Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

[Nick Whitelegg]

.. sorry, perhaps I was not clear there in my description of the proposed 
TrekView software ('TrekView Explorer') and its relationship with imagery 
providers. It will allow users to upload sets of 360 panoramas, refine them 
(e.g. correct the orientation, adjust their position), tag them, and then 
submit them to providers such as StreetView, Mapillary and OpenTrailView. It 
will also provide general information such as how to make the best use out of 
the various brands of 360 camera (e.g. which ones  include bearing and which 
ones do not).

Users will also be able to save their panorama sets for later use.

Nick



From: Nick Whitelegg 
Sent: 29 June 2020 10:03
To: talk@openstreetmap.org 
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary


Something else which might be of interest to contributors to this thread, from 
the software side of things:

For OpenTrailView I am collaborating with the TrekView project (trekview.org) 
which aims to make it easy for people to take 360 panoramas of all walking 
trails, and other off-road locations, in the world.  It's a separate project to 
OpenTrailView: the aim of TrekView is not so much to collect the data itself, 
but rather, to make it easy to collect and make avaiable as many 360 panoramas 
of the natural world as possible, and to submit them to a range of sources, 
including StreetView, Mapillary and also OpenTrailView.

Nonetheless, it's relevant here because TrekView is aiming to develop a highly 
user-friendly and open source upload interface which could be adapted for 
road-based 360 photography too.

Perhaps, if there is any interest in taking this forward, it's worth starting a 
wiki page showing all the possible software which could be used? Including, but 
not limited to: the first (open source) version of OpenStreetCam; 
OpenTrailView; the TrekView upload system when it's ready; and any open source 
image blurring software out there.

Nick

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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

[Nick Whitelegg]

Something else which might be of interest to contributors to this thread, from 
the software side of things:

For OpenTrailView I am collaborating with the TrekView project (trekview.org) 
which aims to make it easy for people to take 360 panoramas of all walking 
trails, and other off-road locations, in the world.  It's a separate project to 
OpenTrailView: the aim of TrekView is not so much to collect the data itself, 
but rather, to make it easy to collect and make avaiable as many 360 panoramas 
of the natural world as possible, and to submit them to a range of sources, 
including StreetView, Mapillary and also OpenTrailView.

Nonetheless, it's relevant here because TrekView is aiming to develop a highly 
user-friendly and open source upload interface which could be adapted for 
road-based 360 photography too.

Perhaps, if there is any interest in taking this forward, it's worth starting a 
wiki page showing all the possible software which could be used? Including, but 
not limited to: the first (open source) version of OpenStreetCam; 
OpenTrailView; the TrekView upload system when it's ready; and any open source 
image blurring software out there.

Nick

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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

[Marc Gemis]

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 10:48 PM Mark Wagner  wrote:

> Distributed storage is one of those things that sounds good, but
> nobody's figured out how to make it actually work well.

I also wonder about privacy and security in a distributed system. Will
the distributed system only contain the blurred images? What about the
original images, will they be spread over the world, to servers ran by
unknown people, organizations, governments? Will that be an
improvement over having them owned by Facebook?

m.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

[Mark Wagner]

On Sat, 27 Jun 2020 22:01:57 +0200
"Marc M."  wrote:

> Le 26.06.20 à 14:09, Florian Lohoff a écrit :
> >> I don't care about SLA. Does OSM have SLA?  
> > The point is when you distribute your storage to people at
> > home we will have at most 10% of images online all the time.  
> 
> what facts are you basing that number on ?
> The worst internet connection I have has 98% availability.
> of course, it's not mandatory to have a pay-per-use dialup :)
> not to mention local chapters or companies with servers in datacenters
> or with fiber connection (where 2 instances of the PoC are running
> right now).
> 
> > Disregarding the case that upstream bandwidth internationally
> > is pretty bad so you tend to have access times
> > for images of about 4-5 seconds at best. (3MByte image at
> > a typical ADSL upstream with 1.5MBit/s and international latencys)  
> 
> your logic does not correspond to a distributed storage.
> it is not "one disk that sends one photo to one user"
> it is the pool that sends the pool of requests to all users.
> if you have 1000 adsl to serve 100 simultaneous requests,
> this is the equivalent of 15Mb/s par request (minus the management).
> I leave it up to you to imagine an order of magnitude for the
> conversion between simultaneous requests and users.

The only distributed data store I'm aware of with an actual
implementation is Freenet.  Freenet exhibits classic long-tail
behavior: popular data has high (>99%) availability with rapid
transfers, while the vast majority of data objects exist only as
references from other objects, and on the rare instances where they're
still in the data store, transfer times are measured in minutes.

If you treat a Bittorent index as a distributed data store, you see the
same pattern: a few popular torrents have hundreds or thousands of seeds
and download as fast as your connection can handle, while the majority
have, at best, one seeder, and many only have one or two users with
partial copies, hanging around in hopes that someone will eventually
show up with the remaining pieces.

In the context of a street-level photography system, distributed
storage means that you'll have no trouble downloading images of Old
Faithful or the Eiffel Tower, but you'll be lucky if you can get even
one photo of Road 783 in central Nebraska.

