[OSM-talk] Disappearing roads

[William Gresham]

I modified Interstate 287 and New Jersey Route 208 in Mahwah Township, New 
Jersey, but I noticed that while later additions to the map were noted, part of 
a nearby road (County Route 694 in Morris County) and the stretches of I-287 I 
had used parallel road functions on had disappeared. I used the parallel 
function on Woodbridge Centre Drive in Woodbridge as well as on the stretch of 
US 1 & 9 from Woodbridge to Newark Liberty International Airport, and they 
appeared with no issue. This issue lies with the Mapnik rendering. What could 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Seasonal Roads?

[Stephen Hope]

Start using it - the ultimate test of tag in OSM is whether it is used or not.

However, if people are actively discussing it, try and get a consensus first.

Stephen


2008/12/11 Colin McGregor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> So, what can I do to help advance the cause of getting a seasonal tag
> (be the season "winter" or "dry season") into OSM?
>

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Re: [OSM-talk] addressing

[Matias D'Ambrosio]

On Wednesday 10 December 2008 15:12:46 Shaun McDonald wrote:
>
> South Bridge in Edinburgh has the numbers run up one side, then back
> down the other.
 I just looked at Edinburgh and all I can say is, I'm sorry! Looks like a mess 
to map, excellent work :)

> I find it very strange that you city blocks are so consistently 100
> metres by 100 metres. In my experience they are some random size.
> Consistent block sizes and grid road layouts are just so strange. It's
> trunk and branch cul-de-sacs that are the foray of the planners.
 I guess I just want you to hate me a little, here is my city, we often 
complain about the poor quality of the grid:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-38.7142&lon=-62.2544&zoom=13&layers=0B00FTF

 Pay no attention to the weird mix of primary/secondary/tertiary, we're soon 
having a meeting to improve that.

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] ODbL: Who is the licensor / whose "database"is it?

[Peter Miller]

Where is the official input from the foundation to all this?

Where is the legal input to the conversation? My legal advice on  
copyright is at odds with what is proposed here. I wonder what the  
OSMF lawyer is saying.

Is anyone from the foundation going to engage with this list and say  
what is going on?

Board members at the last directors meeting were described as  
'confused' and 'perplexed'. Do they actually know what is happening or  
is SteveC playing this one single handed.

My lawyer asked me what the structure of the licence was in Octover. I  
relayed her questions to the foundation on the 24th Oct and didn't get  
a response. I asked the foundation again on the 10th Nov for a  
progress report on an answer. I sent an open letter to all the board  
members on the 24th Nov asking the same question prior to their  
meeting on the 25th. Finally I emailed SteveC asking for a copy of the  
new licence on the 3rd Dec and have only had an acknowledgement of  
receipt and no licence text and no answers.

Fi, In relation to the structure of the licence this is what our  
lawyer asked and this is one of the questions to which I am awaiting  
an answer. Personally In think our lawyer has got to wrong and that  
the intention is that the contributors do not licence their work to  
the foundation but licence it to everyone and the foundation purely  
brings it all together, but it is worrying that it is that unclear to  
another lawyer and also that I have not had any serious response from  
the foundation to the question.

Please don't ask me to interpret what the lawyer means, I am not a  
lawyer but I do know a good one who wants to help if we are able to.  
This is what she says:


 > > > 1) Structure
 > > >
 > > > I have three broad concerns in this regard.
 > > >
 > > > Firstly, although the Draft Licence purports to licence rights in
 > > > the OSM to third parties, the grant of corresponding rights by
 > > > contributors to the OSM is inadequate. There is a reference in  
the
 > > > OSM login to the Creative Commons "Attribution - ShareAlike 3.0
 > > > Unported" terms, but these are a set of terms and conditions
 > > > relating to the licensing of a work (i.e. the OSM) to end users.
 > > > This simple reference is insufficient to provide the necessary
 > > > rights and protections needed in respect of the material  
supplied by
 > > > contributors to the OSM. This concerns not only the OSM  
Foundation
 > > > (as licensor), but also those who licence the use of the OSM
 > > > (licensees).
 > > >
 > > > I would advise that any contributors to the OSM should be made to
 > > > click through an agreement box (either each time they make a
 > > > contribution or when they register as members with a right to  
make
 > > > contributions), whereby they agree to a set of terms which
 > > > specifically relate to the making of contributions to the OSM,  
these
 > > > terms need to be easily accessed (this is usually done by means  
of a
 > > > dialogue box attached to the agreement box).
 > > >
 > > > Secondly, the nature of the current Draft Licence is far too
 > > > unspecific and runs a considerable risk of being unenforceable.  
For
 > > > example, the lack of any identification of the Licensor and the
 > > > constant reference to unspecified multiple additional/alternative
 > > > terms which may or may not apply.
 > > >
 > > > In order to be enforceable and to have the legal effect which is
 > > > intended a contract needs to have clarity as to certain basic
 > > > matters. For example, who the parties are, what the subject  
matter
 > > > of the contract is and what terms are incorporated into the
 > > > contract. In my view the current Draft Licence and related  
licensing
 > > > arrangements fall foul of all of these.
 > > >
 > > > I realize that the aim is to make the licensing arrangements as
 > > > flexible as possible; however, this can easily be achieved whilst
 > > > not compromising the value of the licence itself. I should also  
add
 > > > that an applicable law should be applied to the licence(s). The
 > > > attempt to make the licences subject to all national laws will  
only
 > > > lead to uncertainty and costly disputes and is un-necessary.
 > > >
 > > > Thirdly, whilst I appreciate that a number of different rights  
exist
 > > > in the OSM it would be preferable to deal with these all in a  
single
 > > > licence, rather than expecting licensees to enter into a number  
of
 > > > different agreements. I understand that the current intention  
is to
 > > > have individual licences relating respectively to the database,  
data
 > > > and facts. I may be missing something, but I can not envisage  
how a
 > > > licensee could use parts of the database in isolation from the  
data
 > > > or factual information which is contained in the OSM. To the
 > > > contrary, it would seem to be apparent that licensees are
 > > > predominately using the data contained in the OSM.
 > > >
 > > 

Re: [OSM-talk] addressing

[Matias D'Ambrosio]

On Wednesday 10 December 2008 15:12:46 you wrote:
> South Bridge in Edinburgh has the numbers run up one side, then back
> down the other. I have come across some residential streets that are
> numbered all the way around. It's very rare around here for houses to
> be numbered based on the end of the road. What happens when you extend
> that end of the road?
 No idea, around here they are numbered from the start :) If you go past the 
start of a street, another street starts, so it can always be extended at the 
end.

