Re: [Talk-gb-london] Tube exits

[Bjoern Hassler]

Hi Rob,

thanks!

I appreciate that the tagging scheme excludes 'Exit 1', and suggests to not
include the station. I've extracted exits via overpass and most exits don't
follow the scheme. :) Most exits are simply the station name, and/or have
the exit number written into the name. Some have what it says on the sign
("Exit 1. ..."), and a few do follow the scheme and just have what's on the
sign minus the "Exit 1".

While I appreciate the nature of OSM relations that give more info, ... and
am aware that we're not tagging for the renderer but Organic Maps (and
Maps.Me) renders the station name, and I can search for "Bank Exit 1" and
find it (because that's in the name). I can search for Argyll Street, and
will find "Exit 8" (but cannot see which station it is.) In principle, that
seems very usable for people who would need to rely on using certain exits
(e.g., for access).

So... I do appreciate the scheme and that the scheme hasn't been changed in
a while... but, given the observations above: *Do you/others think there's
scope for bringing the labeling scheme in line with what apps can find
while at the same time bringing the osm name in line with signage?*

I appreciate the view that it's the fault of the app not rendering
adequately - but tagging is far from perfect, e.g. 'ref' is a bit random -
so why would apps go out of their way to use imperfect tagging? Quite
possibly apps are just doing to use free text searches. I'd be quite happy
to put some time into regularising the exit names. However, I'd want the
end result to work reasonably well in apps, so it's actually of practical
use to somebody. At the same time, I could also do this outside OSM, i.e.,
make a set of bookmarks for OrganiseMaps that people can overlay. However,
it would be nicer to store the data in OSM, so others can find it. *What do
you think?*

I realise that it doesn't help much that the four entrances which are
> members of that relation were incorrectly tagged 5 years ago with
> name="Aldgate East" (understandable) and ref=* values of A,B,C and F
> (which seem very odd).


I can maybe offer some observations/heuristics here. I don't know what the
'ref' values are, but the values for 'ref' are labels that can be found on
the axiometric projections, see
https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/3d-maps-of-every-underground-station-ab-14630/.
They are also referenced in some of the open data TfL makes available,
e.g., in the unique exit id.

(1) An agency did some mapping about 4-5 years ago on behalf of TfL.
https://mentz.net/ E.g.,
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/475381373/history, #9. I raised some
issues with the tagging at the time, but it wasn't really possible to get
hold of the people doing the mapping. The ref=A,B,C were introduced at the
time.

(2) As far as I can see, those labels are purely of internal use for TfL
(if of any use at all). I agree that they could be replaced... but see (1).
So maybe there needs to be a different tag that can hold the ref=A,B,C and
ref can then be used for the entrance number. (TfL does have the unique ids
for station exits, which can be looked up in their open data on the basis
of the ref=A,B,C. They could be added and make the ref=A,B,C redundant.)

Maybe it's all a bit too random too fix, but I'd be happy to put some
energy into fixing this on OSM, because I have experienced accurate exit
information being useful (and I value open data). But, at the same time, it
could be done outside OSM as well. Opinions welcome.

This is clearly useless for routing, but luckily
> for me CityMapper gets its station information from somewhere else.
>

I had a look at CityMapper, but I couldn't see station exits used.

Björn
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Re: [Talk-gb-london] Tube exits

[Robert Skedgell]

On 07/04/2023 10:08, Bjoern Hassler wrote:

Hello everyone and happy long weekend!

I'd like to launch a campaign to collect accurate London tube exit 
information and how to get there from the platform. The exits are 
typically already in OSM, but often they are only labelled partially.
I do think that features (such as exits and platforms) should be 
labelled by what is visible on the platform. Sure, station codes can be 
included as well, but for the user, at least some of the label has to 
correspond to what they see at that location.


Could we get broad agreement on how to label tube exits and (ideally) 
what should be included in the description?


For example, this node: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/5109686507 
. It was previously 
called Algate East, which is correct, but not specific. I've labelled 
this now as "Aldgate East, Exit 1". However, at the station, the exit is 
actually labelled  "Exit 1. High Street (south side), Leman Street, 
Conference forum." I do think that including the station name is good 
for searching, and I do not think it will confuse users.


*Proposal. *London tube exits should be labeled by station name plus the 
actual exit label (where available), i.e., exit name on OSM would be: 
"Aldgate East, Exit 1. High Street (south side), Leman Street, 
Conference forum."


This label would work for people travelling from the platform to 
the exits (as they'll see the sign). Because the sign includes 
landmarks, this lable would also make sense for people entering the station.


How do people feel about this proposal? Would this be acceptable? Any views?