Distributed storage is one of those things that sounds good, but
nobody's figured out how to make it actually work well.

-- 
Mark

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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

[Mishari Muqbil]

In addition, there are several pieces that can be used as building blocks:

1. Federated / self hosted systems such email, newsgroups, RSS etc. Can be
used, perhaps using something similar to DHT that can be used to locate
images.
2. Bittorrent, webtorrent or a similar system can be used to spread data
around and serve the data
3. Interplanetary file system - p2p network for storing and sharing data

Best regards
Mishari

On Sun, 28 Jun 2020, 03:03 Marc M.,  wrote:

> Le 26.06.20 à 14:09, Florian Lohoff a écrit :
> >> I don't care about SLA. Does OSM have SLA?
> > The point is when you distribute your storage to people at
> > home we will have at most 10% of images online all the time.
>
> what facts are you basing that number on ?
> The worst internet connection I have has 98% availability.
> of course, it's not mandatory to have a pay-per-use dialup :)
> not to mention local chapters or companies with servers in datacenters
> or with fiber connection (where 2 instances of the PoC are running
> right now).
>
> > Disregarding the case that upstream bandwidth internationally
> > is pretty bad so you tend to have access times
> > for images of about 4-5 seconds at best. (3MByte image at
> > a typical ADSL upstream with 1.5MBit/s and international latencys)
>
> your logic does not correspond to a distributed storage.
> it is not "one disk that sends one photo to one user"
> it is the pool that sends the pool of requests to all users.
> if you have 1000 adsl to serve 100 simultaneous requests,
> this is the equivalent of 15Mb/s par request (minus the management).
> I leave it up to you to imagine an order of magnitude for the conversion
> between simultaneous requests and users.
>
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>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

[Marc M.]

Le 26.06.20 à 14:09, Florian Lohoff a écrit :
>> I don't care about SLA. Does OSM have SLA?
> The point is when you distribute your storage to people at
> home we will have at most 10% of images online all the time.

what facts are you basing that number on ?
The worst internet connection I have has 98% availability.
of course, it's not mandatory to have a pay-per-use dialup :)
not to mention local chapters or companies with servers in datacenters
or with fiber connection (where 2 instances of the PoC are running
right now).

> Disregarding the case that upstream bandwidth internationally
> is pretty bad so you tend to have access times
> for images of about 4-5 seconds at best. (3MByte image at
> a typical ADSL upstream with 1.5MBit/s and international latencys)

your logic does not correspond to a distributed storage.
it is not "one disk that sends one photo to one user"
it is the pool that sends the pool of requests to all users.
if you have 1000 adsl to serve 100 simultaneous requests,
this is the equivalent of 15Mb/s par request (minus the management).
I leave it up to you to imagine an order of magnitude for the conversion
between simultaneous requests and users.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

[Florian Lohoff]

On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 01:23:05PM +0200, Marc M. wrote:
> Hello,

> with this in mind 20k€/year for storage is one to explore.
> distributed storage, too.
> 
> I don't care about SLA. Does OSM have SLA?
> No, we're doing the best we can.

The point is when you distribute your storage to people at
home we will have at most 10% of images online all the time.
So the user experience clicking on images will be awful so
nobody will use it. Disregarding the case that upstream bandwidth
internationally is pretty bad so you tend to have access times
for images of about 4-5 seconds at best. (3MByte image at
a typical ADSL upstream with 1.5MBit/s and international latencys)

Flo
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

[Marc M.]

Hello,

Le 26.06.20 à 12:42, Florian Lohoff a écrit :
> this is NOT a trivial

no one said it is trivial, or it would be over by now.
but some of us try more positive alternatives than "sitting
down and doing nothing because it's impossible".
maybe it will succeed, maybe it will only be 1/10th of what
is hoped for, maybe it will not succeed.

with this in mind 20k€/year for storage is one to explore.
distributed storage, too.

I don't care about SLA. Does OSM have SLA?
No, we're doing the best we can.

today, it is easy to make a map for your own photo storage.
it's also possible to make a thematic instance for a local community.
it's possible and easy to feed it from your mapillary account.
it's already not so bad!

i don't remember osm starting with a 100k£ call before the first test.
thanks to the precursors for not being aware that it's not a hobby pet
project someone is running from his/her basement.

Regards,
Marc

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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

[Florian Lohoff]

On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 05:25:28PM +0200, Marc M. wrote:
> Le 25.06.20 à 16:16, Florian Lohoff a écrit :
> > Mapillary themselves say on their web pages that they already
> > have 1,199,363,907 images. Thats 3515625 GB or 3.5TB Data 
> > assuming 3MByte per image.
> 
> 3 500 000 GB ~ 3 500 TB ~ 3.5 PB ?
> ~100k€ ~100k$ hardware cost for the storage.
> or 1000 people sharing a 6TB disk on a distributed system

The 100K$ are recurring costs every 5? years.

And you honestly suggest a distributed system? What is the
availability for the images - Did you say SLA?

I am doing IT Infrastructure for 25 years now and this is NOT
a trivial task and it is definitly not a hobby pet project
someone is running from his/her basement.