> I find it very strange that you city blocks are so consistently 100
> metres by 100 metres. In my experience they are some random size.
> Consistent block sizes and grid road layouts are just so strange. It's
> trunk and branch cul-de-sacs that are the foray of the planners.
 Oh, no, that's the ideal, only a few cities are close to perfect. There are 
certainly forks, curves and cul de sacs, but they are the exception, not the 
rule. I have seen areas of Italy for example that don't seem to have a single 
stretch of road that's straight for more than 50 metres.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Are there any ways with street number ranges in the OSM database?

[Dan Putler]

Hi Jochen,

Thanks for this. When I first posted I had in mind ways with address
ranges (I've got the North American public road network file mindset),
but we can also have a point address geocoder embedded within PAGC as
well, so Prague looks like a good potential solution to our needs.

Dan

On Wed, 2008-12-10 at 19:42 +0100, Jochen Topf wrote:
> If you need a city with exhaustively mapped addresses have a look at
> some of the Czech cities, for instance Prague:
> 
> http://tools.geofabrik.de/osmi/?view=addresses&lon=14.44067&lat=50.07304&zoom=15&opacity=0.38&overlays=nodes_with_addresses_defined
> 
> It looks like they have a node for every address.
> 
> Jochen
> 
> On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 09:04:35AM -0800, Dan Putler wrote:
> > Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Are there any ways with street number ranges in the
> > OSM database?
> > From: Dan Putler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: Jochen Topf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Cc: talk 
> > Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 09:04:35 -0800
> > 
> > Hi Jochen,
> > 
> > The purpose for my inquiry on this topic was to see if there was an area
> > that has been extensively addressed, and could be used for the
> > demonstration site we are trying to develop for PAGC. Based on the
> > thread, it appears the Karlsruhe is the most extensively addressed area
> > at this point, but only a fairly small proportion of it has been
> > addressed at this point, too small a proportion to be used for the PAGC
> > demonstration site at this moment (this will likely change in the future
> > as more of the city is addressed). This was really the upshot of my
> > comment about using OSM for geocoding being a work in progress.
> > 
> > As I know you are aware, postal addresses are very messy things, that
> > differ from country to country (and even jurisdiction to jurisdiction in
> > some cases). As a result, I think you are correct that a one size fits
> > all tagging scheme will never be developed (or would even be desirable).
> > Having said this, from a data user point of view, keeping the number of
> > different schemes to the minimal acceptable number really makes life
> > easier.
> > 
> > Dan
> > 
> > On Wed, 2008-12-10 at 11:52 +0100, Jochen Topf wrote:
> > > On Tue, Dec 09, 2008 at 09:56:53AM -0800, Dan Putler wrote:
> > > > house number addressing in OSM, it was very useful. Given the related,
> > > > and very active, "addressing" thread, it sounds like several issues need
> > > > to be ironed out before there is a "final" OSM addressing scheme. From a
> > > 
> > > I never expect there to be one final addressing scheme. The Karlsruhe
> > > scheme was intended as: We start here in Karlsruhe with something that
> > > might work for us. If it also works for you thats fine, if not maybe you
> > > can amend it, if it still doesn't fit, come up with something entirely
> > > new. So far the scheme has seen some amendments and has more than 900
> > > users who have used it. We'll see where it goes.
> > > 
> > > > practical point of view, it should be possible to do street intersection
> > > > geocoding using OSM data as it currently exists, but the use of OSM data
> > > > for other forms of geocoding is a work in progress.
> > > 
> > > What exactly do you want to do that doesn't work yet?
> > > 
> > > Jochen
> > -- 
> > Dan Putler
> > Sauder School of Business
> > University of British Columbia
> > 
> > 
> 
-- 
Dan Putler
Sauder School of Business
University of British Columbia


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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] ODbL: Who is the licensor / whose "database" is it?

[Sunburned Surveyor]

Although option 3 as discussed above is likely the most legally fuzzy,
it is also likely the most palatable to contributors.

