Re: [OSM-talk] Google StreetView From Bikes
--- On Fri, 31/7/09, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: But the point I was trying to make was more that of 'We get stopped and told we have to ask permission' while Goggle stick two fingers up and just carry on regardless. It is about time there was a level playing field, and just because one can throw silly amounts of money at a problem to make it go away should not be acceptable :( From what I understand the rules are as much about intent as they are about anything else, google's intent is to photograph streets for use on the web, they aren't intentionally going out of their way to invade privacy. If you were to do the same thing I doubt you'd get stopped either, if on the other hand you were specifically aiming to invade privacy that is another matter. So from a legal point of view I don't think there is an issue, morally however it is a lot more merky but there is no laws specifically about it. On the other hand people have filled legal complaints about them doing street view down private access roads and they should be taken to task over these things. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google StreetView From Bikes
John Smith wrote: --- On Fri, 31/7/09, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: But the point I was trying to make was more that of 'We get stopped and told we have to ask permission' while Goggle stick two fingers up and just carry on regardless. It is about time there was a level playing field, and just because one can throw silly amounts of money at a problem to make it go away should not be acceptable :( From what I understand the rules are as much about intent as they are about anything else, google's intent is to photograph streets for use on the web, they aren't intentionally going out of their way to invade privacy. If you were to do the same thing I doubt you'd get stopped either, if on the other hand you were specifically aiming to invade privacy that is another matter. So from a legal point of view I don't think there is an issue, morally however it is a lot more merky but there is no laws specifically about it. On the other hand people have filled legal complaints about them doing street view down private access roads and they should be taken to task over these things. Yep ... But they COULD achieve their aim without pushing the camera up to a height that provides a view that the normal man in the street would not easily be able to achieve. They are providing a view of the world that is intentionally more inclusive than is necessary. So from my perspective they ARE intentionally going out of their way to invade privacy by showing views that are simply not normally visible? If we want to see what is over a wall we can now go to google . -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google StreetView From Bikes
--- On Fri, 31/7/09, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: more inclusive than is necessary. So from my perspective they ARE intentionally going out of their way to invade privacy by showing views that are simply not normally visible? If we want to see what is over a wall we can now go to google . Maybe so, but I doubt the law would cover such things in most places, however people can get laws changed and they could in effect be retro active simply because the information is widely viewable. However as is I don't think there is any laws that would cover this, most data is being collected on public property etc so yea it comes down to intent and their primary intent isn't the same thing as a peeping tom even if the outcome is the same. You didn't intend to kill someone but they still died, is the difference between man slaughter and murder. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google StreetView From Bikes
their kit looks quite bulky. I've got just one videocamera (and no LIDAR) fitted, and it all mounts on handlebars with room to spare for other stuff. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Georeference_video Maybe the big tricycle is needed to lift the cameras up above the traffic? other people could probably use just one smartphone to do all 3 functions (camera, storage, and GPS)? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google StreetView From Bikes
2009/7/30 OJ W ojwli...@googlemail.com: their kit looks quite bulky. I've got just one videocamera (and no LIDAR) fitted, and it all mounts on handlebars with room to spare for other stuff. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Georeference_video Maybe the big tricycle is needed to lift the cameras up above the traffic? I guess they are recording in higher resolutions. The problem with webcams is, that you can't read the signs (e.g. one of your photos: http://dev.openstreetmap.org/~ojw/StreetPhotos/frames/001500.jpg it's even unpossible to read the number plate of the motorbike in the foreground). cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google StreetView From Bikes
--- On Thu, 30/7/09, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: Maybe the big tricycle is needed to lift the cameras up above the traffic? I guess they are recording in higher resolutions. The problem with I don't know what res street view in general is but you can't read most signs. Some of the newer mobile phones are getting HD resolutions. The reason for most of the bulk is a computer, and I bet batteries run everything, to correlate the images from multiple cameras at the same time and geotagging it properly etc. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google StreetView From Bikes