Flo
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

[Nick Whitelegg]

Just another thought on this (and it is just a thought) but reflects my current 
thinking on OpenTrailView but could also apply to an open source StreetView-lie 
app:

Start small, cover a relatively small area (a historic town or national park 
including the footways?)  - maybe a group of people could get together to fund 
the server for this.

If the end product is then genuinely useful to people and has features that 
StreetView and Mapillary do not offer - then maybe it will attract interest, 
and thus funding.

If not, then at least you have created a potentially useful bit of open-source 
software that others could also use in small-scale situations.


Nick

From: Marc M. 
Sent: 25 June 2020 16:25
To: talk@openstreetmap.org 
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

Le 25.06.20 à 16:16, Florian Lohoff a écrit :
> Mapillary themselves say on their web pages that they already
> have 1,199,363,907 images. Thats 3515625 GB or 3.5TB Data
> assuming 3MByte per image.

3 500 000 GB ~ 3 500 TB ~ 3.5 PB ?
~100k€ ~100k$ hardware cost for the storage.
or 1000 people sharing a 6TB disk on a distributed system

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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

[Marc M.]

Le 25.06.20 à 16:16, Florian Lohoff a écrit :
> Mapillary themselves say on their web pages that they already
> have 1,199,363,907 images. Thats 3515625 GB or 3.5TB Data 
> assuming 3MByte per image.

3 500 000 GB ~ 3 500 TB ~ 3.5 PB ?
~100k€ ~100k$ hardware cost for the storage.
or 1000 people sharing a 6TB disk on a distributed system

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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

[Florian Lohoff]

Hola,

On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 12:46:16PM -0700, Mark Wagner wrote:
> Serious funding?  Yes.  Outrageous funding?  No.
> 
> Rough estimate:
> 
> * The CIA World Factbook says there are about 64 000 000 km of roads in
>   the world.
> * Google Street View takes 100 photos per km.
> * A photosphere from my tablet, compressed using WebP at 50% quality
>   takes 2.7 MB.

Thats pretty much pointless. Have a look at Photos taken which have
shown up in Mapillary. There is a history and multiple angles and
much more Photos per km than Google Street View. And its not
just roads but footways, passages, rivers etc.
 
> This is about 17 280 TB of storage to cover the entire world at Google
> Street View quality.  It would cost $215 000 per month to store in
> Amazon S3, or $89 000 per month in Backblaze B2.  It's well within the
> capacity of someone like the Wikimedia Foundation.

Mapillary says i have 1080km with 164k images thats an image every
6.5m on average. And image is roughly 3MByte for me on average which
is NOT a 360° but a 120° field of view.

flo@p4:/scratch/local/mapillary$ find . -type f -name "*.JPG" | wc -l
102748
flo@p4:/scratch/local/mapillary$ du -sk .
315372436   .
flo@p4:/scratch/local/mapillary$ echo $[ 315372436 / 102748 ]
3069

So i produce 500GB per 1000km of ways - not just roads. Assuming
that the amount of ways is twice the number of roads and we
have 4 points in time we take a Photo thats 
64 000 000km * 2 * 4 thats 512 000 000km of road times the 
500GB per 1000km thats 256 000TB so the amount of money
is at least an order larger.

Mapillary themselves say on their web pages that they already
have 1,199,363,907 images. Thats 3515625 GB or 3.5TB Data assuming
3MByte per image.

So yes - You need serious funding. And i dont say that thats out of
reach of Wikimedia but its not a simple home project. And we didnt
talk about transfer costs etc. If you do some Machine Learning and post
processing you touch every image multiple times.

Flo
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

[Marc Gemis]

> * The CIA World Factbook says there are about 64 000 000 km of roads in
>   the world.
> * Google Street View takes 100 photos per km.
> * A photosphere from my tablet, compressed using WebP at 50% quality
>   takes 2.7 MB.

I doubt the CIA number takes into account paths and tracks.
Mapillary allows you to upload images at different times (dates) and
compare them, so unlike Google you can have 2 photos taken at the same
spot. Unlike Google most Mapillary photos are not spheres.

m.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

[Marc M.]

Le 20.06.20 à 12:28, Andy Mabbett a écrit :
> Were you not aware that your contributions to OSM, and Mapilary, are
> already under an open licence, which allows anyone - including
> Facebook - to reuse them, even commercially?

having the right to download images is not at all the same thing
as, for example, having access to ip/cookies/timestamp
and a great deep learning database.

for some people, contributing to increasing FB profiling,
even with a open license, is not the same thing as contributing
to a open license database not owned by a gafam member.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

[Mark Wagner]

On Fri, 19 Jun 2020 23:45:57 +0200
Florian Lohoff  wrote:

> Hi Nick,
> 
> On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 11:47:01AM +, Nick Whitelegg wrote:
> > 
> > (Disclaimer: I am the developer of said project)
> > 
> > You can login using your OSM account.  
> 
> The issue is that once you start pushing stuff into any projects your
> storage expenses will kill you pretty fast.
> 
> https://www.backblaze.com/b2/cloud-storage-pricing.html
> 
> Thats 0.005$ per GB and Month. Thats *12 *1024 for a Terrabyte. Thats
> something like 60$ per Year per Terrabyte which sounds reasonable
> concerning disk costs. Costs per disk per lifetime and infrastructure
> to connect it to the IP Network.
> 
> Since late May i have produced:
> 
> flo@p4:/scratch/local/mapillary$ du -sh .
> 285G  .
> flo@p4:/scratch/local/mapillary$ find . -type f -iname "*.jpg" | wc -l
> 97407
> 
> So just pushing worth like 2 Weeks of taking street imagery will cost
> the Hoster about 20$ per year from now on. And i have pushed multiple
> terrabytes to Mapillary since 2014.
> 
> And thats just me. Put that to a global OSM perspective and you need
> serious funding for storing all that imagery, let alone the CPU cycles
> for your compute vision to blur faces and number plates.