Many thanks!
Björn


We already have a documented tagging scheme for railway=subway_entrance, 
which seems to have been more or less stable for quite a long time (~10 
years). This is what data consumers like pedestrian routing software 
will presumably use and having non-standard tagging for London 
Underground could cause problems.


name	Name of the exit if is known. Not the name of the station (use the 
public_transport=stop_area relation instead to link with the station). 
This doesn't include the reference either.


ref	Reference of the entrance if it has one. Some subway networks use 
numbers or codes to identify exits, e.g. "2" or "B1".


https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:railway%3Dsubway_entrance

For that exit from Aldgate East, it should have name="High Street (south 
side), Leman Street, Conference forum" and ref=1.


The exit already inherits the station name by being a member of Aldgate 
East's public_transport=stop_area relation.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/7218599

I realise that it doesn't help much that the four entrances which are 
members of that relation were incorrectly tagged 5 years ago with 
name="Aldgate East" (understandable) and ref=* values of A,B,C and F 
(which seem very odd). This is clearly useless for routing, but luckily 
for me CityMapper gets its station information from somewhere else.


In OSM Carto, the icon for railway=subway_entrance is rendered at zoom 
18 and the value of the ref=* tag is added at zoom 19. Changing the 
value of the name=* tag may not result in anything different being 
rendered, unless you can persuade the maintainers to change it. None of 
the other common tile layers I've looked at appear to render any text at 
all, even if they display an icon.


https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/master/style/stations.mss


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Re: [OSM-talk] wheelmap.org batch updates

[Andy Townsend]

On 07/04/2023 13:13, Marc_marc wrote:


Le 07.04.23 à 12:26, a...@onthewings.net a écrit :


it would be great if board/DWG can communicate this with 
wheelmap.org. I don't think I can represent osm.



you don't need to represent the community to make a suggestion
and I even think that the board/DWG has much more important things
to do than passing on suggestions.


Hello,

Andy from the DWG here.

We maybe get a couple of complaints a year about wheelmap edits (many 
fewer than most organisations get, and fewer than some individual 
mappers).  Of these quite a lot complaints are about the wrong user 
altogether (people click on a random changeset, which because of the 
size is likely to be a wheelmap one) and the rest are usually about 
changeset size.  As you can see from 
http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussion-comments?uid=290680 , 
they're apparently working on this ("We know that these big changesets 
are annoying and we really want to optimize this. Unfortunately, it 
takes longer than planned").


I've mentioned it to them again (not some secret back-channel - I just 
mailed the parent organisation's "info" address listed on their website, 
which I got a reply from last time I used it) and I'm sure that they'll 
reply shortly.


Best Regards,

Andy




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[OSM-talk] mapboox improve the (proprietary database used as en overlay) map

[Marc_marc]

Hello,

following a discussion on the mailing list talk-fr,
mapbox "improve the map" now feeds their proprietary database,
the one that is displayed on top of the osm

is it acceptable in terms of licensing to render using odbl+proprietary 
data?


ethically it's obviously very bad to appropriate user contributions
in this way, does anyone have a contact at their end to try and get
them to return to more ethical behaviour?
on talk-fr, no one from mapbox has replied since this behaviour
was pointed out

Regards,
Marc



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Re: [OSM-talk] wheelmap.org batch updates

[Marc_marc]

Hello,

Le 07.04.23 à 12:26, a...@onthewings.net a écrit :


Currently wheelmap.org users are contributing anonymously


not only, you may also use an osm account.


changesets that cover a very large area


indeed hugde bbox is not a good idea like
this one https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/134482555

it would be great if board/DWG can communicate this with wheelmap.org. 
I don't think I can represent osm.



you don't need to represent the community to make a suggestion
and I even think that the board/DWG has much more important things
to do than passing on suggestions.

Regards,
Marc



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Re: [Talk-se] Sweden: Missing Buildings

[Salim Baidoun]

Thank you Tomas, sure will copy/paste my message there.

Regards,

Salim A. Baidoun| Community & Partnerships


From: Tomas Marklund 
Date: Friday, 7 April 2023 at 14:02
To: OpenStreetMap Sverige mailinglista 
Subject: Re: [Talk-se] Sweden: Missing Buildings
You don't often get email from tomasmarklun...@gmail.com. Learn why this is 
important
Hello Salim!

Could you please use the community forum instead of this mailing list? This 
mailing list makes it more difficult to find old threads, if someone would be 
interested in them after a while. Especially for new users who don't have 
access to older mail threads.

https://community.openstreetmap.org/c/communities/se/49

/Tomas

Den fre 7 apr. 2023 kl 13:21 skrev Salim Baidoun 
mailto:salim.baid...@tomtom.com>>:
Hello Swedish community,

Could you please let me know if the community has any comments or suggestions 
about our team supporting editing (when we have capacity) in Sweden: Missing 
Buildings?