John Smith wrote: Sent: 30 July 2009 10:42 AM To: OJ W; m...@koppenhoefer.com Cc: OSM Talk Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Google StreetView From Bikes --- On Thu, 30/7/09, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: Maybe the big tricycle is needed to lift the cameras up above the traffic? I guess they are recording in higher resolutions. The problem with I don't know what res street view in general is but you can't read most signs. Some of the newer mobile phones are getting HD resolutions. The reason for most of the bulk is a computer, and I bet batteries run everything, to correlate the images from multiple cameras at the same time and geotagging it properly etc. The video of the trike when it was first seen in Rome back in May suggests it carries a small generator (red), perhaps just to charge batteries when stopped rather than run the whole setup? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAsfEsK5t2Y Cheers Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google StreetView From Bikes
OJ W wrote: Maybe the big tricycle is needed to lift the cameras up above the traffic? THAT I think is the big mistake that Google made. Pushing the camera head up so that it looks OVER security walls and hedges is what annoys people the most. If a person has to use a ladder to obtain a picture then it's a violation of privacy, but if Google do it is a 'public service' - usual sod the law arrogance :( -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google StreetView From Bikes
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 11:04 AM, Lester Caineles...@lsces.co.uk wrote: OJ W wrote: Maybe the big tricycle is needed to lift the cameras up above the traffic? THAT I think is the big mistake that Google made. Pushing the camera head up so that it looks OVER security walls and hedges is what annoys people the most. If a person has to use a ladder to obtain a picture then it's a violation of privacy, but if Google do it is a 'public service' - usual sod the law arrogance :( well the [1.3m above ground] alternative is lots of photos of the van in front of you it's probably fascinating to have a streetview showing all the drivers making phone calls and eating breakfast while overtaking, but not much use for mapping... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google StreetView From Bikes
Yann Coupin wrote: The problem is that your reasoning doesn't take bus/coach/hgv into account. You're probably going to be as high in each of those vehicules as Google's cams are... Not on many of the private roads that are now being photographed but from which large vehicles are banned - even when incorrectly directed by incompetence on the part of GPS systems that do not understand that a 6 foot wide road will not take an 8 ft wide lorry ;) The last 'accident' not far from here needed a crane to remove the vehicle in question :) Simply filming and saying 'we will remove pictures if you want' is just arrogance that should not be condoned. Just like their copying of books without actually getting permission from the copyright owner! Le 30 juil. 09 à 12:04, Lester Caine a écrit : OJ W wrote: Maybe the big tricycle is needed to lift the cameras up above the traffic? THAT I think is the big mistake that Google made. Pushing the camera head up so that it looks OVER security walls and hedges is what annoys people the most. If a person has to use a ladder to obtain a picture then it's a violation of privacy, but if Google do it is a 'public service' - usual sod the law arrogance :( -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google StreetView From Bikes
2009/7/30 Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk: Simply filming and saying 'we will remove pictures if you want' is just arrogance that should not be condoned. What's wrong with it? Where's the exact line dividing looking with naked eye and filming? Since a camera is a set of light sensors and lenses, if I'm using an N800 internet tablet with the ambient light sensor, does that count as filming? Should people with prothetic eyes be ordered to close eyes when they pass near a private property? The idea of google streetview infringing anybody's privacy is so misled. Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google StreetView From Bikes
Hi, andrzej zaborowski wrote: The idea of google streetview infringing anybody's privacy is so misled. I'm sure there is lots of intelligent argument on both sides of the fence and I have no desire of going into the details here. But on a more general note - I think that someone's privacy is infringed as soon as that person feels that their privacy has been infringed. Much like you are insulting someone if they feel insulted by what you say. It is not something that can be judged objectively. You can only, for purposes of lawmaking, set certain limits to which people have to endure infringement of their privacy (e.g. you may feel your privacy infringed by people walking down the road and looking at your house but that doesn't mean you can sue them). But that doesn't mean that by definition looking at other people's houses does not infringe their privacy. It is not something you can argue away with logic. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google StreetView From Bikes
I meant to send this to the list As an idea for 'openstreetviewbike' you could use a single camera pointing straight up with a rotating mirror above it in order to capture in all directions at once. The velocity of the bike would probably be OK to still capture pictures with close enough proximity to be useful to OSM. You might want to use some for of digital shutter/sports mode to combat bluring. If you were taking discrete pictures (rather than full video) a simple switch could be used to tag each 'picture' with a GPS location, and/or to cause a PC/Netbook/etc to store the image to disk. Simon ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google StreetView From Bikes