Serious funding?  Yes.  Outrageous funding?  No.

Rough estimate:

* The CIA World Factbook says there are about 64 000 000 km of roads in
  the world.
* Google Street View takes 100 photos per km.
* A photosphere from my tablet, compressed using WebP at 50% quality
  takes 2.7 MB.

This is about 17 280 TB of storage to cover the entire world at Google
Street View quality.  It would cost $215 000 per month to store in
Amazon S3, or $89 000 per month in Backblaze B2.  It's well within the
capacity of someone like the Wikimedia Foundation.

-- 
Mark

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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

[Andy Mabbett]

On Thu, 18 Jun 2020 at 23:45, Paul Johnson  wrote:
>
> Great.  How's this affect those of us who trust Facebook about as far as we 
> can throw it?

Very little.

Were you not aware that your contributions to OSM, and Mapilary, are
already under an open licence, which allows anyone - including
Facebook - to reuse them, even commercially?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

[Nick Whitelegg]

Hello Florian,

Yes - I have to admit that's partly why I've been focusing on walking trails 
only in my own project (aside from the fact that I have a particular interest 
in waling trails), the storage requirements are not going to ramp up so quickly.

I have to admit I haven't considered how exactly a fully open source StreetView 
would be funded - other people would be better-placed than myself to think of 
solutions to this - but was just floating the idea as a nice-to-have.

Nick



From: Florian Lohoff
Sent: Friday, June 19, 2020 22:45
To: Nick Whitelegg
Cc: OSM Talk
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary


Hi Nick,

On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 11:47:01AM +, Nick Whitelegg wrote:
>
> (Disclaimer: I am the developer of said project)
>
> You can login using your OSM account.

The issue is that once you start pushing stuff into any projects your
storage expenses will kill you pretty fast.

https://www.backblaze.com/b2/cloud-storage-pricing.html

Thats 0.005$ per GB and Month. Thats *12 *1024 for a Terrabyte. Thats
something like 60$ per Year per Terrabyte which sounds reasonable
concerning disk costs. Costs per disk per lifetime and infrastructure to
connect it to the IP Network.

Since late May i have produced:

flo@p4:/scratch/local/mapillary$ du -sh .
285G.
flo@p4:/scratch/local/mapillary$ find . -type f -iname "*.jpg" | wc -l
97407

So just pushing worth like 2 Weeks of taking street imagery will cost the
Hoster about 20$ per year from now on. And i have pushed multiple terrabytes
to Mapillary since 2014.

And thats just me. Put that to a global OSM perspective and you need
serious funding for storing all that imagery, let alone the CPU cycles
for your compute vision to blur faces and number plates.

And as i have done something like OpenStreetcam 10 years ago for my personal
imagery without the fancy blurring stuff. And i have worked for Hosting
companys so i know the deal.

This is why I think personally that the Facebook deal is the only
viable option for getting long term funding for storage. Somebody
has to pay for it. And i dont see a real businesscase which will pay
up for all the random Dashboards people store into your Dataset.

So either Facebook supports this service or we are toast.

The only option would then be OSMF funding but you may have a glimpse
at the Mapillary numbers and prepare some fundraising.

Flo
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

[Florian Lohoff]

Hi Nick,

On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 11:47:01AM +, Nick Whitelegg wrote:
> 
> (Disclaimer: I am the developer of said project)
> 
> You can login using your OSM account.

The issue is that once you start pushing stuff into any projects your
storage expenses will kill you pretty fast.

https://www.backblaze.com/b2/cloud-storage-pricing.html

Thats 0.005$ per GB and Month. Thats *12 *1024 for a Terrabyte. Thats
something like 60$ per Year per Terrabyte which sounds reasonable
concerning disk costs. Costs per disk per lifetime and infrastructure to 
connect it to the IP Network.

Since late May i have produced:

flo@p4:/scratch/local/mapillary$ du -sh .
285G.
flo@p4:/scratch/local/mapillary$ find . -type f -iname "*.jpg" | wc -l
97407

So just pushing worth like 2 Weeks of taking street imagery will cost the
Hoster about 20$ per year from now on. And i have pushed multiple terrabytes 
to Mapillary since 2014.

And thats just me. Put that to a global OSM perspective and you need
serious funding for storing all that imagery, let alone the CPU cycles
for your compute vision to blur faces and number plates.

And as i have done something like OpenStreetcam 10 years ago for my personal
imagery without the fancy blurring stuff. And i have worked for Hosting 
companys so i know the deal.

