Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] Feature Proposal - landuse=orchard
On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 1:54 PM, Emilie Laffray emilie.laff...@gmail.comwrote: That would mean that Mapnik needs to be checking a secondary field to determine what to display. If the renderer doesn't do that, you will end up with a map that is poorer in the end. In your case, that would mean increasing the size of the table produced by osm2pgsql by one extra column. Overall, you are increasing complexity with little or no benefits. I am not sure it makes sense in the end since were are getting exactly the same of information if you are using the tag directly in landuse. If using farm as a base tag (or forest), you will make sure that thos not interested in the details, still can use the data. To me that is a very clear advantage. You have two choices: Let those interested in detail check for details (two tags) or require everyone to check for the details. I fail to see any disadvantages of using landuse=farm + farm=orchard (or something similar). Waisting a few bits in a database is simply not a problem. - Gustav ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] Feature Proposal - landuse=orchard
2009/9/30 Gustav Foseid gust...@gmail.com: snip +1 I fail to see any disadvantages of using landuse=farm + farm=orchard (or something similar). Waisting a few bits in a database is simply not a problem. If you pre-process the information, eg osm2pgsql drops the type of farm use into the landuse field it wouldn't even waste database columns. Other software can do the same, store the default tag or store the use tag etc. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] Feature Proposal - landuse=orchard
On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 8:28 AM, Gustav Foseid gust...@gmail.com wrote: If using farm as a base tag (or forest), you will make sure that thos not interested in the details, still can use the data. To me that is a very clear advantage. You have two choices: Let those interested in detail check for details (two tags) or require everyone to check for the details. Sure. If I follow your principle, we could also replace: shop=* by amenity=shop + shop=* or highway=* by highway=road + road=* etc.. If you don't care about landuse values, then use landuse=*. If you care about famland but not about orchard, then just use landuse=farm|farmland. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] Feature Proposal - landuse=orchard
Am 28.09.2009 20:40, Pieren: Hi all, This is not my proposal but this tag is used by the Corine Land Cover current import in France corresponding to the class 2.2.2 of this european program (Agricultural areas - Permanent crops - Fruit trees and berry plantations). I would like to push this for improvements and a proper adoption. Please check the proposal and add your comments here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/orchard Pieren I'd rather like to see this merged into some more generic landuse=agricultural tagging-scheme. Which would cover general farmland (currently tagged as landuse=farmland) as well. Any farmer within the OSM crowd that could lend her/his expertise? Claudius ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] Feature Proposal - landuse=orchard
2009/9/29 Claudius claudiu...@gmx.de: Am 28.09.2009 20:40, Pieren: Hi all, This is not my proposal but this tag is used by the Corine Land Cover current import in France corresponding to the class 2.2.2 of this european program (Agricultural areas - Permanent crops - Fruit trees and berry plantations). I would like to push this for improvements and a proper adoption. Please check the proposal and add your comments here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/orchard Pieren I'd rather like to see this merged into some more generic landuse=agricultural tagging-scheme. Which would cover general farmland (currently tagged as landuse=farmland) as well. Any farmer within the OSM crowd that could lend her/his expertise? Claudius Not being a Farmer I'm not 100% sure but I think we need to split up how a feed is used. ie Ploughed Field, Changed Every Year. Grass for grazing animals Orchard, permanent or semi-permanent trees/bushes While some farmers may rotate there land, partally with Orchards this is not as likely as with grassland and ploughed Fields Just my 2pence worth. Peter. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] Feature Proposal - landuse=orchard
2009/9/29 Peter Childs pchi...@bcs.org: While some farmers may rotate their land, partially with Orchards this is not as likely as with grassland and ploughed Fields +1 I'd also like to see differentiation of conventional orchards and meadow orchards (de:Streuobstwiese). See Wikipedia:en for details in English. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] Feature Proposal - landuse=orchard
On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 12:43 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/9/29 Peter Childs pchi...@bcs.org: I'd also like to see differentiation of conventional orchards and meadow orchards (de:Streuobstwiese). See Wikipedia:en for details in English. Please add your comments here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/orchard Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] Feature Proposal - landuse=orchard
On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 12:12 PM, Claudius claudiu...@gmx.de wrote: I'd rather like to see this merged into some more generic landuse=agricultural tagging-scheme. Which would cover general farmland (currently tagged as landuse=farmland) as well. Any farmer within the OSM crowd that could lend her/his expertise? Claudius Please add your comments here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/orchard Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] Feature Proposal - landuse=orchard