Landon

On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 1:41 PM, Frederik Ramm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
>   there is another open question concerning the implementation of the
> planned ODbL. To recap, the ODbL/FDL Duo will acknowledge that the
> individual data items are not subject to copyright, but as a database
> they are protected.
>
> The question is: Where is the database created and who is, therefore,
> the licensor?
>
> In our current (faulty) assumption about CC-BY-SA, we say that a
> copyrighted work is created by the mapper who then licenses it under
> CC-BY-SA and allows OpenStreetMap (as well as anybody else) to use it.
> OSM does not have a special position in this construct; OSM is just one
> of many potential users of that mapper's CC-BY-SA licensed data. OSM
> collects and merges many CC-BY-SA licensed bits of data but so might
> anybody else. Ownership and copyright remains with the original author.
>
> In the future, legal protection will only arise from the fact that the
> data is part of a larger whole, where non-trivial work has been done to
> create that "whole". The database directive assigns ownership of the
> "whole" to whoever has done the work to assemble and arrange the data in
> the database.
>
> I can see three possible interpretations:
>
> 1. Each mapper has his own database, of which he makes a copy available
> to OSM under ODbL which then creates a derived database. In that case,
> of course, each mapper is a licensor, and OSM is a giant work derived
> from many individual databases.
>
> 2. Each mapper only has an unprotected pile of data items which he
> uploads to OSM without any license; only by incorporating it into OSM is
> the database created, and the OSM Foundation as the operator of the
> servers on which all this happens is the creator of the database. OSMF
> is the sole licensor of OSM data, all database directive protection
> applies only to OSMF.
>
> 3. Each mapper only has an unprotected pile of data items which he
> uploads to OSM without any licens; only by incorporating it into OSM is
> the database created. In uploading his data, the mapper becomes a
> "co-creator" of the central database and he is entitled to protection
> from the database directive; however he has agreed not to exercise any
> rights arising from this "co-creatorship" as long as OSMF distributes
> the resulting database under ODbL.
>
> I am not sure if this is perfectly clear to everyone but these three
> options are vastly different and probably each carries along with it a
> wholly different bag of legal implications. Option 3, especially, would
> require a hitherto completely undiscussed sort of legal contract between
> the mapper and the operator of the database servers ("I help you to
> create this big database, and I agree to do X/not to do Y as long as you
> publish the database under ODbL"). Option 2 does not have such a
> contract between the mapper and the server operator, but basically
> assigns all database directive protection to the server operator (think
> the "foundation taken over by Navteq carpetbaggers, rescinds ODbL, goes
> PD" scenario). Option 1 does not have such a contract either, relying on
> the ODbL itself instead, but this only works if whatever the mapper
> hacks into JOSM/Potlatch can be construed to be a database in itself.
>
> I'm sure there are also options 1a, 2b, or 4, but I couldn't think of
> them right now.
>
> In my eyes this is an important topic to think about BEFORE selecting a
> license that is based on the database directive, not something that
> should be left for later as an "implementation detail".
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
> --
> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED]  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>
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>

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[OSM-legal-talk] ODbL: Who is the licensor / whose "database" is it?

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

   there is another open question concerning the implementation of the 
planned ODbL. To recap, the ODbL/FDL Duo will acknowledge that the 
individual data items are not subject to copyright, but as a database 
they are protected.

The question is: Where is the database created and who is, therefore, 
the licensor?

In our current (faulty) assumption about CC-BY-SA, we say that a 
copyrighted work is created by the mapper who then licenses it under 
CC-BY-SA and allows OpenStreetMap (as well as anybody else) to use it. 
OSM does not have a special position in this construct; OSM is just one 
of many potential users of that mapper's CC-BY-SA licensed data. OSM 
collects and merges many CC-BY-SA licensed bits of data but so might 
anybody else. Ownership and copyright remains with the original author.

In the future, legal protection will only arise from the fact that the 
data is part of a larger whole, where non-trivial work has been done to 
create that "whole". The database directive assigns ownership of the 
"whole" to whoever has done the work to assemble and arrange the data in 
the database.

I can see three possible interpretations:

1. Each mapper has his own database, of which he makes a copy available 
to OSM under ODbL which then creates a derived database. In that case, 
of course, each mapper is a licensor, and OSM is a giant work derived 
from many individual databases.

2. Each mapper only has an unprotected pile of data items which he 
uploads to OSM without any license; only by incorporating it into OSM is 
the database created, and the OSM Foundation as the operator of the 
servers on which all this happens is the creator of the database. OSMF 
is the sole licensor of OSM data, all database directive protection 
applies only to OSMF.

3. Each mapper only has an unprotected pile of data items which he 
uploads to OSM without any licens; only by incorporating it into OSM is 
the database created. In uploading his data, the mapper becomes a 
"co-creator" of the central database and he is entitled to protection 
from the database directive; however he has agreed not to exercise any 
rights arising from this "co-creatorship" as long as OSMF distributes 
the resulting database under ODbL.

I am not sure if this is perfectly clear to everyone but these three 
options are vastly different and probably each carries along with it a 
wholly different bag of legal implications. Option 3, especially, would 
require a hitherto completely undiscussed sort of legal contract between 
the mapper and the operator of the database servers ("I help you to 
create this big database, and I agree to do X/not to do Y as long as you 
publish the database under ODbL"). Option 2 does not have such a 
contract between the mapper and the server operator, but basically 
assigns all database directive protection to the server operator (think 
the "foundation taken over by Navteq carpetbaggers, rescinds ODbL, goes 
PD" scenario). Option 1 does not have such a contract either, relying on 
the ODbL itself instead, but this only works if whatever the mapper 
hacks into JOSM/Potlatch can be construed to be a database in itself.

I'm sure there are also options 1a, 2b, or 4, but I couldn't think of 
them right now.

In my eyes this is an important topic to think about BEFORE selecting a 
license that is based on the database directive, not something that 
should be left for later as an "implementation detail".

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED]  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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[OSM-talk] [ANN] Gebabbel 0.4 released

[Christoph Eckert]

Hi,

I just released Gebabbel 0.4. Get it while it's hot:
http://www.christeck.de/wp/?p=138

Hope you like it,

ce


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Re: [OSM-talk] Seasonal Roads?

[Colin McGregor]

On 12/10/08, Iván Sánchez Ortega <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> El Miércoles, 10 de Diciembre de 2008, Colin McGregor escribió:
>> Now mapping a service road is not an issue, but what makes this one of
>> interest is that it is closed to motorised vehicles during winter, and
>> during winter serves as a pedestrian trail. In other words a seasonal
>> road, so, question is how to tag a road like that? It does serve as a
>> pedestrian trail year round, but during summer cars are allowed... Tag
>> it as a trail or tag it as a service road?
>
> I proposed this a while ago:
>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Proposed_features/Dry_weather
>
> The reason was to be able to upload some Tanzania data, where roads get
> flooded in the wet season. I hadn't got a lot of time to work on that issue.