This is why I think personally that the Facebook deal is the only
viable option for getting long term funding for storage. Somebody
has to pay for it. And i dont see a real businesscase which will pay
up for all the random Dashboards people store into your Dataset.

So either Facebook supports this service or we are toast.

The only option would then be OSMF funding but you may have a glimpse
at the Mapillary numbers and prepare some fundraising.

Flo
-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

[Florian Lohoff]

Hola,

On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 03:17:31PM +0200, Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote:
> > Openstreetcam is pretty much "disfunct" from my perspective. There are
> > tons of bugs people opened because of their tracks not beeing
> > processing. Same for me. Twitter feed dead for a year. It looks pretty
> > much abandoned since end of 2019 - Since early June serious problems
> > processing tracks and uploads.
> >
> Can you link some of this bugs?
> 
> I found https://github.com/openstreetcam but I see nothing about blocked 
> processing.
> 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenStreetCam is not describing is as 
> dying, what 
> should be changed if it is becoming defunct

- I have uploads hanging in processing since end of May, also some uploads
  which are finished are still showing upload.
- Since early June there is no reverse geocoding
- No page lists contact informations
- Twitter account dead for 12+ Month
- Pretty much "nothing" happening in the git repos since end of last year

So bugs, operational down or broken and noone to really talk to.

After i opened a bug put in my tracks not beeing processed there
were voices says that never anything comes back into the bug reports
but some bugs disappear magically.

Comparing that to other projects i am contributing this is
dysfunctional.

I dont know what happened behind the scenes but it feels as when
Telenav lost interest and grab "took over" with pretty much nothin
in their hands.

Flo
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

[Michael Reichert]

Hi,

Am 19/06/2020 um 16.06 schrieb Simon Poole:
> In any case doing that from scratch would be a real pain. I believe the
> OSC stack is now actually all OSS which would be a far better starting
> point -if- sustainable funding could be built around the whole thing.

I looked at the GitHub repositories of OpenStreetCam about two weeks ago
because I remembered that someone having claimed a couple of years ago
OSC to be open source with some minor exceptions.

https://github.com/openstreetcam

I found the source code of the Android and iOS app and the website but
no code for a backend on a server. A deeper look into the repository of
the Android app points out that the publice source code lags behind the
release in Google Play and some of its dependencies make it unsuitable
for F-Droid [1].
https://github.com/openstreetcam/android/issues/153
https://github.com/openstreetcam/android/issues/113
https://github.com/openstreetcam/android/issues/149

Best regards

Michael


[1] I consider the people running F-Droid to be as picky w.r.t. building
things from source as people at Debian are. 



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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

[Nick Whitelegg]

>One of the key functionalities required for such a project to be useable in 
>countries with developed privacy regulation is the >ability to automatically 
>pixelate relevant parts of the images with a high degree of reliability. It 
>took Mapillary literally years >to get that nailed down and bring it to the 
>level of functionality it is at now.


>Which is one of the reasons why, way back when Mapillary started, I was 
>sceptical about the sustainability because the >part of the product the 
>detection is required don't have a real associated revenue stream (except if 
>you a google, or ... and >can use it in one way or the other to sell ads).


>In any case doing that from scratch would be a real pain. I believe the OSC 
>stack is now actually all OSS which would be a >far better starting point -if- 
>sustainable funding could be built around the whole thing.

I've looked at the OSC github repo from time to time. Bit hard to see exactly 
what's happening but I understand it's now owned by someone other than Telenav, 
It _looks_ like the latest commit is client-side only. Strugging to find any 
server-side code there.

However, if you go back to commit 1, there appears to be a fully open-source 
application with a PHP back end, though I haven't analysed the code in any 
detail - I can just see it's got database interaction in there.

OSC I think only allows you to navigate along an uploaded set of photos, or at 
least it did last time I looked.

Maybe the way forward (particularly given both projects are PHP-based) would be 
to merge some of the stuff I've been working on in OpenTrailView with the first 
commit of OSC. The main question that needs to be asked for now I think is: is 
there sufficient interest in developing a fully open-source StreetView-like 
application within the OSM community, and elsewhere, to make such a project 
worthwhile?

In terms of the critical privacy issues, there are some interesting projects on 
GitHub regarding number plate and face blurring, for example
https://github.com/understand-ai/anonymizer

No idea how good it actually is, but I have a number of panoramas with both 
faces and number plates so I have material to test it with.

Maybe OSC have done some stuff here, haven't looked I have to admit.


Nick










From: Simon Poole 
Sent: 19 June 2020 15:06
To: talk@openstreetmap.org 
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary



Am 19.06.2020 um 13:47 schrieb Nick Whitelegg:

(Disclaimer: I am the developer of said project)

One of the key functionalities required for such a project to be useable in 
countries with developed privacy regulation is the ability to automatically 
pixelate relevant parts of the images with a high degree of reliability. It 
took Mapillary literally years to get that nailed down and bring it to the 
level of functionality it is at now.


Which is one of the reasons why, way back when Mapillary started, I was 
sceptical about the sustainability because the part of the product the 
detection is required don't have a real associated revenue stream (except if 
you a google, or ... and can use it in one way or the other to sell ads).