I meant to send this to the list... What's wrong with it? Where's the exact line dividing looking with naked eye and filming? I think that the difference here is that they make the images available for others to view. There can be a great difference between taking a picture of a drunk, and posting the same picture on the web (especially if you call it 'drunk.jpg'). As to the elevation of the camera head, I think they also need the multiple cameras to be close to a point source (rather on the sides of the car) so that they can stitch the images together. I assume that the boxes below the camera were LIDAR, so the cyclist probably doesn't want to be hit with that all day either. The positioning of the GPS antenna seemed a bit odd, one would think on top of the pole would be better (unless they are photographing upwards as well). I think that the cars also collect GSM tower IDs/timing/signal strength and 802.11 MAC/signal strength, as these are used in their mobile applications for augmenting position. http://code.google.com/apis/gears/geolocation_network_protocol.html Cheers, Simon. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google StreetView From Bikes
As an idea for 'openstreetviewbike' you could use a single camera pointing straight up with a rotating mirror above it in order to capture in all directions at once. A colleague suggested using a hi-res camera shooting upwards onto a fixed multi-angle mirror. How much resolution do you need for OSM? Maybe with larger mirrors pointing to the side and smaller ones to the front and back. If you shoot 10MPixels and loose 1/2 of those to 'blank' areas, wouldn't that be enough? You could de-multiplex the images using a fairly simple imagemagick script. A Canon EOS Rebel, a few mirrors and some glue... might be an interesting experiment. Simon. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google StreetView From Bikes
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 5:51 PM, si...@mungewell.org wrote: A Canon EOS Rebel, a few mirrors and some glue... might be an interesting experiment. The Canon 30D (for example) is rated for 100,000 shutter cycles. If you take a shot every 1-10 seconds, you'll be able to go for roughly 6 straight hours before the shutter will fail. That's why Google uses high-res digital video cameras running on Firewire on their rigs. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google StreetView From Bikes
On Thu, 30 Jul 2009, Ian Dees wrote: That's why Google uses high-res digital video cameras running on Firewire on their rigs. I was more expecting the Elphel board design ;) Using 20MP kodak's CCDs like they use in their book digitizing stuff. Stefan ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google StreetView From Bikes
--- On Thu, 30/7/09, si...@mungewell.org si...@mungewell.org wrote: What's wrong with it? Where's the exact line dividing looking with naked eye and filming? I think that the difference here is that they make the images available for others to view. There can be a great difference between taking a picture of a drunk, and posting the same picture on the web (especially if you call it 'drunk.jpg'). Apart from broadcasting internationally, the problem is computers generally don't forget. Something that may be socially ok now, might not be in future, or legally even. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google StreetView From Bikes
On Thu, 30 Jul 2009 19:22:23 -0500 Ian Dees ian.d...@gmail.com wrote: The Canon 30D (for example) is rated for 100,000 shutter cycles. If you take a shot every 1-10 seconds, you'll be able to go for roughly 6 straight hours before the shutter will fail. OK so how nerdy am I, just spent an hour (or so) reading up on this and I don't even have a DSLR. ;-) 1). The shutter fail, is apparently more to do with the 'lift mirror' action than the 'rolling curtain' shutters. No indication on how many triggers before the rolling shutters fail... 2). 'Better' DSLRs have a live preview mode where mirror is lifted and image is displayed on screen rather than in optical view finder. 3). 'Silent mode' can use an electronic 1st stage shutter, followed by a mechanical 2nd stage. You can also get the live preview across a USB cable, although I didn't find any commentary on the maximum resolution this can be at, only the fps. Suggestion was that it's mjpeg images so I suspect it is low res. http://sourceforge.net/projects/eos-movrec/ Simon ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google StreetView From Bikes
John Smith wrote: --- On Thu, 30/7/09, si...@mungewell.org si...@mungewell.org wrote: What's wrong with it? Where's the exact line dividing looking with naked eye and filming? I think that the difference here is that they make the images available for others to view. There can be a great difference between taking a picture of a drunk, and posting the same picture on the web (especially if you call it 'drunk.jpg'). Apart from broadcasting internationally, the problem is computers generally don't forget. Something that may be socially ok now, might not be in future, or legally even. But the point I was trying to make was more that of 'We get stopped and told we have to ask permission' while Goggle stick two fingers up and just carry on regardless. It is about time there was a level playing field, and just because one can throw silly amounts of money at a problem to make it go away should not be acceptable :( -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Google StreetView From Bikes
This is very interesting and might be useful if at some point we get Google to open up the license of their street view images: http://fivebells.livejournal.com/24977.html In other news, how's openstreetphoto doing? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