Yes, exactly the same sort of issue. In the case of the service road I
saw, I suspect the issue is the city doesn't want to be bothered
removing snow from the road during winter, and during spring the
Humber river can more-or-less be counted on to flood the road. Both
are good reasons to keep motorised vehicles off what is a very modest
paved service road for a number of months each year.

So, what can I do to help advance the cause of getting a seasonal tag
(be the season "winter" or "dry season") into OSM?

Colin McGregor

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Re: [OSM-talk] Seasonal Roads?

[Iván Sánchez Ortega]

El Miércoles, 10 de Diciembre de 2008, Colin McGregor escribió:
> Now mapping a service road is not an issue, but what makes this one of
> interest is that it is closed to motorised vehicles during winter, and
> during winter serves as a pedestrian trail. In other words a seasonal
> road, so, question is how to tag a road like that? It does serve as a
> pedestrian trail year round, but during summer cars are allowed... Tag
> it as a trail or tag it as a service road?

I proposed this a while ago:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Proposed_features/Dry_weather

The reason was to be able to upload some Tanzania data, where roads get 
flooded in the wet season. I hadn't got a lot of time to work on that issue.


-- 
--
Iván Sánchez Ortega <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

MSN:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Jabber:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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[OSM-talk] Seasonal Roads?

[Colin McGregor]

I tossed this out to the talk-ca list, and didn't get a response, so
let me toss this out here...

About a week and a half ago I was in Toronto, Ontario's west end near
the Humber River, and I saw (but didn't map), a service road that runs
beside a section of the Humber River.

Now mapping a service road is not an issue, but what makes this one of
interest is that it is closed to motorised vehicles during winter, and
during winter serves as a pedestrian trail. In other words a seasonal
road, so, question is how to tag a road like that? It does serve as a
pedestrian trail year round, but during summer cars are allowed... Tag
it as a trail or tag it as a service road?

Obviously not the only sort of seasonal road we have in Canada, I'm
thinking about the ice roads in the arctic, where for most of the year
you might be talking a lake, but for several weeks each year when the
ice gets thick enough, tractor trailers trucks will be running along
well defined routes over the ice... Again how to tag a road that is
only in operation for a certain part of the year?

Yes, I have seen :

  http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Access_restrictions

that would kind-of/sort-of address the above issue but for now what do
people suggest?

Thanks.

Colin McGregor

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Re: [OSM-talk] Are there any ways with street number ranges in the OSM database?

[Jochen Topf]

If you need a city with exhaustively mapped addresses have a look at
some of the Czech cities, for instance Prague:

http://tools.geofabrik.de/osmi/?view=addresses&lon=14.44067&lat=50.07304&zoom=15&opacity=0.38&overlays=nodes_with_addresses_defined

It looks like they have a node for every address.

Jochen

On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 09:04:35AM -0800, Dan Putler wrote:
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Are there any ways with street number ranges in the
>   OSM database?
> From: Dan Putler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Jochen Topf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: talk 
> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 09:04:35 -0800
> 
> Hi Jochen,
> 
> The purpose for my inquiry on this topic was to see if there was an area
> that has been extensively addressed, and could be used for the
> demonstration site we are trying to develop for PAGC. Based on the
> thread, it appears the Karlsruhe is the most extensively addressed area
> at this point, but only a fairly small proportion of it has been
> addressed at this point, too small a proportion to be used for the PAGC
> demonstration site at this moment (this will likely change in the future
> as more of the city is addressed). This was really the upshot of my
> comment about using OSM for geocoding being a work in progress.
> 
> As I know you are aware, postal addresses are very messy things, that
> differ from country to country (and even jurisdiction to jurisdiction in
> some cases). As a result, I think you are correct that a one size fits
> all tagging scheme will never be developed (or would even be desirable).
> Having said this, from a data user point of view, keeping the number of
> different schemes to the minimal acceptable number really makes life
> easier.
> 
> Dan
> 
> On Wed, 2008-12-10 at 11:52 +0100, Jochen Topf wrote:
> > On Tue, Dec 09, 2008 at 09:56:53AM -0800, Dan Putler wrote:
> > > house number addressing in OSM, it was very useful. Given the related,
> > > and very active, "addressing" thread, it sounds like several issues need
> > > to be ironed out before there is a "final" OSM addressing scheme. From a
> > 
> > I never expect there to be one final addressing scheme. The Karlsruhe
> > scheme was intended as: We start here in Karlsruhe with something that
> > might work for us. If it also works for you thats fine, if not maybe you
> > can amend it, if it still doesn't fit, come up with something entirely
> > new. So far the scheme has seen some amendments and has more than 900
> > users who have used it. We'll see where it goes.
> > 
> > > practical point of view, it should be possible to do street intersection
> > > geocoding using OSM data as it currently exists, but the use of OSM data
> > > for other forms of geocoding is a work in progress.
> > 
> > What exactly do you want to do that doesn't work yet?
> > 
> > Jochen
> -- 
> Dan Putler
> Sauder School of Business
> University of British Columbia
> 
> 

-- 
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[OSM-talk] A new version of GpsMid has been released

[Kai Krueger]

Hello everyone,

we are pleased to announce a new version of GpsMid, with many new
features since the previous release.

GpsMid is a fully offline vector based map application for the mobile
phone using OpenStreetMap data. Some of the key features supported are
a freely zoomable map with the ability to search for names, search for
the closest points of interest of a given type, use both external or
internal GPS receivers, record GPX tracks, management of waypoints,
voice based navigation, geotagging of pictures and audio, as well as a
highly customizable map style sheets.

GpsMid works on a large variety of of smart and feature phones that
can run Java midlets, so hopefully it will work on yours as well.