In any case doing that from scratch would be a real pain. I believe the OSC 
stack is now actually all OSS which would be a far better starting point -if- 
sustainable funding could be built around the whole thing.


Simon


PS: naturally the whole reason for OSC was a business dispute that is now moot 
because Mapillary is opening up its images for commercial use too.


Those of you looking for 100% FOSS software and who are focused on 360 degree 
photography of off-road routes (walking trails and so on) might want to 
consider OpenTrailView (https://opentrailview.org). Do bear in mind that it is 
in the early stages of development, so don't expect Mapillary-style UX just 
yet, and there is only a small amount of imagery (largely southern England at 
the moment plus a few around Heidelberg for probably obvious reasons) but it is 
in active development and I do have a possible collaboration with another 
project (more on that later).

OpenTrailVIew also uses underlying OpenStreetMap data to auto-connect 
panoramas, using GeoJSON Path Finder 
(github.com/perliedman/geojson-path-finder), though, due to server capacity 
constraints, this only works at present in Europe and Turkey (though requests 
for other countries welcome, though note that if they are for large and/or 
highly-populated countries countries such as the USA, China or Brazil I would 
have to restrict it to a region).

You can login using your OSM account.

Nick

From: Florian Lohoff <mailto:f...@zz.de>
Sent: 19 June 2020 07:58
To: Niels Elgaard Larsen <mailto:elga...@agol.dk>
Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org<mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org> 
<mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org>
Subje

Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

[Simon Poole]

Am 19.06.2020 um 13:47 schrieb Nick Whitelegg:
>
> (Disclaimer: I am the developer of said project)

One of the key functionalities required for such a project to be useable
in countries with developed privacy regulation is the ability to
automatically pixelate relevant parts of the images with a high degree
of reliability. It took Mapillary literally years to get that nailed
down and bring it to the level of functionality it is at now.


Which is one of the reasons why, way back when Mapillary started, I was
sceptical about the sustainability because the part of the product the
detection is required don't have a real associated revenue stream
(except if you a google, or ... and can use it in one way or the other
to sell ads).


In any case doing that from scratch would be a real pain. I believe the
OSC stack is now actually all OSS which would be a far better starting
point -if- sustainable funding could be built around the whole thing.


Simon


PS: naturally the whole reason for OSC was a business dispute that is
now moot because Mapillary is opening up its images for commercial use too.


>
> Those of you looking for 100% FOSS software and who are focused on 360
> degree photography of off-road routes (walking trails and so on) might
> want to consider OpenTrailView (https://opentrailview.org). Do bear in
> mind that it is in the early stages of development, so don't expect
> Mapillary-style UX just yet, and there is only a small amount of
> imagery (largely southern England at the moment plus a few around
> Heidelberg for probably obvious reasons) but it is in active
> development and I do have a possible collaboration with another
> project (more on that later).
>
> OpenTrailVIew also uses underlying OpenStreetMap data to auto-connect
> panoramas, using GeoJSON Path Finder
> (github.com/perliedman/geojson-path-finder), though, due to server
> capacity constraints, this only works at present in Europe and Turkey
> (though requests for other countries welcome, though note that if they
> are for large and/or highly-populated countries countries such as the
> USA, China or Brazil I would have to restrict it to a region).
>
> You can login using your OSM account.
>
> Nick
> 
> *From:* Florian Lohoff 
> *Sent:* 19 June 2020 07:58
> *To:* Niels Elgaard Larsen 
> *Cc:* talk@openstreetmap.org 
> *Subject:* Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping
> company Mapillary
>  
> On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 01:21:59AM +0200, Niels Elgaard Larsen wrote:
> > Paul Johnson:
> > > Great.  How's this affect those of us who trust Facebook about as
> far as we can throw it?
> >
> >
> > Use openstreetcam
>
> Openstreetcam is pretty much "disfunct" from my perspective. There are
> tons of bugs people opened because of their tracks not beeing
> processing. Same for me. Twitter feed dead for a year. It looks pretty
> much abandoned since end of 2019 - Since early June serious problems
> processing tracks and uploads.
>
> And for the me focus on Car driveable streets makes it useless.
>
> Flo
> -- 
> Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de
>     UTF-8 Test: The  ran after a , but the  ran away
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk


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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

[Nick Whitelegg]

Hello Martin,

In theory, it could work in urban areas as well as off-road. There's nothing 
technically preventing it doing so, it's just that up to now I have chosen to 
focus on off-road.

However if there's a real interest an alternate fully-FOSS StreetView like 
application as an alternative to Mapillary and others, then I'm quite happy to 
take street panoramas.

Nick



From: Martin Koppenhoefer 
Sent: 19 June 2020 12:56
To: Nick Whitelegg 
Cc: OSM Talk 
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary



sent from a phone

> On 19. Jun 2020, at 13:51, Nick Whitelegg  wrote:
>
> Those of you looking for 100% FOSS software and who are focused on 360 degree 
> photography of off-road routes (walking trails and so on) might want to 
> consider OpenTrailView (https://opentrailview.org).


has it a general scope, or is it only suitable for pictures “off road” as its 
name suggests?