... Not a farmer but a country boy ... my ha'porth ... Orchards (including olive groves etc.) seem sufficiently distinct (and permanent - not rotated) to justify a tag of their own. Same might apply e.g. to vineyards. Some plantations e.g. bananas, oil palm also seem semi-permanent given the life-span of the crop plants. Arable land (which is normally under rotation between plough, various crops, hay, rice, flax, resting non-permanent grassland) is fairly distinct - but the individual crops would probably be too ephemeral. Pastoral land - semi-permanent grassland for cattle and similar livestock - is also fairly distinct and characteristic e.g. of much of the dairy farming countryside around here. Permanent non-cultivated grassland - e.g. natural meadows, uncropped marshland meadows, alpine meadows might be another category. Would it be fairly simple then to go along the lines of: Landuse=agricultural vs. Landuse=grassland And for the former: Agriculture=arable / pastoral / orchard / plantation Maybe a fairly limited number of tags would cope - or am I being too limited geographically to be useful? Mike Harris -Original Message- From: Peter Childs [mailto:pchi...@bcs.org] Sent: 29 September 2009 11:24 Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] Feature Proposal - landuse=orchard 2009/9/29 Claudius claudiu...@gmx.de: Am 28.09.2009 20:40, Pieren: Hi all, This is not my proposal but this tag is used by the Corine Land Cover current import in France corresponding to the class 2.2.2 of this european program (Agricultural areas - Permanent crops - Fruit trees and berry plantations). I would like to push this for improvements and a proper adoption. Please check the proposal and add your comments here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/orchard Pieren I'd rather like to see this merged into some more generic landuse=agricultural tagging-scheme. Which would cover general farmland (currently tagged as landuse=farmland) as well. Any farmer within the OSM crowd that could lend her/his expertise? Claudius Not being a Farmer I'm not 100% sure but I think we need to split up how a feed is used. ie Ploughed Field, Changed Every Year. Grass for grazing animals Orchard, permanent or semi-permanent trees/bushes While some farmers may rotate there land, partally with Orchards this is not as likely as with grassland and ploughed Fields Just my 2pence worth. Peter. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] Feature Proposal - landuse=orchard
2009/9/29 Mike Harris mik...@googlemail.com: Landuse=agricultural vs. Landuse=grassland And for the former: Agriculture=arable / pastoral / orchard / plantation This seems saner, that way if you aren't sure of the land use due to time of year the aerial imagery was take or what not you can just tag it as agricultural until you find out more definitively. Also most broad acre farming here (crops) tend to be rotated every 6 months or so, but they tend to be the same things year in year out, so maybe this could be extended slightly to be: landuse=agriculture agriculture=crop wheat=winter soybeans=summer or something like that... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] Feature Proposal - landuse=orchard
2009/9/29 Claudius Henrichs claudiu...@gmx.de No, I rather meant landuse=agricultural + agricultural=orchard/field/crop/salt and thus keeping the information but in the same time grouping agricultural landuses under one tag. That would mean that Mapnik needs to be checking a secondary field to determine what to display. If the renderer doesn't do that, you will end up with a map that is poorer in the end. In your case, that would mean increasing the size of the table produced by osm2pgsql by one extra column. Overall, you are increasing complexity with little or no benefits. I am not sure it makes sense in the end since were are getting exactly the same of information if you are using the tag directly in landuse. Emilie Laffray ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] Feature Proposal - landuse=orchard
2009/9/29 Emilie Laffray emilie.laff...@gmail.com: That would mean that Mapnik needs to be checking a secondary field to determine what to display. If the renderer doesn't do that, you will end up with a map that is poorer in the end. In your case, that would mean increasing the size of the table produced by osm2pgsql by one extra column. Overall, you are increasing complexity with little or no benefits. I am not sure it makes sense in the end since were are getting exactly the same of information if you are using the tag directly in landuse. Why is this a problem for tagging exactly? If mapnik wants to pre-process it differently that's fine, but it should have no bearing on the tagging used. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] Feature Proposal - landuse=orchard
2009/9/29 Pieren pier...@gmail.com: On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 12:43 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/9/29 Peter Childs pchi...@bcs.org: I'd also like to see differentiation of conventional orchards and meadow orchards (de:Streuobstwiese). See Wikipedia:en for details in English. Please add your comments here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/orchard I already inserted there on discussion-page. Feel free to copy stuff you like from discussion to proposal ;-) cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] Feature Proposal - landuse=orchard
Emilie Laffray wrote: That would mean that Mapnik needs to be checking a secondary field to determine what to display. If the renderer doesn't do that, you will end up with a map that is poorer in the end. In your case, that would mean That's not really so different as highway + access, or highway=service+service=*. And while it is nice to keep render complexity in mind when you design a tagging scheme, don't let it make a case against the more logical tagging. increasing the size of the table produced by osm2pgsql by one extra column. Overall, you are increasing complexity with little or no benefits. Which means 1 bit per row, for the most part. I am not sure it makes sense in the end since were are getting exactly the same of information if you are using the tag directly in landuse. Extensibility. Plain and simple. If you come up with a new category for agricultural=*, and while you wait for the renderers to pick that up, you're still getting a plain landuse=agricultural rendered. Not a white spot on the map. Data users that don't need the complexity of different agricultural uses only need to process the main landuse=agricultural tag, and not try to group various agricultural landuse types into 1. -- Lennard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] [tagging] Feature Proposal - landuse=orchard
Hi all, This is not my proposal but this tag is used by the Corine Land Cover current import in France corresponding to the class 2.2.2 of this european program (Agricultural areas - Permanent crops - Fruit trees and berry plantations). I would like to push this for improvements and a proper adoption. Please check the proposal and add your comments here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/orchard Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