New features in GpsMid 0.4.51:

- Rotating  the map in the direction of movement for easier orientation
- Osm2GpsMid GUI for easier map creation
- Display of one way arrows and street names in the map
- Auto reconnect to a bluetooth GPS receiver to increase robustness
- An odometer to show how far you have gone during track recordings
- Improved waypoint entry for geocaching
- Recording of audio from within GpsMid for audio mapping.
- Geotagging of pictures taken with GpsMid
- Improved routing with voice instructions (still somewhat experimental)
- Many more small improvements and bug fixes


If you are interested, more information and the program itself can be
found on our website (http://gpsmid.sourceforge.net/) or on the
project webpage (http://sourceforge.net/projects/gpsmid/). To get
GpsMid running on your phone, simply download the Java program
Osm2GpsMid to your PC. You then specify which area you want included
in the map and give it a .osm file. From this Osm2GpsMid will bundle a
ready to use midlet that can be copied to your phone and run.

If you just quickly want to give GpsMid a try and don't want to create
a midlet yourself yet, there are some pre-bundled sample midlets
available on the website (London, Berlin Munich and Hamburg)  which
you can download and directly copy onto your phone. There is also a
workable demo app on the website in case your browser supports Java
applets.


we hope you'll enjoy the new release and are happy for any feedback
you might have,

The GpsMid team

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Re: [OSM-talk] addressing

[Shaun McDonald]

On 10 Dec 2008, at 16:41, Matias D'Ambrosio wrote:


On Wednesday 10 December 2008 12:04:13 you wrote:

In your country, perhaps. In my country, that's EXACTLY what
the address is.
The address is the street and distance from the street's
starting point, in
metres.


What happens if two houses are built facing each other on opposite
sides of the street? Wouldn't they get assigned the same number? Or
does someone arbitrarily decide which is closer and increase or
decrease one of the numbers by 1?
Hmm, strange country you live in if houses are 1 metre wide, houses  
here are
usually 10 metres wide. And each side of the street has even or odd  
numbers,
although unusual (I can't think of any such street at this moment)  
it's

possible to have them mixed.


South Bridge in Edinburgh has the numbers run up one side, then back  
down the other. I have come across some residential streets that are  
numbered all the way around. It's very rare around here for houses to  
be numbered based on the end of the road. What happens when you extend  
that end of the road?



Each house has an assigned number, which I think
can be chosen by the owner (I don't know exactly when it's chosen, and
whether it can be changed, or how easily), that number is within the  
range

the house occupies.
What's also important, is the usage. It is very common to say "Alem  
Avenue
1200" to refer to a corner or the block face that has the range  
1200-1299.
Using "Alem Avenue and San Juan Street" is unusual unless both are  
well known
streets. Each city block is 100 metres by 100 metres, so counting  
blocks is
helpful if there are no signs on the corners and houses don't have  
numbers on
the front (or they are not easily visible from a car), which is not  
uncommon,

in fact I used this method of finding a house just last week. Mighty
convenient, let me tell you :)


I find it very strange that you city blocks are so consistently 100  
metres by 100 metres. In my experience they are some random size.  
Consistent block sizes and grid road layouts are just so strange. It's  
trunk and branch cul-de-sacs that are the foray of the planners.


Shaun



smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
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Re: [OSM-talk] Are there any ways with street number ranges in the OSM database?

[Dan Putler]

Hi Jochen,

The purpose for my inquiry on this topic was to see if there was an area
that has been extensively addressed, and could be used for the
demonstration site we are trying to develop for PAGC. Based on the
thread, it appears the Karlsruhe is the most extensively addressed area
at this point, but only a fairly small proportion of it has been
addressed at this point, too small a proportion to be used for the PAGC
demonstration site at this moment (this will likely change in the future
as more of the city is addressed). This was really the upshot of my
comment about using OSM for geocoding being a work in progress.

As I know you are aware, postal addresses are very messy things, that
differ from country to country (and even jurisdiction to jurisdiction in
some cases). As a result, I think you are correct that a one size fits
all tagging scheme will never be developed (or would even be desirable).
Having said this, from a data user point of view, keeping the number of
different schemes to the minimal acceptable number really makes life
easier.

Dan

On Wed, 2008-12-10 at 11:52 +0100, Jochen Topf wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 09, 2008 at 09:56:53AM -0800, Dan Putler wrote:
> > house number addressing in OSM, it was very useful. Given the related,
> > and very active, "addressing" thread, it sounds like several issues need
> > to be ironed out before there is a "final" OSM addressing scheme. From a
> 
> I never expect there to be one final addressing scheme. The Karlsruhe
> scheme was intended as: We start here in Karlsruhe with something that
> might work for us. If it also works for you thats fine, if not maybe you
> can amend it, if it still doesn't fit, come up with something entirely
> new. So far the scheme has seen some amendments and has more than 900
> users who have used it. We'll see where it goes.
> 
> > practical point of view, it should be possible to do street intersection
> > geocoding using OSM data as it currently exists, but the use of OSM data
> > for other forms of geocoding is a work in progress.
> 
> What exactly do you want to do that doesn't work yet?
> 
> Jochen
-- 
Dan Putler
Sauder School of Business
University of British Columbia


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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Removal of CC-SA-BY licensed data from OSM after ODbL takes effect

[Rob Myers]

On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 4:35 PM, 80n <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Given the very cautious approach OSM has had to copyright infringement up to
> now, this does seem like a rather reckless and uncharacteristic position for
> us to take, but I don't think I've heard any other proposals for how to deal
> with this.

Would it be possible for CC to offer a licence transition clause for
"large scale open geodata projects" in the same way the FSF has
offered an FDL -> BY-SA get out for Wikipedia in the current minor FDL
revision? The first addition of data to OSM after this could then be
used to relicence the resulting derivative database under the new
licence.

- Rob.