Cheers Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

[James]

Might want to refine your searching skills:

https://github.com/openstreetcam/openstreetcam.org/issues/254

On Fri., Jun. 19, 2020, 9:21 a.m. Mateusz Konieczny via talk, <
talk@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

>
>
>
> Jun 19, 2020, 08:58 by f...@zz.de:
>
> On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 01:21:59AM +0200, Niels Elgaard Larsen wrote:
>
> Paul Johnson:
> > Great.  How's this affect those of us who trust Facebook about as far as
> we can throw it?
>
>
> Use openstreetcam
>
>
> Openstreetcam is pretty much "disfunct" from my perspective. There are
> tons of bugs people opened because of their tracks not beeing
> processing. Same for me. Twitter feed dead for a year. It looks pretty
> much abandoned since end of 2019 - Since early June serious problems
> processing tracks and uploads.
>
> Can you link some of this bugs?
>
> I found https://github.com/openstreetcam but I see nothing about blocked
> processing.
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenStreetCam is not describing is as
> dying, what
> should be changed if it is becoming defunct
> ___
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

Jun 19, 2020, 08:58 by f...@zz.de:

> On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 01:21:59AM +0200, Niels Elgaard Larsen wrote:
>
>> Paul Johnson:
>> > Great.  How's this affect those of us who trust Facebook about as far as 
>> > we can throw it?
>>
>>
>> Use openstreetcam
>>
>
> Openstreetcam is pretty much "disfunct" from my perspective. There are
> tons of bugs people opened because of their tracks not beeing
> processing. Same for me. Twitter feed dead for a year. It looks pretty
> much abandoned since end of 2019 - Since early June serious problems
> processing tracks and uploads.
>
Can you link some of this bugs?

I found https://github.com/openstreetcam but I see nothing about blocked 
processing.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenStreetCam is not describing is as 
dying, what 
should be changed if it is becoming defunct
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 19. Jun 2020, at 13:51, Nick Whitelegg  wrote:
> 
> Those of you looking for 100% FOSS software and who are focused on 360 degree 
> photography of off-road routes (walking trails and so on) might want to 
> consider OpenTrailView (https://opentrailview.org).


has it a general scope, or is it only suitable for pictures “off road” as its 
name suggests?

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

[Nick Whitelegg]

(Disclaimer: I am the developer of said project)

Those of you looking for 100% FOSS software and who are focused on 360 degree 
photography of off-road routes (walking trails and so on) might want to 
consider OpenTrailView (https://opentrailview.org). Do bear in mind that it is 
in the early stages of development, so don't expect Mapillary-style UX just 
yet, and there is only a small amount of imagery (largely southern England at 
the moment plus a few around Heidelberg for probably obvious reasons) but it is 
in active development and I do have a possible collaboration with another 
project (more on that later).

OpenTrailVIew also uses underlying OpenStreetMap data to auto-connect 
panoramas, using GeoJSON Path Finder 
(github.com/perliedman/geojson-path-finder), though, due to server capacity 
constraints, this only works at present in Europe and Turkey (though requests 
for other countries welcome, though note that if they are for large and/or 
highly-populated countries countries such as the USA, China or Brazil I would 
have to restrict it to a region).

You can login using your OSM account.

Nick

From: Florian Lohoff 
Sent: 19 June 2020 07:58
To: Niels Elgaard Larsen 
Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org 
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 01:21:59AM +0200, Niels Elgaard Larsen wrote:
> Paul Johnson:
> > Great.  How's this affect those of us who trust Facebook about as far as we 
> > can throw it?
>
>
> Use openstreetcam

Openstreetcam is pretty much "disfunct" from my perspective. There are
tons of bugs people opened because of their tracks not beeing
processing. Same for me. Twitter feed dead for a year. It looks pretty
much abandoned since end of 2019 - Since early June serious problems
processing tracks and uploads.

And for the me focus on Car driveable streets makes it useless.

Flo
--
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UTF-8 Test: The  ran after a , but the  ran away
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

[Florian Lohoff]

On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 01:21:59AM +0200, Niels Elgaard Larsen wrote:
> Paul Johnson:
> > Great.  How's this affect those of us who trust Facebook about as far as we 
> > can throw it?
> 
> 
> Use openstreetcam

Openstreetcam is pretty much "disfunct" from my perspective. There are
tons of bugs people opened because of their tracks not beeing
processing. Same for me. Twitter feed dead for a year. It looks pretty
much abandoned since end of 2019 - Since early June serious problems
processing tracks and uploads.

And for the me focus on Car driveable streets makes it useless.