Regards,
Salim A. Baidoun / Community & Partnerships - Global / Community Engagement


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Re: [Talk-se] Sweden: Missing Buildings

[Tomas Marklund]

Hello Salim!

Could you please use the community forum instead of this mailing list? This
mailing list makes it more difficult to find old threads, if someone would
be interested in them after a while. Especially for new users who don't
have access to older mail threads.

https://community.openstreetmap.org/c/communities/se/49

/Tomas

Den fre 7 apr. 2023 kl 13:21 skrev Salim Baidoun :

> Hello Swedish community,
>
>
>
> Could you please let me know if the community has any comments or
> suggestions about our team supporting editing (when we have capacity) in 
> Sweden:
> Missing Buildings ?
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Salim A. Baidoun / Community & Partnerships - Global / Community
> Engagement
>
>
>
>
> ___
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>
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[Talk-se] Sweden: Missing Buildings

[Salim Baidoun]

Hello Swedish community,

Could you please let me know if the community has any comments or suggestions 
about our team supporting editing (when we have capacity) in Sweden: Missing 
Buildings?

Regards,
Salim A. Baidoun / Community & Partnerships - Global / Community Engagement


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[OSM-talk] wheelmap.org batch updates

[andy]

Hi list,

I saw that wheelmap.org was discussed in the broad meeting last year 
([2022-03](https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Board/Minutes/2022-03#Contributions_without_individual_OSM_accounts)),
 but I still havequestions/suggestions regarding wheelmap.org's contribution to 
osm.

Currently wheelmap.org users are contributing anonymously. Wheelmap.org 
contributions are batched periodically before submitting to osm (I think). This 
often creates osm changesets that cover a very large area. It pollutes osm 
local area history, and it's hard to isolate bad edits.

My suggestion would be to use smaller batches. For example, each individual 
wheelmap.org usage session get batched separately. It would still allow users 
to stay anonymous, yet group related changes in a single changeset, assuming 
people work on a specific area in each wheelmap.org usage session.

Implementation-wise, a random id is generated when opening wheelmap.org, edits 
will be labeled with said id, and the wheelmap.org server batch edits using 
this id.

If my suggestion is good, it would be great if board/DWG can communicate this 
with wheelmap.org. I don't want to contact wheelmap.org directly since I don't 
think I can represent osm.

Cheers,
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[Talk-gb-london] Tube exits

[Bjoern Hassler]

Hello everyone and happy long weekend!

I'd like to launch a campaign to collect accurate London tube exit
information and how to get there from the platform. The exits are typically
already in OSM, but often they are only labelled partially.
I do think that features (such as exits and platforms) should be labelled
by what is visible on the platform. Sure, station codes can be included as
well, but for the user, at least some of the label has to correspond to
what they see at that location.

Could we get broad agreement on how to label tube exits and (ideally) what
should be included in the description?

For example, this node:  https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/5109686507. It
was previously called Algate East, which is correct, but not specific. I've
labelled this now as "Aldgate East, Exit 1". However, at the station, the
exit is actually labelled  "Exit 1. High Street (south side), Leman Street,
Conference forum." I do think that including the station name is good for
searching, and I do not think it will confuse users.

*Proposal. *London tube exits should be labeled by station name plus the
actual exit label (where available), i.e., exit name on OSM would be:
"Aldgate East, Exit 1. High Street (south side), Leman Street, Conference
forum."

This label would work for people travelling from the platform to the exits
(as they'll see the sign). Because the sign includes landmarks, this lable
would also make sense for people entering the station.

How do people feel about this proposal? Would this be acceptable? Any views?

Many thanks!
Björn
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[OSM-talk] Save the date: State of the Map Europe 2023

[joost schouppe]

Hi all,

Because there is no global State of the Map event this year, we at
OpenStreetMap Belgium have decided to set up a State of the Map Europe
instead!

The event will be in Antwerp, Belgium from Friday November 10th till Sunday
November 11th.

There will be space for 500 participants, with two main tracks as well as
the usual unconference part of the event. Online participation will be
possible.

We will keep you posted on our website https://stateofthemap.eu/

Get in touch with the team via i...@stateofthemap.eu* if you have any
questions, suggestions or offers of help.

-- 
Joost Schouppe & Ben Abelshausen
for the SotM-EU organizing committee

* e-mail address not yet active, if you get an error feel free to contact
us directly
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