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Re: [OSM-talk] addressing

[Matias D'Ambrosio]

On Wednesday 10 December 2008 12:04:13 you wrote:
> >  In your country, perhaps. In my country, that's EXACTLY what
> > the address is.
> > The address is the street and distance from the street's
> > starting point, in
> > metres.
>
> What happens if two houses are built facing each other on opposite
> sides of the street? Wouldn't they get assigned the same number? Or
> does someone arbitrarily decide which is closer and increase or
> decrease one of the numbers by 1?
 Hmm, strange country you live in if houses are 1 metre wide, houses here are 
usually 10 metres wide. And each side of the street has even or odd numbers, 
although unusual (I can't think of any such street at this moment) it's 
possible to have them mixed. Each house has an assigned number, which I think 
can be chosen by the owner (I don't know exactly when it's chosen, and 
whether it can be changed, or how easily), that number is within the range 
the house occupies.
 What's also important, is the usage. It is very common to say "Alem Avenue 
1200" to refer to a corner or the block face that has the range 1200-1299. 
Using "Alem Avenue and San Juan Street" is unusual unless both are well known 
streets. Each city block is 100 metres by 100 metres, so counting blocks is 
helpful if there are no signs on the corners and houses don't have numbers on 
the front (or they are not easily visible from a car), which is not uncommon, 
in fact I used this method of finding a house just last week. Mighty 
convenient, let me tell you :)

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Removal of CC-SA-BY licensed data from OSM after ODbL takes effect

[80n]

On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 10:11 AM, Frederik Ramm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> 80n wrote:
> > The key phrase is "cannot be contacted" and the import being that if
> > they were contactable they would probably agree to the new license.  If
> > they subsequently make contact and don't agree to the new license then
> > they can legitimately claim that their copyright is being infringed and
> > their data would be removed at that time.
>
> Plus any data that has been derived from their data, as described in
> Ævar's example?


Yes, definitely.  Anything based or derived from their original contribution
would also have to be removed.  CC-BY-SA is viral, there is no choice.

In Ævar's specific example if the POI location was based on GPS data then it
has not been derived from the surrounding road network. If the POI location
was based on the knowledge that it is on a particular street corner and that
corner is defined by the existing road network, then of-course it has been
derived.

Since there is no information that can tell us how the POI's location was
determined, then the prudent solution is to delete any POI that is within,
say, 50m of any road that is removed from the database.


> If you assert the copyrightability of even the smallest contribution,
> then you will have to choose a very narrow definition of what consists
> a derived work. Ohterwise it would probably only need a handful of
> non-consenting users who contributed to the London dataset back in 2006
> to basically have to remove all London data today.
>

I don't think anyone is asserting that fair use rules apply and that we can
just get away with ignoring minor contributors.

What I think is intended here is that we may have to just assume it's ok
until such time as the copyright holder re-appears.  If they don't appear
then, yes we've violated their copyright but they haven't sued anyone.  And
if they do appear then they can just politely ask for their data to be
removed, or sue anyone and everyone who has used the data under the new
license.  Hopefully the former not the latter.

Given the very cautious approach OSM has had to copyright infringement up to
now, this does seem like a rather reckless and uncharacteristic position for
us to take, but I don't think I've heard any other proposals for how to deal
with this.

80n



>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] addressing

[D Tucny]

2008/12/10 Ed Loach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> >  In your country, perhaps. In my country, that's EXACTLY what
> > the address is.
> > The address is the street and distance from the street's
> > starting point, in
> > metres.
>
> What happens if two houses are built facing each other on opposite
> sides of the street? Wouldn't they get assigned the same number? Or
> does someone arbitrarily decide which is closer and increase or
> decrease one of the numbers by 1?
>

With such a structured system, do you think the planning codes would allow
this? I guess they have to be offset by at least 1m...

d
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Re: [OSM-talk] Updated view of 'A year of edits on OSM' and also Santa's Routes!

[Gustav Foseid]

On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 9:32 PM, Ed Loach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  I don't know Norwegian, but the best translation of Gråsonen that I can
> come up with is "grey zone".
>

"Gråsonen" or "grey zone" is a  disputed area between the (undisputed)
exclusive economic zones of Norway and Russia. In my opinion, it makes
little sense to have this area marked as a administrative boundary of level
2, as long as we do not these zones in the first place.

A sketch is here: http://www.sikkerhetspolitikk.no/kart/hav/2.htm

 - Gustav
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Re: [OSM-talk] addressing

[Ed Loach]

>  In your country, perhaps. In my country, that's EXACTLY what
> the address is.
> The address is the street and distance from the street's
> starting point, in
> metres.

What happens if two houses are built facing each other on opposite
sides of the street? Wouldn't they get assigned the same number? Or
does someone arbitrarily decide which is closer and increase or
decrease one of the numbers by 1?

Ed



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Re: [OSM-talk] addressing

[Matias D'Ambrosio]

On Tuesday 09 December 2008 11:37:13 Frederik Ramm wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Matt Amos wrote:
> > sure, editor support isn't 100% yet, but why re-create a poor-man's
> > relations with name-based references, when we already have "proper"
> > relations?
>
> In my eyes an address is not a relation. It comes close, but a house
> *can* have an address that has nothing to do with the road that passes
> it.
 In your country, perhaps. In my country, that's EXACTLY what the address is. 
The address is the street and distance from the street's starting point, in 
metres.

> The address "31 So-and-So Street" does not mean that this is the 
> 31st house on So-and-So Street, it doesn't even necessarily mean that
> the entrance is via So-and-So Street or that it is in the vicinity of
> 30, 32, or 33...
 In my country, which has a very sane and predictable scheme, there is usually 
a central square which is the centre of the city, from which the main streets 
start, and from these start other streets (depending on terrain and proper 
planning it might end up as a perfect grid, cf. La Plata, Argentina). 31 
would in fact be before 32 and after 30.
 There may be other countries using the same/similar system. I believe the USA 
is one? And probably a few other countries in South America. I'm guessing 
being 'new' countries helps keeping things sane, we're still not overcome by 
entropy :)

> I view an address as an individual attribute of a 
> certain property that is often similar to addresses of neighbouring
> properties, but need not be.
 Cultural issue, no doubt. One map, two systems. Kidding :D
 I do think we need more than one system, and people have to stop imposing 
*their* view/system on other countries.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Updated view of 'A year of edits on OSM' and alsoSanta's Routes!