Flo
-- 
Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de
UTF-8 Test: The  ran after a , but the  ran away


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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

[James]

Openstreetcam was transferred to grab taxi, images have stopped processing
and devs say they are working on back end but project seems dead

On Thu., Jun. 18, 2020, 7:27 p.m. Paul Johnson,  wrote:

> Doesn't OpenStreetCam have similar corporate ownership problems, with the
> additional problematic aspect that the toolchain's been neglected since
> Telenav cut 'em loose?
>
> On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 6:23 PM Niels Elgaard Larsen 
> wrote:
>
>> Paul Johnson:
>> > Great.  How's this affect those of us who trust Facebook about as far
>> as we can throw it?
>>
>>
>> Use openstreetcam
>>
>>
>> Start downloading all you images from Mapillary, if you did not keep a
>> copy-
>>
>>
>> But I think most important, use existing Mapillary photos to improve OSM
>> with speed
>> limits, surfaces, lit, etc.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >
>> > On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 5:37 PM Sérgio V. > > > wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-facebook-deals-mapillary/facebook-acquires-crowdsourced-mapping-company-mapillary-idUKKBN23P3N6
>> >
>> >
>> > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>> >
>> > Sérgio - http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/smaprs
>> >
>> > ___
>> > talk mailing list
>> > talk@openstreetmap.org 
>> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>> >
>> >
>> > ___
>> > talk mailing list
>> > talk@openstreetmap.org
>> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> Niels Elgaard Larsen
>>
>> ___
>> talk mailing list
>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
> ___
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

[Andrew Harvey]

+ Jan's diary post https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/jesolem/diary/393358

On Fri, 19 Jun 2020 at 09:22, Shaun McDonald 
wrote:

> Thanks for the heads up.
>
> They’ve also posted a blog post about it:
> https://blog.mapillary.com/news/2020/06/18/Mapillary-joins-Facebook.html
>
> Supposedly no change from a mapping perspective. Commercial use now
> allowed for free.
>
> Shaun
>
> On 18 Jun 2020, at 23:32, Sérgio V.  wrote:
>
>
> https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-facebook-deals-mapillary/facebook-acquires-crowdsourced-mapping-company-mapillary-idUKKBN23P3N6
>
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> Sérgio - http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/smaprs
> ___
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> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

[Paul Johnson]

Doesn't OpenStreetCam have similar corporate ownership problems, with the
additional problematic aspect that the toolchain's been neglected since
Telenav cut 'em loose?

On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 6:23 PM Niels Elgaard Larsen 
wrote:

> Paul Johnson:
> > Great.  How's this affect those of us who trust Facebook about as far as
> we can throw it?
>
>
> Use openstreetcam
>
>
> Start downloading all you images from Mapillary, if you did not keep a
> copy-
>
>
> But I think most important, use existing Mapillary photos to improve OSM
> with speed
> limits, surfaces, lit, etc.
>
>
>
>
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 5:37 PM Sérgio V.  > > wrote:
> >
> >
> https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-facebook-deals-mapillary/facebook-acquires-crowdsourced-mapping-company-mapillary-idUKKBN23P3N6
> >
> >
> > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> >
> > Sérgio - http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/smaprs
> >
> > ___
> > talk mailing list
> > talk@openstreetmap.org 
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> >
> >
> > ___
> > talk mailing list
> > talk@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> >
>
>
> --
> Niels Elgaard Larsen
>
> ___
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>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

[Niels Elgaard Larsen]

Paul Johnson:
> Great.  How's this affect those of us who trust Facebook about as far as we 
> can throw it?


Use openstreetcam


Start downloading all you images from Mapillary, if you did not keep a copy-


But I think most important, use existing Mapillary photos to improve OSM with 
speed
limits, surfaces, lit, etc.




> 
> On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 5:37 PM Sérgio V.  > wrote:
> 
> 
> https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-facebook-deals-mapillary/facebook-acquires-crowdsourced-mapping-company-mapillary-idUKKBN23P3N6
> 
> 
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> 
> Sérgio - http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/smaprs
> 
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org 
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> 
> 
> ___
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> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> 


-- 
Niels Elgaard Larsen

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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

[Shaun McDonald]

Thanks for the heads up.

They’ve also posted a blog post about it: 
https://blog.mapillary.com/news/2020/06/18/Mapillary-joins-Facebook.html 


Supposedly no change from a mapping perspective. Commercial use now allowed for 
free.

Shaun

> On 18 Jun 2020, at 23:32, Sérgio V.  wrote:
> 
> https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-facebook-deals-mapillary/facebook-acquires-crowdsourced-mapping-company-mapillary-idUKKBN23P3N6
>  
> 
> 
> 
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> Sérgio - http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/smaprs 
> ___
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> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk 
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

[Jeff McKenna]

Thanks for sharing this Sérgio.

-jeff



--
Jeff McKenna
MapServer Consulting and Training Services
co-founder of FOSS4G
http://gatewaygeo.com/



On 2020-06-18 7:32 p.m., Sérgio V. wrote:

https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-facebook-deals-mapillary/facebook-acquires-crowdsourced-mapping-company-mapillary-idUKKBN23P3N6


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Sérgio - http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/smaprs


_



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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

[Paul Johnson]

Great.  How's this affect those of us who trust Facebook about as far as we
can throw it?

On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 5:37 PM Sérgio V.  wrote:

>
> https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-facebook-deals-mapillary/facebook-acquires-crowdsourced-mapping-company-mapillary-idUKKBN23P3N6
>
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> Sérgio - http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/smaprs
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
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[OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

[Sérgio V .]

https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-facebook-deals-mapillary/facebook-acquires-crowdsourced-mapping-company-mapillary-idUKKBN23P3N6



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Sérgio - http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/smaprs
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