https://forums.redflagdeals.com/lenovo-canada-chromebook-10e-tablet-129-less-rakuten-2501804/

This is $129 tablet seems to be aimed at kids in schools.  It's not
particularly powerful, but it has a nice screen (1920x1200, 400nit),
battery, and a solid build.

This version of ChromeOS invites you to create a container with debian in
it.  The debian is from the debian repos: not customized.

I've done so.  I can run xterm, but it is awkward without a keyboard and
mouse.  I've loaded gnome desktop but I'm not sure how to start it.  I
wanted to use gnome's on-screen keyboard.

Seems like a fun toy for this price.  The weakest point is that it has
only 32G of eMMC (disk) and no slot for an SD card.

It has only one USB port and that is used for power.  I was able to use a
USB-C hub with "power delivery" to add more peripherals.

The sale might end at any time.  Perhaps the end of the day or the end of
the weekend.
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[GTALUG] decent cheap ChromeOS tablet -- can run debian in a container

2021-12-31 Thread D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk 
https://forums.redflagdeals.com/lenovo-canada-chromebook-10e-tablet-129-less-rakuten-2501804/

This is $129 tablet seems to be aimed at kids in schools.  It's not 
particularly powerful, but it has a nice screen (1920x1200, 400nit), 
battery, and a solid build.

This version of ChromeOS invites you to create a container with debian in 
it.  The debian is from the debian repos: not customized.

I've done so.  I can run xterm, but it is awkward without a keyboard and 
mouse.  I've loaded gnome desktop but I'm not sure how to start it.  I 
wanted to use gnome's on-screen keyboard.

Seems like a fun toy for this price.  The weakest point is that it has 
only 32G of eMMC (disk) and no slot for an SD card.

It has only one USB port and that is used for power.  I was able to use a 
USB-C hub with "power delivery" to add more peripherals.

The sale might end at any time.  Perhaps the end of the day or the end of 
the weekend.
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