[Peter Miller]

We have lots of things on our wish list and agree that having a pan  
and zoom buttons up to the top right of the image with a + button to  
the top right! It is however a different sort of scheduling problem to  
batch processing large views which is what we are working on at the  
moment. We would love to do both but are starting with the batch  
processing side of things and then we will see where we go from there.

If you want to keep in touch with what we are doing then do subscribe  
to our blog which is not every active at the moment but will be the  
main communications medium for announcements.
http://itoworld.blogspot.com/

Do also put any ideas and requests on the OSM Mapper page on the wiki.  
We do review it when we are making changes and improvements.
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/OSM_Mapper


Regards,



Peter



On 10 Dec 2008, at 12:06, Iván Sánchez Ortega wrote:

>
> On Wed, December 10, 2008 12:51, Peter Miller wrote:
>> We are working on the queuing software so that we can allow users to
>> create some of the larger images that current only we can produce.
>
> Question: Could that queuing software render tiles? I would absolutely
> love an ITO OSM mapper slippy map.
>
> Oohh, the possibilities...
>
>
> Cheers,
> -- 
> Iván Sánchez Ortega <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> Un ordenador no es un televisor ni un microondas, es una herramienta
> compleja.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Updated view of 'A year of edits on OSM' and alsoSanta's Routes!

[Iván Sánchez Ortega]

On Wed, December 10, 2008 12:51, Peter Miller wrote:
> We are working on the queuing software so that we can allow users to
> create some of the larger images that current only we can produce.

Question: Could that queuing software render tiles? I would absolutely
love an ITO OSM mapper slippy map.

Oohh, the possibilities...


Cheers,
-- 
Iván Sánchez Ortega <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Un ordenador no es un televisor ni un microondas, es una herramienta
compleja.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Updated view of 'A year of edits on OSM' and alsoSanta's Routes!

[Peter Miller]

For 'people' read 'person'! Steve Chiltern has been demonstrating how  
much impact one person entering waterway details from NPE maps can  
have in a relatively short period of time and has done all the work in  
Wales, Cumbria and is evidently now starting in the south west.

I am glad you like the images. We would encourage others to add  
interesting images they have created by OSM Mapper to the pool and to  
subscribe.

We are also testing out some code to automatically upload images to  
Flickr so that a user can give OSM Mapper an API key for Flickr and  
would then be able to export an image directly onto their flickr site.

We are working on the queuing software so that we can allow users to  
create some of the larger images that current only we can produce.

More on that early in the new year on that.




Regards,



Peter

On 10 Dec 2008, at 11:01, Ed Loach wrote:

>> Btw, I have updated the planet image on Flickr this morning and
>> am
>> pleased to say that it now looks clean (and very beautiful) :)
>
> I just subscribed to the RSS feed for the ItoMedia pool as you
> suggested a few postings back. I'm currently admiring some of the
> other images you've uploaded recently (e.g. UK waterways - there
> have been people busy in Wales early in the year, Isle of Mann in
> summer, and the Lake District more recently).
>
> Ed
>
>


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Re: [OSM-talk] Are there any ways with street number ranges in the OSM database?

[Jochen Topf]

On Tue, Dec 09, 2008 at 09:56:53AM -0800, Dan Putler wrote:
> house number addressing in OSM, it was very useful. Given the related,
> and very active, "addressing" thread, it sounds like several issues need
> to be ironed out before there is a "final" OSM addressing scheme. From a

I never expect there to be one final addressing scheme. The Karlsruhe
scheme was intended as: We start here in Karlsruhe with something that
might work for us. If it also works for you thats fine, if not maybe you
can amend it, if it still doesn't fit, come up with something entirely
new. So far the scheme has seen some amendments and has more than 900
users who have used it. We'll see where it goes.

> practical point of view, it should be possible to do street intersection
> geocoding using OSM data as it currently exists, but the use of OSM data
> for other forms of geocoding is a work in progress.

What exactly do you want to do that doesn't work yet?

Jochen
-- 
Jochen Topf  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://www.remote.org/jochen/  +49-721-388298


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Re: [OSM-talk] Updated view of 'A year of edits on OSM' and alsoSanta's Routes!

[Bernt M. Johnsen]

2008/12/10 Peter Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> Would it be worth adding a wikipedia link to the way in question. I have
> used 'wikipedia=xxx' tagging for features with wikipedia article before but
> have now noticed that this tag hasn't made its way into map features. It
> would however be good not to loose this valuable explanation for a strange
> feature that others might remove or just puzzle over.

Good Idea, I'll see if I can add an explanatory tag to this zone. By
the way, the coordinates for the zone are public and may e.g. be found
here: http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gråsonen (in nrwegian). I guess you
will find the original treaty in untreaty.un.org somewhere.


-- 
Bernt Marius Johnsen
"Melius vivit qui remigat"

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Re: [OSM-talk] Updated view of 'A year of edits on OSM' and alsoSanta's Routes!

[Peter Miller]

Would it be worth adding a wikipedia link to the way in question. I  
have used 'wikipedia=xxx' tagging for features with wikipedia article  
before but have now noticed that this tag hasn't made its way into map  
features. It would however be good not to loose this valuable  
explanation for a strange feature that others might remove or just  
puzzle over.

Btw, I have updated the planet image on Flickr this morning and am  
pleased to say that it now looks clean (and very beautiful) :)


Regard,


Peter


On 10 Dec 2008, at 09:30, Bernt M. Johnsen wrote:

> Don't know what ZorroIII (That's roman numeral 3) did, but for your  
> information:
>
> "Gråsonen" (The Grey Zone) is an area in the Barents Sea which is
> disputed. Norway claims it is in the Norwegian Economic Zone
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exclusive_Economic_Zone) and Russia
> claims it is Russian. The two countries regularly negotiates fishing
> quotas this zone and it used to be very unregulated. The lack of
> regulation is the cause of the name. Oil/Gas rights is not resolved as
> far as I know.
>
> Bernt
>
> 2008/12/9 Robert Vollmert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> (to the list also)
>>
>> On Dec 9, 2008, at 22:29, Scott Atwood wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 1:19 PM, Robert Vollmert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
>>>
>>> On Dec 9, 2008, at 21:58, Ed Loach wrote:
 I think the way heading north from Finland may actually pass
 straight through Finland and start somewhere near Riga. But I can't
 find it using Mapnik or Potlatch.
>>>
>>> http://openstreetmap.org/browse/way/27611977
>>>
>>> Did you find this with a brute force search?  Or did you have a more
>>> elegant method?
>>
>> The high-res version of the Europe image pointed somewhere west of
>> Riga. Then the data layer.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Robert
>>
>>
>> ___
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>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Bernt Marius Johnsen
> "Melius vivit qui remigat"
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] [NUUG kart] Stier (var Turistforeningshyttene)

[Bernt M. Johnsen]

Har inntrykk av at path vs. footway-controversen i OSM bærer mer preg
av våpenstillstand enn av konsensus..

2008/12/9 Vidar Gundersen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 12:45 PM, vegard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Er det noen tegn til at dette faktisk er blitt klarere i det siste?
>
> ja.
> highway=path har fått plass på Map Features lista og er støttet
> av begge rendrerne. alt snakk jeg har lest om dette i det siste,
> ifm diskusjon av mtb:scale=* (forøvrig under avstemning) og
> andre tagger relatert til terrengsykling, hvor det har vært
> noen nye forslag og en del diskusjon de siste ukene.
>
> merk at highway=footway == highway=path,foot=designated
> se områdene rundt Fredrikstad og Kjekstadmarka i Asker.
> (cycleway er path med bicycle=designated, og
> bridleway horse=designated.)
>
> trail_visibility=* er også offisiell forøvrig.
>
> marked_trail=* er ikke offisiell, men jeg bruker det til å legge inn
> informasjon om merkede stier allikevel med tanke på å gjøre
> en søk-erstatt operasjon den dagen det kommer en offisiell tagg.
> ___
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>



-- 
Bernt Marius Johnsen
"Melius vivit qui remigat"

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Re: [OSM-talk] Updated view of 'A year of edits on OSM' and also Santa's Routes!

[Bernt M. Johnsen]

Don't know what ZorroIII (That's roman numeral 3) did, but for your information:

"Gråsonen" (The Grey Zone) is an area in the Barents Sea which is
disputed. Norway claims it is in the Norwegian Economic Zone
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exclusive_Economic_Zone) and Russia
claims it is Russian. The two countries regularly negotiates fishing
quotas this zone and it used to be very unregulated. The lack of
regulation is the cause of the name. Oil/Gas rights is not resolved as
far as I know.

Bernt

2008/12/9 Robert Vollmert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> (to the list also)
>
> On Dec 9, 2008, at 22:29, Scott Atwood wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 1:19 PM, Robert Vollmert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> > wrote:
>>
>> On Dec 9, 2008, at 21:58, Ed Loach wrote:
>> > I think the way heading north from Finland may actually pass
>> > straight through Finland and start somewhere near Riga. But I can't
>> > find it using Mapnik or Potlatch.
>>
>> http://openstreetmap.org/browse/way/27611977
>>
>> Did you find this with a brute force search?  Or did you have a more
>> elegant method?
>
> The high-res version of the Europe image pointed somewhere west of
> Riga. Then the data layer.
>
> Cheers
> Robert
>
>
> ___
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>



-- 
Bernt Marius Johnsen
"Melius vivit qui remigat"

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Re: [OSM-talk] POI layer for Tiles at home

[Sander Hoentjen]

On Tue, 2008-12-09 at 11:51 +0100, Maarten Deen wrote:
> > On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 2:29 PM, Simon Ward  wrote:
> > > or a layer that allows you to select what POIs to display (although a
> > > long list of POIs might be a little unwieldy).
> >
> > This map already exists:
> > http://www.lenz-online.de/cgi-bin/osm/osmpoinit.pl/
> 
> That solution is painfully slow and appears to be very awkward. In
> Firefox, it reloads, displays, reloads, displays, etc... and seems
> to do that for every single POI it finds. That can never be a
> viable solution.
> 
> I was looking at the same for one of my other hobbies too and used
> the OpenLayers POI example that's in the wiki at
> .
> I used that to create a map with all banks and ATMs in the
> Netherlands 
> That works for me in Firefox, but it works less good in IE7 and quite
> poorly in IE6. Apparently IE has a problem with the number of POIs
> in the map (some 1200). As the list is currently fixed this is also
> not a viable solution for the general public.
> 
> What you would want to make is a database backend (which can be the
> OSM database but can also be a dedicated one) and an OpenLayers
> solution that can display POIs on demand.
> The selection of POIs can be something like the map at lenz-online
> de, or you can make something that is more grouped per type of POI.
> 
> That way you do a select on the database with with the boundingbox
> of the map and the selection of POIs you like and that returns all
> POIs you want, and displays them on the map.
> The database query thing is easy, and the displaying thing should
> also be possible with OpenLayers. I think the OSM Inspector
>  does something like that.


Also see  for
an example (yes i should update that page, but what is there works).

Sander


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[OSM-talk] Incomprehensible Intersections

[Beej Jorgensen]

A few goodies around the world that would be fun to map:

http://www.darkroastedblend.com/2006/11/incomprehensible-intersections.html

I got to make one of the first passes at mapping the MacArthur Maze here
in Oakland CA--that was quite a learning experience. :)

-Beej

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